I mean the problem every time is that people doesn't seem to realise that when you nerf something, then something else will take it's place... Now that the nerfs were anounced, we have soooooo many threads about warlocks and they left untouched... but guess what.. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME... enough with the salty threads and with the ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads!
Of course i don't like a lot of things too and maybe corridor creeper needed indeed some fix because it was EVERYWHERE.. but it's one thing to say that for one card that it's obvious and anohter thing to say that for everything even when they do eventuallu the nerfs...Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is... every time something will outshine the others! Just enjoy the game! peace
I mean the problem every time is that people doesn't seem to realise that when you nerf something, then something else will take it's place... Now that the nerfs were anounced, we have soooooo many threads about warlocks and they left untouched... but guess what.. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME... enough with the salty threads and with the ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads!
Of course i don't like a lot of things too and maybe corridor creeper needed indeed some fix because it was EVERYWHERE.. but it's one thing to say that for one card that it's obvious and anohter thing to say that for everything even when they do eventuallu the nerfs...Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is... every time something will outshine the others! Just enjoy the game! peace
there are some dudes on this site, that they complain about almost anything, and they post 2-3 times/day on salt thread.the only thing that could make them happy is to play a deck without cards, or concede at turn 1, and than those special snowflakes can be happy
People didn't hate Razakus just because of its win percentage. They hated it because it stifled the meta by being a control killer, it had no viable counter, and it was on top for a second expansion.
I can live with tier 1 decks existing. Aggro Paladin can be countered. Control Warlock can be countered. I'm more than happy to spend two months trying to navigate that rather than dealing with the same drudgery we've faced for the past six.
There is a difference between a problematic card that has the potential of "dominating" the meta making it stale and repetitive and a strong card that can be countered or played around. The first type (like Patches the Pirate) is something that should be balanced with a fix, the second type (like Carnivorous Cube, just to say one) is just an powerfull but ok card.
Many topics on this board are just useless rants that should have been put into the Salt Thread, but lots of them were good analisys about some of HS issues that are currently in the game. When so many players rightfully point out something with good arguments, then probably there is really something "broken" and a fix should've been made lots of weeks ago. So yea: there will always be tons of threads by people screaming out what a deck is actually powerfull, dominating or simply broken but not all of them are to be considered useless whines.
No of course, they are not whines because they point out something that it's wrong... but that exactly was my point just like yours... that there are here and there some cards that need fix like Patches but people seem to have lost the ball and when the make a losing streak they also make a salt thread... bottom line i agree with your point!
Obviously there will always be a dominate deck and cards that are better than the rest, but there is a problem when those cards and decks are too strong compared to everything else. For example: if there was a 5 mana card that gave you the win when played, would it be ok to call for a nerf? I mean, if you nerf it then some other card then becomes the best card in the game, so is there a point? Yes, cards that are too strong need to be nerfed to keep the broken cards and decks close enough that others can be competitive.
That doesn't mean the game needs to be perfectly balanced, that just means that broken cards and decks need to be kept in check to keep them from being tier 0 (meaning there is no consistent way of beating them).
People didn't hate Razakus just because of its win percentage. They hated it because it stifled the meta by being a control killer, it had no viable counter, and it was on top for a second expansion.
I can live with tier 1 decks existing. Aggro Paladin can be countered. Control Warlock can be countered. I'm more than happy to spend two months trying to navigate that rather than dealing with the same drudgery we've faced for the past six.
That's actually a nice perspective to think that these changes will offer us another meta until the rotation... i just say that everything must exist control,combo,midrange and aggro of course!! And when someone ask for nerf, it has to be for the right reasons and not just because ''it has big win percentage'' ( cause this is what they say now the majority of course)... fair point!
People didn't hate Razakus just because of its win percentage. They hated it because it stifled the meta by being a control killer, it had no viable counter, and it was on top for a second expansion.
I can live with tier 1 decks existing. Aggro Paladin can be countered. Control Warlock can be countered. I'm more than happy to spend two months trying to navigate that rather than dealing with the same drudgery we've faced for the past six.
FWIW - if you go to the "meta" page on HSReplays, you'll note that Jade Druid (with a 70% win-rate in the match-up) is a hard counter to Razakus. In addition, more than ten decks have win-rates above 55% against Razakus. You'll also have to concede that the meta currently favours control decks (29% of the meta, again according to HSReplays), rather than "stifling" their presence on ladder. Current iterations of control decks simply aren't "value-based," but instead feature a prominent win-condition.
