Hearthpwn

Quote from AProudMurloc >>

Its seen as a limiting design space card because of a mage being able to win with sometimes no board because of it, and the fact that it can consistently be discovered. In standard there is one neutral secret counter rotating out, and 2 eaters can't do Much about 3 or 4 iceblocks played per game. It is fine on paper but with Exodia mage and mage being able to generate so many spells with primordial and the spellstone , it's becoming a problem. Mage has arcane artificer to compensate defensively so they should be fine. It just promotes an unhealthy playstyle blizz doesnt want

Quote from AProudMurloc >>

Its seen as a limiting design space card because of a mage being able to win with sometimes no board because of it, and the fact that it can consistently be discovered. In standard there is one neutral secret counter rotating out, and 2 eaters can't do Much about 3 or 4 iceblocks played per game. It is fine on paper but with Exodia mage and mage being able to generate so many spells with primordial and the spellstone , it's becoming a problem. Mage has arcane artificer to compensate defensively so they should be fine. It just promotes an unhealthy playstyle blizz doesnt want

Quote from Haussenfuss >>

 

Hmmm.

Last year, the devs explained their decision to relegate Ice Lance to the Hall of Fame -

"Freeze Mage is a fun deck that has been around for over three years now, and we’d like to see more variety with Mage decks after each major release. This move allows Freeze Mage to continue existing in Wild, while creating more variety in Standard."

The evergreen set provides Control Mage with a core of about twenty cards. The game plan for the archetype hasn't changed since the open beta, regardless of whether the control deck is Freeze Mage, Reno Mage, Quest Mage, or any other variety of Control Mage - use the same twenty evergreen cards to stall the game long enough to draw your win condition. None of the OP's points address the most salient issue - Blizz doesn't want Standard to have the same decks, playing the same twenty evergreen cards, year after year. They relegated Ice Lance last year, and they'll keep chipping away at those twenty evergreen cards until they are happy that Mage won't be pigeon-holed into playing the same control deck year after year. Ice Block is arguably the most powerful stall card in the format - in any event, it's difficult to imagine any other stall card being released that could squeeze Ice Block out of Control Mage.

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from AProudMurloc >>

Its seen as a limiting design space card because of a mage being able to win with sometimes no board because of it, and the fact that it can consistently be discovered. In standard there is one neutral secret counter rotating out, and 2 eaters can't do Much about 3 or 4 iceblocks played per game. It is fine on paper but with Exodia mage and mage being able to generate so many spells with primordial and the spellstone , it's becoming a problem. Mage has arcane artificer to compensate defensively so they should be fine. It just promotes an unhealthy playstyle blizz doesnt want

 

 How is that "limiting design space"? It makes no sense at all, in fact, the card OPENS design space for mage decks winning with no board to be possible.

And what is that "problem" you are all talking about? Exodia mage is a tier 4 deck at best... Prove me wrong in stating it is all about some players hating to lose to combo decks, and that their control decks can be punished for not preasuring enough.

Quote from Unknown27 >>

You speak about cancer,when the most cancer thing in Hearthstone is the ability to be killed in one turn without anything you can do.Raza wasnt even that bad since he could be counter by mass armor stacking decks.

Exodia on the other hand,destroys any control deck that has no tech against only this deck.And many times not only control but most of midrange aswell,except aggro.

I prefer to be matched against aggro,cause i like to play control,than to be matched against a BS deck that is guaranteed to kill you no matter what.If you tech against aggro and against OTK decks,then your deck becomes garbage.

I once saw Dog playing the deck,he discovered 5 extra ice blocks on top of his original two,and the guy against him would have basicly won the game 6 times already if not for that totally busted card.

And then you talk about control is favored cause of fatigue???What are you rank 15?Who cares about the old archetypes of mage,people got mad after exodia became a thing,which made ice block broken.If exodia mage had a higher win rate and aggro decks wasnt there to keep the deck in check,then there wouldnt be any control deck because exodia counters every single one.

Except if you turn your deck into garbage teching rats and secret eaters,and even then,you are not guaranteed to hit the required cards to win.

Quote from Horkinger >>

 

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from AProudMurloc >>

Its seen as a limiting design space card because of a mage being able to win with sometimes no board because of it, and the fact that it can consistently be discovered. In standard there is one neutral secret counter rotating out, and 2 eaters can't do Much about 3 or 4 iceblocks played per game. It is fine on paper but with Exodia mage and mage being able to generate so many spells with primordial and the spellstone , it's becoming a problem. Mage has arcane artificer to compensate defensively so they should be fine. It just promotes an unhealthy playstyle blizz doesnt want

 

 How is that "limiting design space"? It makes no sense at all, in fact, the card OPENS design space for mage decks winning with no board to be possible.

