Hearthpwn

Glad Mage have the treatment it deserves. Now you can understand why warrior player moan about losing winaxe.

Quote from Lyra_Silvertongue >>

 

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

Quote from Cubesz >>

If they are moving ice block to wild so they can push a deck like tempo/secret mage, then Brode can shove his game right up where the sun don't shine. 

 It's not about "pushing" anything. They are moving it because a lot of people are tired of dealing with it, just like they were tired of dealing with the Druid combo.

I don't really find "tired of dealing [with it]" as a strong reason to HoF something because that is more based off of subjective bias and may even target cards/decks that aren't popular and/or strong, but that some players find annoying. Take Coldlight Oracle for example (which is also going to the HoF), the card is key to Mill Rogue, but even in standard that deck is far from Tier 1. Would it make sense to get rid of Oracle simply because "people" were tired of the archtype due to being matched up against it every 50 games on ladder (obviously spit-balling that number there)?

Should Fireball, Sap, Brawl, Nourish, Vanish, Hellfire, Warleader, SWD, etc all just be sent to HoF right now too then? After all, all of these cards can be tiring to deal with at one point or another. If we are going to continue the concept of a HoF we might as well stop dragging our feet and just get right down to the idea that it is slowly trying to be passed off to players that T5 actually doesn't like the idea of an evergreen set anymore. Let's stop bullying one or two classes every HS year and just fully transition into removing everything that is going to be labelled in any way as "limiting design space".

Welp.  Going off of TC's original post, Iceblock was huge for Mage's class identity.  Back when I used to play WoW, it was our "OH$%*#" button whenever things got hairy.  Losing it in standard will definitely hurt, but here's hoping they print another secret with similar features in the coming expansion(s). 

Well they went and did it.  Ouch.

Quote from Sounder >>

With Ice Block out, Blizz can experiment with other "game extension" tricks for Mage that don't just nullify your opponent's turn no matter what they have on board or in hand.  For example, they could have something that puts the already Mage-specific Animated Armor effect on the hero.  That could probably protect you from lethal at 12 health, but probably not at 3.  

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

Quote from Cubesz >>

If they are moving ice block to wild so they can push a deck like tempo/secret mage, then Brode can shove his game right up where the sun don't shine. 

 It's not about "pushing" anything. They are moving it because a lot of people are tired of dealing with it, just like they were tired of dealing with the Druid combo.

There you go its hall of fames... Thank god one of the worst designed cards is moving to wild

And.. it got Hof'ed as expected

Quote from Nimehte >>

 

Quote from SClone >>

The argument "Mage has no heal" does not consider the folowing cards:
Ice Barrier
Arcane Artificer
Possible outcome of Kabal Chemist
Possible outcome of Kabal Courier
Possible outcome of Kazakus. 
And then there's tonnes of removal, freeze effects and even taunts like Mirror Image. 
And of course the neutral cards.

Now, here's the list for Rogue: 
Leeching Poison
Possible outcome of Lotus Agents. 

And here for Hunter:
[404 NO CARDS FOUND]

So.... Hall of Fame please!

 

 Dude except Ice Barrier and Arcane Artificer all other card that you mentioned also rotates.

Also ice barrier is not good at late game 8 armor for 3 mana that doesn't help you against damage spells once I didn't attack to the face for 2 turns to not trigger ice barrier than I draw spell and finish the mage

Also arcane artificer is a dead meat on the board if you play it at early game it will give you like 4 or 5 armor at most and it will die. If you play it at late game sure it will give you much more armor but it is not enough. since you can gain only 8 armor for each artificer.

Ice barrier is fine, the point of secrets is that you can play around them (like in your example). There is no playing around Ice Block, which is why it should have been nerfed/Hall of Famed a long time ago.

And Arcane Artificer is also fine, considering warrior gets less Armor for that amount of mana and no body at all. 

Glad Mage lost it's "get out of jail for free" card, it was the most unfun thing in the game (worse than jades even).