It's also worthwhile recognizing that the current meta-game appears to be unique in HS history - by far the two best decks on ladder simply aren't played. Two flavours of Paladin builds are 2% ahead of the rest of the ladder in terms of win-rate, and both enjoy quite favourable match-ups against the most popular decks on ladder. Yet, they are currently only the 11th and 13th most-played decks. If HS possessed a community that was more interested in actually understanding the game, rather than bitching about how stupid the designers are, discussions of the depressed play-rate of Paladin would be dominating sites like Hearthpwn and the subreddit - Big Spell Mage has a higher play-rate than Murloc Paladin, despite having a win-rate more than 10% worse.
Sure i agree,actually really nice point! But we have nerfs and already people wanted even more cards to be nerfed and this is absurd! This isn't a ''support blizzard'' post, i just want to say that the thing with ''every card that beat us the previous game has to be nerfed''!!
I’m willing to let the meta shake out to see what happens but the current fear isn’t about a tier 1 deck, it’s about a complete meta stifling tier 0 deck. Cubelock has the potential to become this with a few of the other top tier decks that kept it in check getting nerfs.
Having a most dominant deck doesn't necessarily mean that a meta is cancerous, nor does having a bunch of good decks make for a healthy meta. It's okay to have one deck being the best if there's multiple decks in the meta that can counter it and a huge variety of strategies and archetypes available. The Un'Goro meta, which many people consider the most balanced meta in Hearthstone, had Pirate Warrior as the clear king. You can make Pirate Warrior=cancer jokes all you want, you could easily tech your decks to beat pirate warrior, and all of control, midrange, aggro, and combo were viable, often with multiple strategies open for a single class. Heck even Warrior had a nice control deck going via Taunt Warrior to combat Pirate Warrior. There were very few nerfs necessary because the top classes didn't stifle a plethora of playstyles. Then you have a meta like TgT where the triad of Patron Warrior, Secret Paladin, and Midrange Druid reigned supreme. However, these decks were so oppressive that you either played one of these classes or a class to counter one of them (and get crushed by the others), and led to a very stale meta. As such, all 3 were hit with multiple nerfs to keep them in line and eventually led to the creation of standard to get rid of the problematic cards.
I mean the problem every time is that people doesn't seem to realise that when you nerf something, then something else will take it's place... Now that the nerfs were anounced, we have soooooo many threads about warlocks and they left untouched... but guess what.. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME... enough with the salty threads and with the ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads!
Of course i don't like a lot of things too and maybe corridor creeper needed indeed some fix because it was EVERYWHERE.. but it's one thing to say that for one card that it's obvious and anohter thing to say that for everything even when they do eventuallu the nerfs...Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is... every time something will outshine the others! Just enjoy the game! peace
there are some dudes on this site, that they complain about almost anything, and they post 2-3 times/day on salt thread.the only thing that could make them happy is to play a deck without cards, or concede at turn 1, and than those special snowflakes can be happy
Welcome to Hearthpwn.
It's not just the salt thread ... its systematic for the site. The majority of the posts are salt, or veiled salt. Seriously .. outside of the pepper thread, how often do you see a thread that isn't either salty, or full of insults?
The question is .. is that a result of a busted game, or a busted community. I'd love to hear some comments on that question.
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I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
If HS possessed a community that was more interested in actually understanding the game, rather than bitching about how stupid the designers are, discussions of the depressed play-rate of Paladin would be dominating sites like Hearthpwn and the subreddit - Big Spell Mage has a higher play-rate than Murloc Paladin, despite having a win-rate more than 10% worse.
I mean the problem every time is that people doesn't seem to realise that when you nerf something, then something else will take it's place... Now that the nerfs were anounced, we have soooooo many threads about warlocks and they left untouched... but guess what.. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME... enough with the salty threads and with the ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads!
Of course i don't like a lot of things too and maybe corridor creeper needed indeed some fix because it was EVERYWHERE.. but it's one thing to say that for one card that it's obvious and anohter thing to say that for everything even when they do eventuallu the nerfs...Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is... every time something will outshine the others! Just enjoy the game! peace
there are some dudes on this site, that they complain about almost anything, and they post 2-3 times/day on salt thread.the only thing that could make them happy is to play a deck without cards, or concede at turn 1, and than those special snowflakes can be happy
Welcome to Hearthpwn.
It's not just the salt thread ... its systematic for the site. The majority of the posts are salt, or veiled salt. Seriously .. outside of the pepper thread, how often do you see a thread that isn't either salty, or full of insults?
The question is .. is that a result of a busted game, or a busted community. I'd love to hear some comments on that question.
its the community's fault, and i personally think that the salt thread its a bad idea, because there gathers all snowflakes and to insult anyone who doesnt have the same opinion. And heartpwn has his fault, because on those threads players can insult others, behind the"salt thread" cover too. Just imagine if HS had a chat ingame LOL
Wrong. Dota is a game where balance patches are released all the time. If hearthstone was dota Patches the Pirate for example would have been nerfed 1-2 months after its release, not after 2 years.