And what is that "problem" you are all talking about? Exodia mage is a tier 4 deck at best... Prove me wrong in stating it is all about some players hating to lose to combo decks, and that their control decks can be punished for not preasuring enough.

 It seems you misunderstand his use of the term design space. You are talking about deck building. He is referring to Blizzards possibility to release new cards (which Haussenfuss also mentioned). As long as ice block is in the game, Mage cannot get effective defensive tools to avoid imbalance because ice block is so powerful. Therefor, Ice block  does in fact limit design space.  

Quote from Horkinger >>

 

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from AProudMurloc >>

Its seen as a limiting design space card because of a mage being able to win with sometimes no board because of it, and the fact that it can consistently be discovered. In standard there is one neutral secret counter rotating out, and 2 eaters can't do Much about 3 or 4 iceblocks played per game. It is fine on paper but with Exodia mage and mage being able to generate so many spells with primordial and the spellstone , it's becoming a problem. Mage has arcane artificer to compensate defensively so they should be fine. It just promotes an unhealthy playstyle blizz doesnt want

 

 How is that "limiting design space"? It makes no sense at all, in fact, the card OPENS design space for mage decks winning with no board to be possible.

And what is that "problem" you are all talking about? Exodia mage is a tier 4 deck at best... Prove me wrong in stating it is all about some players hating to lose to combo decks, and that their control decks can be punished for not preasuring enough.

 It seems you misunderstand his use of the term design space. You are talking about deck building. He is referring to Blizzards possibility to release new cards (which Haussenfuss also mentioned). As long as ice block is in the game, Mage cannot get effective defensive tools to avoid imbalance because ice block is so powerful. Therefor, Ice block  does in fact limit design space.  

Quote from Yonas11 >>

You speak of cancer, yet mention mech but not exodia or freeze?! 

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from Horkinger >>

 

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from AProudMurloc >>

Its seen as a limiting design space card because of a mage being able to win with sometimes no board because of it, and the fact that it can consistently be discovered. In standard there is one neutral secret counter rotating out, and 2 eaters can't do Much about 3 or 4 iceblocks played per game. It is fine on paper but with Exodia mage and mage being able to generate so many spells with primordial and the spellstone , it's becoming a problem. Mage has arcane artificer to compensate defensively so they should be fine. It just promotes an unhealthy playstyle blizz doesnt want

 

 How is that "limiting design space"? It makes no sense at all, in fact, the card OPENS design space for mage decks winning with no board to be possible.

And what is that "problem" you are all talking about? Exodia mage is a tier 4 deck at best... Prove me wrong in stating it is all about some players hating to lose to combo decks, and that their control decks can be punished for not preasuring enough.

 It seems you misunderstand his use of the term design space. You are talking about deck building. He is referring to Blizzards possibility to release new cards (which Haussenfuss also mentioned). As long as ice block is in the game, Mage cannot get effective defensive tools to avoid imbalance because ice block is so powerful. Therefor, Ice block  does in fact limit design space.  

 

 Mage DK is a pretty good late-game defence oriented card, but ice block certainly did not break her. One of the things I like about the card is how it works ALONG with other defensive tools, like the Healbot, DK and Reno. With busted cards like summoner and Gul'dan in the game, Mage needs some crazy new defensive tools to keep up, and I can't see that happening.

If you want to kill Mage as a combo and control class, then sure, rotate away!

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Quote from SlydE >>

3: The card IS interactive
Ice Block is a often talked about as a non-interactive card, but I think this is false. The mage does make important sacrifices to get the card in play, making it up to the opponent to take advantage: How early can you pop it? How can you push your board advantage without overextending? Is there a way to make them take damage on their own turn? How to put the mage at as low health as possible before poping?

 I don't see much point in touching the other points as they are mostly all correct. What I want to add and change here is that Ice Block is interactive because it is a card that can both be Countered (Nullified) and Played Around (Impact Minimized).

Ice Block can be nullified by all the Secret Tech Cards in the game, which completely remove it's effect much more effectively than other Nullifying effects (If you look at minion removal for example, minion removal doesn't remove any value generated by that minion, like Ysera cards that went to hand before you removed it, with Ice Block, it is entirely removed, everything in it's effect is completely nullified).

It is easily Played Around just by manipulating the Health of the Mage. The impact Ice Block is only as powerful as you allow it to be. This card solely allows an extra turn (Unless you kill the Mage with Four Horsemen), that means the Mage has a turn to deal with everything you set up on the board state. What good is being at 1 HP and having an Extra turn if you cannot deal with the opponent of kill him in that turn?

People often cry because the effect is irreversible. Once the Mage is Immune, you cannot kill it (which is false, since effects like the Four Horsemen still kill Immune Heroes). This is just a completely nonsensical discussion. Any Secret that players decide to play around without nullifying, ALWAYS has its effect active. You never prevent a Mirror Entity from copying a minion, a Counterspell from stopping your spell, the Mage from going Immune. All you get to choose when playing around the Secrets is in which terms the Secret activates.

Do you give a Wisp for the Mirror Entity? Do you Coin for the Mirror Entity? Do you leave the Mage at 1 HP when they go Immune, this is all counterplay and it is how you play around Secrets. You MINIMIZE the impact of the Secrets, you never nullify the effect, the effects still happen. UNLESS, you use Tech Cards to NULLIFY them.

I don't want Ice Block to be Hall of Famed but to be honest, I'm glad it will be. Not because the card deserves to be sent there, but because the playerbase, specially on the low levels of knowledge, tends to constantly complain about this card, and I much prefer to see it go to Wild where we can then enjoy Mage as it is meant to be played (Combo and Control Spell heavy decks), rather than have it in Standard for too long and Blizzard change the card for no reason and make all the fun Mage decks that ever existed impossible to play in the future. THAT would be the most unfortunate path that it could take, the Mage lose access to all the fun Combo and Control decks it can play in Wild. (At that point I would just leave the game, that is more than 50% of the fun of this game)

Quote from SlydE >>

So, there has been a lot of speculation about Ice Block moving to the hall of fame, and Blizzard has insinuated that they are looking at the possibility. The community is getting more and more sure this will actually happen, and many are praising the move. I think this is an AWFUL move, however, for a number of reasons:

1: The power level of Ice Block:
Ice Block is a unique card that has followed mage's up- and down swings in the meta. It gives you time, but no value, no tempo, no removal and no board presence, hence it's "terrible" rating in arena. The 2 most cancerous mage decks since the game release, Flamewaker tempo mage and mech mage did not run Ice Block, and the card would be an awful choice in those decks. As I write this, Ice Block is sitting right around a 50% winrate at higher levels, and secret mage is an easily countered tier 2 deck.

2: Class identity
Mage as a class does not have access to healing, and use limited armor gain and freeze as defensive tools. Ice Block is the only really good way mage can protect themselves, and it fits perfectly with the class identity IMO. If you remove this card, you have to either indtroduce good armor or heal cards, or even more frustrating global freezes.

3: The card IS interactive
Ice Block is a often talked about as a non-interactive card, but I think this is false. The mage does make important sacrifices to get the card in play, making it up to the opponent to take advantage: How early can you pop it? How can you push your board advantage without overextending? Is there a way to make them take damage on their own turn? How to put the mage at as low health as possible before poping?

4: Ice Block enables aggro, combo and control archetypes
Without its most powerful defensive tool, mage as a class will be limited to a minion based tempo playstyle, something it will be hard pressed by other classes to do successfully. You are essentially removing imporant potential for a class, and I can not understand how this is desireable. Yes, the OTK and 2-turn kills mage can pull off can be frustrating, but playing the decks to legend level has never been a walk in the park, and if you play the decks, you know they often fails to collect the pieces in time, and they have some terrible matchups!

5: Introducing tech cards is a much better option
We have Kezan Mystic and Eater of Secrets, but IMO, introducing more and better tech cards against secrets is a much better option than moving Ice Block to Hall of Fame. There are other more creative ways to play against Ice Block like Curse of Rafaam too, and there is much to be explored!

 1. Yet Block is basically a cheat. Not only does it buy you a full extra turn for 3 mana, but it also nullify any excess damage, TWICE: say you are at 5hp. I have 7atk, i pop the block, so the full 7atk is null, and then you still have 5hp, and a full turn to recover! 

Every viable deck is cheating at this point. Ice Block is far from the worst offender, and has considerable drawbacks, as mentioned in the OP.

2. Give mages more armor is still fine with class identity. It is magical armor, yet armor it is. Give invisibility for next turn, etc. 

I strongly disagree, for the record, I do not like that Druid is playing the armor-game better than Warrior now either. Why make Mage compete at this, when it fits so much better for other classes?

3. A battle of who gathers lethal first is not enough to define 'interactive'. Interactive is when board is dealt with. Potentially, it lets you play solitaire in order to gather combo as fast as possible. And it does that extremely efficiently. This is why ice block is hated independently of its statistical impact in the meta.

This is incorrect. You also have to survive and pace your AOE and removal to survive while gathering your pieces.  The opponent needs to play against said removal, stall and AOE. The decks are weak ATM anyway, so why even bother complaining about them?

4. You can play Control with different kind of support, and that a defensive tool enables Aggro is just telling of how broken the card is. With more Control tools, you'd be able to refine Combo as well, just in a slightly different way.

Big spell mage is a Control deck which do not run Ice Block, as that archetype was forced by the latest expansion, but Ice Block is opening up avenues for mage which would be closed otherwise. Ofc you can also make Mage a weaker version of Druid, Paladin or Shaman introducing other defensive tools, but I do not want to see that happen! There are plenty of other class cards in the game that are used in more different decks than Ice Block, Wrath and Sunkeeper Tarim say hi.

5. Tech is not an argument. Historically techs are bad except for very few cases and very few decks. They terribly limit deckbuilding and are generally unfun

This is bullshit. Golakka Crawler, Big Game Hunter, Skulking Geist and several other tech cards have played important parts in balancing the metagame. The tech cards against secrets so far have been underastatted, but that does not mean future ones have to be...

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from AProudMurloc >>

Its seen as a limiting design space card because of a mage being able to win with sometimes no board because of it, and the fact that it can consistently be discovered. In standard there is one neutral secret counter rotating out, and 2 eaters can't do Much about 3 or 4 iceblocks played per game. It is fine on paper but with Exodia mage and mage being able to generate so many spells with primordial and the spellstone , it's becoming a problem. Mage has arcane artificer to compensate defensively so they should be fine. It just promotes an unhealthy playstyle blizz doesnt want

 

 How is that "limiting design space"? It makes no sense at all, in fact, the card OPENS design space for mage decks winning with no board to be possible.

And what is that "problem" you are all talking about? Exodia mage is a tier 4 deck at best... Prove me wrong in stating it is all about some players hating to lose to combo decks, and that their control decks can be punished for not preasuring enough.

I too do not think Ice Block should be hall of famed. The card is, as OP says, not really that strong other than it buys the mage some time. What I hate about mage is that they can OTK you in a sense with the quest. I think the quest is the problem. 

OKay maybe limiting design space was an awkward term to use, but my main point is that it is still a discoverable spell for mages, who have a lot of spell generation, so thats what i mean by that. Unlike other secrets, ice block getting used multiple times against you is flat out unfair if you ask me. WHen i said it was a problem i did not mean that the exodia deck was, just their method of winning .You dont have to think it is a problem but it will most likely eventually become a problem with mage getting more generation spells and being able to likely get way too many ice blocks. One day, they will most likely make a card that discovers a secret and you'll see what i mean when I say that ice block could be likely become a problem. It may not be a problem as of now, but with future card designs, it should be considered

So a very lucky exodia mage player discovered 3 Ice Blocks, and it made you hate the card? Don't  worry, it has never happened to me, and almost 100% won't happen to you again either.

I don't understand how that is unfair while things like summoning 4 Voidlords or Obsidian Statues by turn 8 is far more common.

I disagree, I think Ice block is a card too powerful, Ice block with freeze affects pretty much allows mage to stall forever, and I don't like that, I think Ice block deserves a respective spot on the Hall of Fame, and after they killed iconic cards like Patches and Raza, I don't think they will shy away from vanishing iconic cards

I'm not sure the argument that Blizzard can't release more defensive tools for mage until they rotate ice block is true

After all they already released arcane artificer and it combined with ice block has not broken the game.  Far from it, control mage is barely played.

And I question if we can really trust Blizzard to give us a viable replacement if they HoF ice block.  Knowing them they'd give us something much weaker in comparison or nothing at all.

After thinking about it, I think my main point before was that I hated Exodia Mage. I usually can work around ice block when I'm not facing that stupid deck. So maybe they should just nerf the quest? I don't think anyone has ever had a fun game against it. Even when you crush them, it's still boring to just face stalling every turn.

I think people above made a good point that there are a lot worse cards in the game right now. (Voidlord, Jades, etc.)

This reads more as a fanboy homage to the card than it does an actual analysis.

Yes, even I don't think it should go to HoF. I love that card, it's so good. Although it doesn't affect anything in the game, and many times it even achieves nothing, but the amount of thinking u need to play it, is pretty good. And since I personally hate an aggro meta, I think Ice Block is good within itself, to provide some control games to Mages.