Quote from Nimehte >>

 

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

Quote from Cubesz >>

If they are moving ice block to wild so they can push a deck like tempo/secret mage, then Brode can shove his game right up where the sun don't shine. 

 It's not about "pushing" anything. They are moving it because a lot of people are tired of dealing with it, just like they were tired of dealing with the Druid combo.

 

 They don't push anything and they didn't get sick of it. Iceblock was able to make some archetypes possible. Freeze mage, otk mage, control mage etc. And they decided to kill those archetypes which heavily depended on spell.

Next Expansion secret mage will already lose too much card compared to those cards iceblock is nothing.

So what archetype left for mage ?

Only Bigspell mage, Minion oriented spiteful bandwagon or another ******** go face deck

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

Quote from Nimehte >>

 

Quote from FortyDust >>

 

Quote from Cubesz >>

If they are moving ice block to wild so they can push a deck like tempo/secret mage, then Brode can shove his game right up where the sun don't shine. 

 It's not about "pushing" anything. They are moving it because a lot of people are tired of dealing with it, just like they were tired of dealing with the Druid combo.

 

 They don't push anything and they didn't get sick of it. Iceblock was able to make some archetypes possible. Freeze mage, otk mage, control mage etc. And they decided to kill those archetypes which heavily depended on spell.

Next Expansion secret mage will already lose too much card compared to those cards iceblock is nothing.

So what archetype left for mage ?

Only Bigspell mage, Minion oriented spiteful bandwagon or another ******** go face deck

 As I recall, people said Dragon Priest would be dead when BRM and TGT rotated out. Yet here we are.

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Quote from Yandai >>

What are your goals when playing mage secrets?

If you play a Counterplay you want to deny a certain spell, but the pure existence of the card leeds to your opponents often playing into a possible counterspell. As the opponent you can try to play around it and actually succeed by baiting the effect.

If you play a Mirror Entity you are hoping to get a big dude, but the possitive byeffect is that your opponents will probably try to bait the secret.

If you play an Ice Block you want to get an extra turn. Your opponent knows that they have to attack you in a certain order to activate it at the lowest amount of health possible, BUT: you have an extra turn. 

Sure it can be important if you trigger iceblock at 1 Health or any higher amount, but in almost every case it wont matter at all. 

That is the reason why all those dudes say that Ice Block is problematic and uninteractive and extremely dull to play against. And yes there are some crazy idiotic ways to possibly counter its Effect. But all of those have one iportant thing in common: they are unplayable in a meta that isnt 90% Ice Block Mage.

And nope Kezan Mystic, Eater of Secrets and Flare arent Counterplays against Ice Block, they are Secret Counterplays in general.

 You have an extra turn just like you counter a spell or copy a minion. Just because the opponent played a minion you don't want into Mirror, that doesn't remove the fact that you get an exact fully unaltered copy of their minion. Same for Counterspell, you still counter a spell, always, not matter what. The Mage always goes immune, no matter if it is at 1 HP preventing 1 damage or at 30 HP preventing 30 damage.

Actually in almost EVERY SINGLE case, it will matter what HP you pop Ice Block at, that is one of the most clueless statements I've ever seen. Have you played more than 10 games with a deck relying on Ice Block? I'm honestly questioning this, because it is only possible for you to state that if you have little to no experience playing decks with the card. People really underestimate the importance of playing around Ice Block. Making the wrong attack order an popping the Block at high HP usually leads to the Mage having even more turns than they should, because if you don't have different damage to kill them from that total, any other kind of tools to stop your attacks or damage sources can easily grant them extra time without even needing to play more Ice Blocks. And you wouldn't believe how frequently that happens.

Specially against a Freeze Mage or others with cards like Alexstrazsa, where the Mage's life total can be changed more easily, and suddenly if they have a 3 or 4 extra turns because you didn't pop them correctly can help them draw cards like Alexstrazsa. Seriously, do NOT underestimate how impactful correctly playing around this card is. This is where the vast majority of players just look at a game they lost and go "oh there was nothing I could have done better", without even taking the time to realize just how poorly they played and how much that influenced the outcome of the game.

And "And nope Kezan Mystic, Eater of Secrets and Flare arent Counterplays against Ice Block, they are Secret Counterplays in general." that a really strange sentence. Kezan Mystic, Eater of Secrets and Flare are all Counterplay against Ice Block because Ice Block is a Secret, they are Counterplay towards ANY Secret, which Ice Block happens to be.

X works for ALL Ls.

M is an L.

X works for M.

Simple, basic logic.

 

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Quote from Yandai >>

What are your goals when playing mage secrets?

If you play a Counterplay you want to deny a certain spell, but the pure existence of the card leeds to your opponents often playing into a possible counterspell. As the opponent you can try to play around it and actually succeed by baiting the effect.

If you play a Mirror Entity you are hoping to get a big dude, but the possitive byeffect is that your opponents will probably try to bait the secret.

If you play an Ice Block you want to get an extra turn. Your opponent knows that they have to attack you in a certain order to activate it at the lowest amount of health possible, BUT: you have an extra turn. 

Sure it can be important if you trigger iceblock at 1 Health or any higher amount, but in almost every case it wont matter at all. 

That is the reason why all those dudes say that Ice Block is problematic and uninteractive and extremely dull to play against. And yes there are some crazy idiotic ways to possibly counter its Effect. But all of those have one iportant thing in common: they are unplayable in a meta that isnt 90% Ice Block Mage.

And nope Kezan Mystic, Eater of Secrets and Flare arent Counterplays against Ice Block, they are Secret Counterplays in general.

 You have an extra turn just like you counter a spell or copy a minion. Just because the opponent played a minion you don't want into Mirror, that doesn't remove the fact that you get an exact fully unaltered copy of their minion. Same for Counterspell, you still counter a spell, always, not matter what. The Mage always goes immune, no matter if it is at 1 HP preventing 1 damage or at 30 HP preventing 30 damage.

Actually in almost EVERY SINGLE case, it will matter what HP you pop Ice Block at, that is one of the most clueless statements I've ever seen. Have you played more than 10 games with a deck relying on Ice Block? I'm honestly questioning this, because it is only possible for you to state that if you have little to no experience playing decks with the card. People really underestimate the importance of playing around Ice Block. Making the wrong attack order an popping the Block at high HP usually leads to the Mage having even more turns than they should, because if you don't have different damage to kill them from that total, any other kind of tools to stop your attacks or damage sources can easily grant them extra time without even needing to play more Ice Blocks. And you wouldn't believe how frequently that happens.

Specially against a Freeze Mage or others with cards like Alexstrazsa, where the Mage's life total can be changed more easily, and suddenly if they have a 3 or 4 extra turns because you didn't pop them correctly can help them draw cards like Alexstrazsa. Seriously, do NOT underestimate how impactful correctly playing around this card is. This is where the vast majority of players just look at a game they lost and go "oh there was nothing I could have done better", without even taking the time to realize just how poorly they played and how much that influenced the outcome of the game.

And "And nope Kezan Mystic, Eater of Secrets and Flare arent Counterplays against Ice Block, they are Secret Counterplays in general." that a really strange sentence. Kezan Mystic, Eater of Secrets and Flare are all Counterplay against Ice Block because Ice Block is a Secret, they are Counterplay towards ANY Secret, which Ice Block happens to be.

X works for ALL Ls.

M is an L.

X works for M.

Simple, basic logic.

 

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

There is no "is it worth it?" argument here. First, for Ice Block, you are assuming that the Extra Turn is useful to you, which not the case. Play a very large sample size of games with that card and you will see that a high number of Extra turns you get are useless and you concede regardless, meaning they are not "worth it", they didn't accomplish anything.

Quote from Solandris >>

Sorry to bust into the argument but ~ the thing about Ice Block compared to other secrets as I see it, Ice Block doesn't have different outcomes, while Mirror Entity can copy anything from Wisp to Deathwing, Counterspell can hit from coin to Pyroblast, they all generate different amounts o value. Meanwhile, Ice Block doesn't ~ it never says how much hp will you have in that extra turn, could be 1 or 30, but you still get the extra turn to use it in any way you wish ~ can it be prevented? Realistically ~ no, it can't. 

You're right about the secret tech part though, I don't understand that point honestly.

This is waaaay too powerfull xD

Idk if a card that can single-handedly disable a whole deck is healthy for the game

(Preety sure sb made a video about tech cards some time ago talking about it)

Quote from Lyra_Silvertongue >>

 

Quote from Solandris >>

Sorry to bust into the argument but ~ the thing about Ice Block compared to other secrets as I see it, Ice Block doesn't have different outcomes, while Mirror Entity can copy anything from Wisp to Deathwing, Counterspell can hit from coin to Pyroblast, they all generate different amounts o value. Meanwhile, Ice Block doesn't ~ it never says how much hp will you have in that extra turn, could be 1 or 30, but you still get the extra turn to use it in any way you wish ~ can it be prevented? Realistically ~ no, it can't. 

You're right about the secret tech part though, I don't understand that point honestly.

That is the thing though, the amount of health you are at when the block is popped does potentially change how you will use that extra turn. If you don't have lethal and you don't have another Ice Block on your following turn then the plays you will make will drastically depend on what health you are at currently. Different decks that you might face also make this type of situation different. If I'm facing a Spiteful Priest and I was popped at 6 health with no block this turn then my turn well be spent much differently than if I am facing Aggro Pally who popped me at 1 health with no block the next turn. The different outcomes of the secret manifest in how you recover the game the following turn if you don't have lethal yet.

Quote from dimiem >>

 Yandai's logic is the one thats right tho... To have value from the specific secret, it needs to go off by bringing its full value back at least and even more if possible... 

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from dimiem >>

 Yandai's logic is the one thats right tho... To have value from the specific secret, it needs to go off by bringing its full value back at least and even more if possible... 

 That's not true at all. In Mage, all secrets get value by enabling cards like Kabal Crystal Runner and Medivh's Valet.

For a card like Ice Block, which remains on the board for nearly the entire game, this value can be substantial because it allows you to use the Valet's battlecry at will.

 

Quote from Dahkss >>

 

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from dimiem >>

 Yandai's logic is the one thats right tho... To have value from the specific secret, it needs to go off by bringing its full value back at least and even more if possible... 

 That's not true at all. In Mage, all secrets get value by enabling cards like Kabal Crystal Runner and Medivh's Valet.

For a card like Ice Block, which remains on the board for nearly the entire game, this value can be substantial because it allows you to use the Valet's battlecry at will.

 

The card is useful in most Secret Mage's matches for this reason, actually. And, if the opponent happens to pop it, it'll give the Mage the turn she needs to finish the game.

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from Dahkss >>

 

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from dimiem >>

 Yandai's logic is the one thats right tho... To have value from the specific secret, it needs to go off by bringing its full value back at least and even more if possible... 

 That's not true at all. In Mage, all secrets get value by enabling cards like Kabal Crystal Runner and Medivh's Valet.

For a card like Ice Block, which remains on the board for nearly the entire game, this value can be substantial because it allows you to use the Valet's battlecry at will.

 

The card is useful in most Secret Mage's matches for this reason, actually. And, if the opponent happens to pop it, it'll give the Mage the turn she needs to finish the game.

As stated in the OP, Ice Block is one of the worst tempo cards in the game. Did any of you think of why the card only recently found its way into a tempo archetype like secret mage?

The reason is Aluneth, and that card alone. Tempo matchups are won and lost on the board, but that extra draw MIGHT give you the edge in some games, if you don't draw lethal, it is also possible to play some more secrets and refill the board.

However, it is still not in every deck, and that extra turn does very little when decks like dudedin win the earlygame, and prevent any minions from hitting face.

Ice Block is most of all a card for combo decks, and they will struggle to ever see play in standard again.