I mean the problem every time is that people doesn't seem to realise that when you nerf something, then something else will take it's place... Now that the nerfs were anounced, we have soooooo many threads about warlocks and they left untouched... but guess what.. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME... enough with the salty threads and with the ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads!
Of course i don't like a lot of things too and maybe corridor creeper needed indeed some fix because it was EVERYWHERE.. but it's one thing to say that for one card that it's obvious and anohter thing to say that for everything even when they do eventuallu the nerfs...Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is... every time something will outshine the others! Just enjoy the game! peace
there are some dudes on this site, that they complain about almost anything, and they post 2-3 times/day on salt thread.the only thing that could make them happy is to play a deck without cards, or concede at turn 1, and than those special snowflakes can be happy
Welcome to Hearthpwn.
It's not just the salt thread ... its systematic for the site. The majority of the posts are salt, or veiled salt. Seriously .. outside of the pepper thread, how often do you see a thread that isn't either salty, or full of insults?
The question is .. is that a result of a busted game, or a busted community. I'd love to hear some comments on that question.
its the community's fault, and i personally think that the salt thread its a bad idea, because there gathers all snowflakes and to insult anyone who doesnt have the same opinion. And heartpwn has his fault, because on those threads players can insult others, behind the"salt thread" cover too. Just imagine if HS had a chat ingame LOL
Just imagine if HS had a chat ingame LOL
Oddly enough, I think the lack of ingame chat is partially responsible for players being so caustic in forums, and in game messaging.
I. like many others here, played WoW for years. And of course it has both the server chat, and whispers. Sure, you had some players with shitty attitudes, but you also had some community interaction as well, and you had plenty of players that would congrats you on a good fight.
Not having any way to vent frustration in game, and rarely ever getting positive feedback could be a lot of the reason so many players are just downright pissed half the time. I think Blizz took the lazy way out with HS chat. They didn't want to have to moderate it, so they eliminated it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
I mean the problem every time is that people doesn't seem to realise that when you nerf something, then something else will take it's place... Now that the nerfs were anounced, we have soooooo many threads about warlocks and they left untouched... but guess what.. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME... enough with the salty threads and with the ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads!
Of course i don't like a lot of things too and maybe corridor creeper needed indeed some fix because it was EVERYWHERE.. but it's one thing to say that for one card that it's obvious and anohter thing to say that for everything even when they do eventuallu the nerfs...Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is... every time something will outshine the others! Just enjoy the game! peace
Considering this a Blizztarded comment by someone who like many others before him, once again tries an overhaul of the idea that:
Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is...
This is what card games is like? unbalanced, undiverse, aggro-aggressive oriented, therefore mindless? There are a lot of people who like a game of skill. A game where their insight get respected and recognized through balanced, not OP-card design (which later will be nerfed too late).
When the window dress is that there is skill in the game and only thing you get are mindless decks, taking you down, well yes you are going to hold Blizzard responsible for their failure in better balanced card design.
There is no such thing as "this is what card games.." are. There is always a choice in what is printed. And that determents the state of the game. Don't give me that myth of the given - crap.
First of all you are like all the others where you just rage because you can't prove your ''truth'' in any other way. Second of all you are salty because you still refer and aggro things like they are all mindless... but i have some news for you... a card can be mindless... NOT A WHOLE DECK... aggro in reality needs skill cause you have to choose what's your nexti move on ex. turn 5 cause turn 6 might be a voidlord... as i said you just blame and flame with no reason at all and ofc you say its all aggros fault
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I mean the problem every time is that people doesn't seem to realise that when you nerf something, then something else will take it's place... Now that the nerfs were anounced, we have soooooo many threads about warlocks and they left untouched... but guess what.. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME... enough with the salty threads and with the ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads!
Of course i don't like a lot of things too and maybe corridor creeper needed indeed some fix because it was EVERYWHERE.. but it's one thing to say that for one card that it's obvious and anohter thing to say that for everything even when they do eventuallu the nerfs...Stop blame blizzard or everything else every time and try to understand that this is what card games or other game like LOL or DOTA is... every time something will outshine the others! Just enjoy the game! peace
A different meta, that's what.
People didn't hate Razakus just because of its win percentage. They hated it because it stifled the meta by being a control killer, it had no viable counter, and it was on top for a second expansion.
I can live with tier 1 decks existing. Aggro Paladin can be countered. Control Warlock can be countered. I'm more than happy to spend two months trying to navigate that rather than dealing with the same drudgery we've faced for the past six.
