Barnes is soon to rotate. But we have a similar effect forced it way right to the top of the meta lately with Spiteful Summoner. I have been playing Spiteful Priest for standard rank 5 this season, got there without too much effort, the deck is quite powerful. However, I can honestly say I disliked the experience. The deck lacks answers, with the exception of Duskbreaker, which you can indeed play four of sometimes (three is really quite common) to really crush the will to live of any zoo deck or similar.
With the lack of answers you are looking to curve out and get ahead, or atleast remain in touch, as you aren't going to be to flip the board, heading into turn six. You then play Spiteful and win from there...or not, if they actually have an answer. Zero decision making, zero anything. Winning is no fun with this kind of deck. Its the kind of deck the phrase "RNG clown-fiesta" was made for...mulligan is everything, draw is everything, but you run no draw, so not draw, but actaully topdecking, from turn 2.
I had one fun game on my climb to rank 5...one! It was against a cubelock and I drew my mindcontrols early. I went second so saved the coin in order to mindcontrol turns 9 and 10 - hoping to line up with voidlords - I got one voidlord and and cube that had eaten a doomguard. Even so the game was really tight...and long, with lots of back and forth and planning ahead (saving duskbreakers for post guldan, etc). The guy actually sent my a friend request after the game and said something similar too "gg, can't beleive we just had a fun game with you using that deck"...and that prompted me to make this post.
Yes hearthstone has had a rpoblem over the years, finding ways to make big minions viable - what's the point of cool 7 mana plus cards if you are dead straight after you play them, immediate board impact required and all that - but this cheating them out stuff is really toxic for the game. In the past we had cards like voidcaller which were cool - silenceable, also gave both players interesting decsions to make on the following turns, do I kill and gamble, how many cards does he have? how likely is the big demon....do I tap for the big demon, etc. Barnes and Spiteful Summoner do nothing of the sort, and add nothing to the game, only detract and simplify, and Spiteful Summonner is going no where for a while now :(
Excellent write-up! Similar wibe I have watching Spell Hunter matches with Barnes-Y'Shaarj combo. Like how much of a good feeling can you get when you play Barnes on four? I bet it's sort of fun for a couple of times but in the long run a player like me can't get the sensation of gratitude for a well played game after that kind of bull. The same problem I have with Keleseth. Draw it and you have a nice advantage. Don't draw it and it pisses you off. In any case those polarized cards don't make me feel good about the game.
In a game that has a very low health pool, and very overpowered cards, the idea of making multiple ways to pull those OP cards out early was a terrible design idea.
A 12/12 that can't be removed by spells on turn 10 ... not so bad. That minion on board on Turn 5 or 6. Its probably game over. Lich King on Turn 3. Same thing. Obsidian Statue on Turn 3, Turn 5, Turn 6, Turn 7, and Turn 9 ... you get the picture.
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I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
playing spiteful atm becouse its cheap(compared to over decks) and i can agree, its not really fun, ist just highrolling(well every drop of spiteful) is just beyond broken, on 6 mana you get all most a 10/10, hard to deal with, im currently 45/19 and that shows how brokeback this deck can be,(from rank 25 to rank 10 atm)
Haven't really seen spiteful in wild but barnes is a problem since hes gonna be around forever there which is always annoying yet satysfying when they always pull barnes from their deck
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Kobolds are almost as bad as goblins, they gotta die (⌐■_■)–︻╦╤─
In a game that has a very low health pool, and very overpowered cards, the idea of making multiple ways to pull those OP cards out early was a terrible design idea.
A 12/12 that can't be removed by spells on turn 10 ... not so bad. That minion on board on Turn 5 or 6. Its probably game over. Lich King on Turn 3. Same thing. Obsidian Statue on Turn 3, Turn 5, Turn 6, Turn 7, and Turn 9 ... you get the picture.
I know right, remeber when people only had Dr. 7 to worry about? because it dropped two 1/1s that could do an RNG amount of Damage? Ahhh those were the days, now its turn 10/10s that will be rezed every turn.
In a game that has a very low health pool, and very overpowered cards, the idea of making multiple ways to pull those OP cards out early was a terrible design idea.
A 12/12 that can't be removed by spells on turn 10 ... not so bad. That minion on board on Turn 5 or 6. Its probably game over. Lich King on Turn 3. Same thing. Obsidian Statue on Turn 3, Turn 5, Turn 6, Turn 7, and Turn 9 ... you get the picture.
I know right, remeber when people only had Dr. 7 to worry about? because it dropped two 1/1s that could do an RNG amount of Damage? Ahhh those were the days, now its turn 10/10s that will be rezed every turn.
Maybe they need to un-nerf BGH? ..He was the answer to the good ol' Doctor. You'd be able to kill the free fat minion from the Spiteful most of the time for 3 mana, and then have a 4/2 to threaten the 4/4.
I used to hate Barnes because of decks like Big Priest, where it's just insanely unfair, but I've been recently playing a hybrid version of Spell Hunter and Big Hunter (basically Barnes + KAthrena, Krush, Highmanes and Violet Wurm and filling the rest with spells) just because I got tired of low-rolling Spellbreakers and Secret Keepers with Barnes and sadly that deck won't survive the rotation.
Basically what I'm saying is: the "fun-factor" is very dependant on the deck it'S being played in. If the deck is something like the one I mentioned the effect is powerful, but not impossible to beat, especially considering that one needs to make sacrifices when building the deck to maximize the potential high-roll on turn 4, while still having the card be useful even when not played on curve (with teh possibility of a king Krush low-roll still possible)
On the other hand, putting it into something like Big Priest or Y'shaarj-Spell Hunter where the purpose is basically just: "if i get this on turn 4 and it works I win the game most of the time, but if that doesn't work out the card is practically dead" which is just frustrating to lose to....on either side, mind you.
I personally feel like high-roll, mana-cheat cards like this (other exmamples being posessed Lackey) aren't broken or 2unfun" by themselves but rather dependant on how many support cards tehy have...and I don't mean direct support cards only.
For example: Spiteful Summoner Priest is very good because Priest has 2 different high-cost spells that are still good enough on their own to be put in a deck. That's a drect synergy. However, Priest now also has access to plenty of powerful stand-alone minion to fill the curve until turn 6, which is an even bigger reason as to why the deck succeeds. Hell, I'm not even sure the deck will be that powerful after the rotation since a lot of the dragon synergy will leave Standard. NO more Drakonid and Netherspite means less powerful turn 5s and also less dragons in general, which makes dragon synergy worse and as a result Duskbreaker is weaker too.
You can see this effect even right now. After the Patches, Bonemare and Creeper nerf, Tempo Rogue dropped in popularity drastically, despite still having access to the supposedly "broken" Keleseth shenanigans. It just turns out a lot of the deck's success depended on Patches having charge and Bonemare's turn 7 tempo swing.
Another interesting case is Possessed Lackey, a card that by itself is very weak, but becomes exceptionally powerful thanks to Dark Pact which circumvents the opponent's ability to silence it to gain a huge tempo advantage. At the same time, Dark Pact would be extremely weak in most other circumstances. Compare this to Skull of the Man'ari which has a similar effect but is much more balanced, since a) it's effect can't be cheated through a combo and b) it can actually be removed before it goes off.
In conclusion I have to say...these high-roll cards aren't bad by themselves, but the devs are being very careless about the cards that they interact with, both old and new. If Barnes was a Hunter-only card we wouldn't nearly be having as much trouble with him, same goes for the nerfed Corridor Creeper.
At the end it just seems to me that most of these cards are a problem due to being neutral. It's extremely difficult to keep track of all the possible synergies in the game and when you print cards like these as neutrals something is bound to slip through and that's how decks like Big Priest and Shadowstep+Keleseth happen. Hell, one might argue that Spiteful Summoner is a lot better designed since you can directly influence it'S powerlevel by releasing strong big spells or releasing more essential small spells for classes that benefit from it too much (just like you can indirectly nerf Keleseth by just printing really strong 2-drops)
I'm positive that Spiteful Summoner will end up much more balanced after the rotation UNLESS they completely ignore its potential and print more super-powered 8-10 cost mana spells for classes with an abundance of curve-minions. It's definitely not even close to game-breaking as Barnes can be.
I'm positive that Spiteful Summoner will end up much more balanced after the rotation UNLESS they completely ignore its potential and print more super-powered 8-10 cost mana spells for classes with an abundance of curve-minions. It's definitely not even close to game-breaking as Barnes can be.
I think Spiteful priest will survive the rotation. The actual premise of the deck isn't changing. If anything, it is getting better with most of the "bad" outcomes getting removed. Duskbreaker will still be around to offer early board clears. I would expect the early game to go more defensive, with lower cost taunts to carry you through until Turn 6.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
Barnes is soon to rotate. But we have a similar effect forced it way right to the top of the meta lately with Spiteful Summoner. I have been playing Spiteful Priest for standard rank 5 this season, got there without too much effort, the deck is quite powerful. However, I can honestly say I disliked the experience. The deck lacks answers, with the exception of Duskbreaker, which you can indeed play four of sometimes (three is really quite common) to really crush the will to live of any zoo deck or similar.
With the lack of answers you are looking to curve out and get ahead, or atleast remain in touch, as you aren't going to be to flip the board, heading into turn six. You then play Spiteful and win from there...or not, if they actually have an answer. Zero decision making, zero anything. Winning is no fun with this kind of deck. Its the kind of deck the phrase "RNG clown-fiesta" was made for...mulligan is everything, draw is everything, but you run no draw, so not draw, but actaully topdecking, from turn 2.
I had one fun game on my climb to rank 5...one! It was against a cubelock and I drew my mindcontrols early. I went second so saved the coin in order to mindcontrol turns 9 and 10 - hoping to line up with voidlords - I got one voidlord and and cube that had eaten a doomguard. Even so the game was really tight...and long, with lots of back and forth and planning ahead (saving duskbreakers for post guldan, etc). The guy actually sent my a friend request after the game and said something similar too "gg, can't beleive we just had a fun game with you using that deck"...and that prompted me to make this post.
Yes hearthstone has had a rpoblem over the years, finding ways to make big minions viable - what's the point of cool 7 mana plus cards if you are dead straight after you play them, immediate board impact required and all that - but this cheating them out stuff is really toxic for the game. In the past we had cards like voidcaller which were cool - silenceable, also gave both players interesting decsions to make on the following turns, do I kill and gamble, how many cards does he have? how likely is the big demon....do I tap for the big demon, etc. Barnes and Spiteful Summoner do nothing of the sort, and add nothing to the game, only detract and simplify, and Spiteful Summonner is going no where for a while now :(
Excellent write-up! Similar wibe I have watching Spell Hunter matches with Barnes-Y'Shaarj combo. Like how much of a good feeling can you get when you play Barnes on four? I bet it's sort of fun for a couple of times but in the long run a player like me can't get the sensation of gratitude for a well played game after that kind of bull. The same problem I have with Keleseth. Draw it and you have a nice advantage. Don't draw it and it pisses you off. In any case those polarized cards don't make me feel good about the game.
In a game that has a very low health pool, and very overpowered cards, the idea of making multiple ways to pull those OP cards out early was a terrible design idea.
A 12/12 that can't be removed by spells on turn 10 ... not so bad. That minion on board on Turn 5 or 6. Its probably game over. Lich King on Turn 3. Same thing. Obsidian Statue on Turn 3, Turn 5, Turn 6, Turn 7, and Turn 9 ... you get the picture.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
playing spiteful atm becouse its cheap(compared to over decks) and i can agree, its not really fun, ist just highrolling(well every drop of spiteful) is just beyond broken, on 6 mana you get all most a 10/10, hard to deal with, im currently 45/19 and that shows how brokeback this deck can be,(from rank 25 to rank 10 atm)
Haven't really seen spiteful in wild but barnes is a problem since hes gonna be around forever there which is always annoying yet satysfying when they always pull barnes from their deck
Kobolds are almost as bad as goblins, they gotta die (⌐■_■)–︻╦╤─
I used to hate Barnes because of decks like Big Priest, where it's just insanely unfair, but I've been recently playing a hybrid version of Spell Hunter and Big Hunter (basically Barnes + KAthrena, Krush, Highmanes and Violet Wurm and filling the rest with spells) just because I got tired of low-rolling Spellbreakers and Secret Keepers with Barnes and sadly that deck won't survive the rotation.
Basically what I'm saying is: the "fun-factor" is very dependant on the deck it'S being played in. If the deck is something like the one I mentioned the effect is powerful, but not impossible to beat, especially considering that one needs to make sacrifices when building the deck to maximize the potential high-roll on turn 4, while still having the card be useful even when not played on curve (with teh possibility of a king Krush low-roll still possible)
On the other hand, putting it into something like Big Priest or Y'shaarj-Spell Hunter where the purpose is basically just: "if i get this on turn 4 and it works I win the game most of the time, but if that doesn't work out the card is practically dead" which is just frustrating to lose to....on either side, mind you.
I personally feel like high-roll, mana-cheat cards like this (other exmamples being posessed Lackey) aren't broken or 2unfun" by themselves but rather dependant on how many support cards tehy have...and I don't mean direct support cards only.
For example: Spiteful Summoner Priest is very good because Priest has 2 different high-cost spells that are still good enough on their own to be put in a deck. That's a drect synergy. However, Priest now also has access to plenty of powerful stand-alone minion to fill the curve until turn 6, which is an even bigger reason as to why the deck succeeds. Hell, I'm not even sure the deck will be that powerful after the rotation since a lot of the dragon synergy will leave Standard. NO more Drakonid and Netherspite means less powerful turn 5s and also less dragons in general, which makes dragon synergy worse and as a result Duskbreaker is weaker too.
You can see this effect even right now. After the Patches, Bonemare and Creeper nerf, Tempo Rogue dropped in popularity drastically, despite still having access to the supposedly "broken" Keleseth shenanigans. It just turns out a lot of the deck's success depended on Patches having charge and Bonemare's turn 7 tempo swing.
Another interesting case is Possessed Lackey, a card that by itself is very weak, but becomes exceptionally powerful thanks to Dark Pact which circumvents the opponent's ability to silence it to gain a huge tempo advantage. At the same time, Dark Pact would be extremely weak in most other circumstances. Compare this to Skull of the Man'ari which has a similar effect but is much more balanced, since a) it's effect can't be cheated through a combo and b) it can actually be removed before it goes off.
In conclusion I have to say...these high-roll cards aren't bad by themselves, but the devs are being very careless about the cards that they interact with, both old and new. If Barnes was a Hunter-only card we wouldn't nearly be having as much trouble with him, same goes for the nerfed Corridor Creeper.
At the end it just seems to me that most of these cards are a problem due to being neutral. It's extremely difficult to keep track of all the possible synergies in the game and when you print cards like these as neutrals something is bound to slip through and that's how decks like Big Priest and Shadowstep+Keleseth happen. Hell, one might argue that Spiteful Summoner is a lot better designed since you can directly influence it'S powerlevel by releasing strong big spells or releasing more essential small spells for classes that benefit from it too much (just like you can indirectly nerf Keleseth by just printing really strong 2-drops)
I'm positive that Spiteful Summoner will end up much more balanced after the rotation UNLESS they completely ignore its potential and print more super-powered 8-10 cost mana spells for classes with an abundance of curve-minions. It's definitely not even close to game-breaking as Barnes can be.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
But think of all the Karazhan and Gadgetzan cards that are rotating, there may still be Spiteful Priest ,but I doubt it will be Dragon-based by then.
This space is intentionally blank.