There is a difference between a problematic card that has the potential of "dominating" the meta making it stale and repetitive and a strong card that can be countered or played around. The first type (like Patches the Pirate) is something that should be balanced with a fix, the second type (like Carnivorous Cube, just to say one) is just an powerfull but ok card.
Many topics on this board are just useless rants that should have been put into the Salt Thread, but lots of them were good analisys about some of HS issues that are currently in the game. When so many players rightfully point out something with good arguments, then probably there is really something "broken" and a fix should've been made lots of weeks ago. So yea: there will always be tons of threads by people screaming out what a deck is actually powerfull, dominating or simply broken but not all of them are to be considered useless whines.
For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
Once something powerful becomes omnipresent and a player's choice become "play with these power cards or play a bad deck", your argument falls apart.
No of course, they are not whines because they point out something that it's wrong... but that exactly was my point just like yours... that there are here and there some cards that need fix like Patches but people seem to have lost the ball and when the make a losing streak they also make a salt thread... bottom line i agree with your point!
Obviously there will always be a dominate deck and cards that are better than the rest, but there is a problem when those cards and decks are too strong compared to everything else. For example: if there was a 5 mana card that gave you the win when played, would it be ok to call for a nerf? I mean, if you nerf it then some other card then becomes the best card in the game, so is there a point? Yes, cards that are too strong need to be nerfed to keep the broken cards and decks close enough that others can be competitive.
That doesn't mean the game needs to be perfectly balanced, that just means that broken cards and decks need to be kept in check to keep them from being tier 0 (meaning there is no consistent way of beating them).
Sure i agree,actually really nice point! But we have nerfs and already people wanted even more cards to be nerfed and this is absurd! This isn't a ''support blizzard'' post, i just want to say that the thing with ''every card that beat us the previous game has to be nerfed''!!
I’m willing to let the meta shake out to see what happens but the current fear isn’t about a tier 1 deck, it’s about a complete meta stifling tier 0 deck. Cubelock has the potential to become this with a few of the other top tier decks that kept it in check getting nerfs.
When even priests play pirate package and tempo cards is clear something is wrong.
What is best? See hundred of cards be useful for many diferent archetypes or see the same ******* 5 cards over and over and over again in ALL games?
Who ask for nerfs only see some cards are broken and without a fix kill all other possibilities, like Patches, Bonemare and Creeper.
Having a most dominant deck doesn't necessarily mean that a meta is cancerous, nor does having a bunch of good decks make for a healthy meta. It's okay to have one deck being the best if there's multiple decks in the meta that can counter it and a huge variety of strategies and archetypes available. The Un'Goro meta, which many people consider the most balanced meta in Hearthstone, had Pirate Warrior as the clear king. You can make Pirate Warrior=cancer jokes all you want, you could easily tech your decks to beat pirate warrior, and all of control, midrange, aggro, and combo were viable, often with multiple strategies open for a single class. Heck even Warrior had a nice control deck going via Taunt Warrior to combat Pirate Warrior. There were very few nerfs necessary because the top classes didn't stifle a plethora of playstyles. Then you have a meta like TgT where the triad of Patron Warrior, Secret Paladin, and Midrange Druid reigned supreme. However, these decks were so oppressive that you either played one of these classes or a class to counter one of them (and get crushed by the others), and led to a very stale meta. As such, all 3 were hit with multiple nerfs to keep them in line and eventually led to the creation of standard to get rid of the problematic cards.
It's not just the salt thread ... its systematic for the site. The majority of the posts are salt, or veiled salt. Seriously .. outside of the pepper thread, how often do you see a thread that isn't either salty, or full of insults?
The question is .. is that a result of a busted game, or a busted community. I'd love to hear some comments on that question.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
@Haussenfuss
i dont reply very often, but man you're so fucking right, its a shame that i can only upvote once
True man ,your last sentece is all i want to say
Wrong. Dota is a game where balance patches are released all the time. If hearthstone was dota Patches the Pirate for example would have been nerfed 1-2 months after its release, not after 2 years.
Quasi-stellar radio source
Oddly enough, I think the lack of ingame chat is partially responsible for players being so caustic in forums, and in game messaging.
I. like many others here, played WoW for years. And of course it has both the server chat, and whispers. Sure, you had some players with shitty attitudes, but you also had some community interaction as well, and you had plenty of players that would congrats you on a good fight.
Not having any way to vent frustration in game, and rarely ever getting positive feedback could be a lot of the reason so many players are just downright pissed half the time. I think Blizz took the lazy way out with HS chat. They didn't want to have to moderate it, so they eliminated it.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile