Dr. Boom didn't need anything to be on the board for a bullshit, insane swing happening at 7 mana and it was played in every deck. There was a Boom in Patron Warrior, Freeze Mage, Zoo
Bonemare isn't as strong even in the perfect scenario and requires setup.
#Game is fine, l2p.
This is the reason that in order to play around Bonemare, you must clear every single board on turn 7 and later, which - with the current pool of removal - is next to impossible.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
Boom was stronger in context, but side by side, Bonemare is run much more frequently than Boom with the current card pool, so that should tell you something about the strength of neutral cards (that something is that neutral cards are way too strong).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
And Shadowreaper Anduin is also cancer. Keeping cancer in check *with moar cancer* is not good EVER, in game or real life...
What are you talking about? SRA is a solid and well designed card. It happens to be a bit too strong right now in conjunction with Raza, but by itself, it's just a good fair card.
Immediate trigger: 9-cost Jaina - get a 3/6. New Hero power - Deal 1 damage and maybe get a new 3/6
9-cost Anduin - Kill *ALL 5 cost AND ABOVE minions*
New Hero power - Deal *2* damage (usu. for free) and refresh as many times as you want, usu. for *1* mana.
Definitely balanced. Nothing to see here. Move along and ignore every other person playing machine-gun Priest...
"We're getting to a point in Hearthstone where - because the strength of removal has not kept up with the strength of neutral minions - the answer to minions isn't removal, it's simply more minions, and this is the reason control is all but dead. "
We're also - by and large - in agreement. I just disagree that SRA is either *balanced* or fun.
And Shadowreaper Anduin is also cancer. Keeping cancer in check *with moar cancer* is not good EVER, in game or real life...
What are you talking about? SRA is a solid and well designed card. It happens to be a bit too strong right now in conjunction with Raza, but by itself, it's just a good fair card.
Immediate trigger: 9-cost Jaina - get a 3/6. New Hero power - Deal 1 damage and maybe get a new 3/6
9-cost Anduin - Kill *ALL 5 cost AND ABOVE minions*
New Hero power - Deal *2* damage (usu. for free) and refresh as many times as you want, usu. for *1* mana
Definitely balanced. Nothing to see here. Move along and ignore every other person playing machine-gun Priest...
If you're playing SRA and using the hero power for the full cost, you need to think through each decision and use your mana + hero power optimally. One mistake can cost you the game. It's far less forgiving than with Raza. Not to mention, it's much less punishing to play around SRA than to play around Bonemare, and SRA affects your own board too.
Comparing it to Frostlich Jaina, I think Jaina's potentially can be better in the long run. One reason Control Mage isn't that strong right now? Cards like Scalebane and Bonemare.
Bonemare is an excellent card design. Expensive, but good enough to play in constructed. Powerful, but not a card that wins the game by itself. It's precisely as strong as a card of its cost should be, not like Frost Lich Jaina or the other DKs which dish out such absurd amounts of value that you aren't required to have anything else to win the lategame. It's fair, and probably the best neutral card design they released this year besides Primordial Drake.
The reason I feel like Bonemare is ok is not that I would not agree - Yes it is too strong - but rather that it is a very good common card (like Cobalt Scalebane).
Itwould be unhealthy for the game if there were no good cheap cards. If you can only compete by getting literally at least 5 Priest Legendarys (Raza, Kazakus, Lyra, SR Anduin, Prophet V) then the game is not in a good state considering it is a Free to Play game. So I agree that Bonemarecould use a nerf, but please nerf Shadowreaper Anduin and Bloodreaver Gul'dan alongside it...
* Before anybody judges me - I started off as a F2P near the end of closed beta, started buying packs around TGT (one pre-purchase lot per expansion), and stopped paying with KFT, cause the expansion looked sh*t - and what do you know, it turned out it is. Not very excited about the next one either and probably Blizz won't see a dollar from me any time soon.
Actually it would be very healthy for the game if top decks required loads of high-dust cards with commons and rares being just cheap replacements. People would have to be a bit more inventive - sure there would be F2P netdecking, but you would have different experience at different tiers of the ladder and overall you would face a wider variety of decks as well. Not to mention there would be a higher variety in the decklists between players. Finally your collection would feel that much more personal and worth something, while now my collection feels pretty meh just as all of Hearthstone.
To put it simpler - Expensive decks mean you are having fun at every level of play and how much you pay just determines where you compete. Inexpensive decks mean that everybody's playing the exact same sh*t over and over, you don't get to have fun and you still pay something to get the basic experience. Your rank is determined by your endurance - how much time you are willing to spend not having fun with the game.
Concerning Bonemare - terrible card, along with Keleseth and Scalebane it's messing up the meta. The card isn't broken because it's broken - it's not about the effect or the strength, it's broken because it's 7-mana.
The card is too good and too impactful when played, to just ignore it in an aggressive list, but at the same time it's a situational 7-mana card - many times you will lose the game by drawing this in the early turns. And it would be fine if the rest of the aggro curve ended below 5 mana. The thing is most Rogues and Warlocks - current kings of aggro - run 8 to 12 cards that are 5 mana and above - that basically turns Herthstone into a glorified slot machine. If you draw your heavy cards early on - you won't build a board and you will lose. If you'll draw them too late, you'll lose the board and you'll lose the game. You draw them at the right time and your opponent has to gg.
That's not Wizard Poker. That's Wizard Solitaire. Your only agency as the player is guessing the order in which the cards are dealt. No player interaction, no means to manouver around a bad hand - just drawing cards and seeing if they fit the curve. This is worse than anything I've experienced in Hearthstone. But I predict that we'll reach a new low with the next expansion.
I have to disagree completely with the OP. Because we do not see the alternative meta without Bonemare, we just assume it would be better without it. I think it makes it way better.
Bonemare has destroyed aggro in this meta. Yes, the decks it runs in feel very aggressive, but they are more mid-range than good old fashion, SMOrc aggro. Aggro was loads of early minions in the early game going face, and after turn five, finishing the opponent off with spells/weapons.
The power level of Bonemare has made it such that it is not optimal to do that any longer. Because on turn 5 aggro has the board, and Bonemare is so huge in turn 7, thanks to Bonemare it is more important to curve out til turn 7, that have on hand those spells to finish off your opponent.
Cards like Cairne Bloodhoof would never see play in aggro. But now we see it because it allows to curve out until turn 7. Even Cobalt Scalebane is good because it is a big body for turn 7. In aggro you would never play anything that can not immediately deal more damage face!
So no, Bonemare did not devastated this meta. Thanks to Bonemare the new aggressive decks play on the board instead of with spells, are more mid range, and are therefore more fun and interactive!
Comparing Dr. 7 to Bonemare is hilarious and not at all comparable. First, there were board clears that immediately cleared Dr. 7 at the loss of a max of 8 life(incredibly rare). Second, it was a legendary so you only saw Dr. 7 once a game. Third, there was no pseudo haste part to the card. Fourth, it didn't give you a giant taunt creature(or two very large creatures total) which really negates certain decks immediately.
It's sad to see a universal common compared to a top Legendary, a top rare which was put into legacy and other game changing cards. It is too powerful and hinders certain decks from seeing play which is considered a problem by Blizzard. When about half of the game is a variation of Kelesith/Bonemare you have a problem. At least the broken Raza priest decks are based on three legends and really use 4-5. Jade druid was another Blizzard mistake. They don't really test the cards before release.
I'm not even going into the extremely broken arena environment because of this card. The entire experience is dominated by who drafted more Bonemares. Not at all healthy. Bonemare should have been either an 8 cost card or with +3/+3 as an epic. You don't want to see more than a very lucky two in any deck in arena.
that's responsible for this mess we are in....1 card to defeat all control decks is dumb.....and the only card broken enough to combat the madness.
Those warped the meta, along with blizzard "monitoring" it....then "monitoring some more"....then "eh it'll rotate" because fuck wild or balance amirite.
Bonemare while annoying, insane in its own right, and Don Han'chos arch nemesis...is ok
I think the problem with bonemare is the offensive utility it has... It is a great taunt/wall and it can create massive finishers. Lately its been killing me more than stopping me from killing them
Honestly,Bonemare is a solid and powerful card,but i'd rather cancel patches from the game ,instead of bonemare.
The moment you see a captain pull out a 4/4 patches for free after double keleseth...feelsbadman!
Patches is underestimated,he is the real cancer :D yaaaar
Or perhaps triple Prince Keleseth. Are you sure that patches is the real cancer? Not to mention that you can always draw him... a card that insanely increases your winrate by just draw it on turn 2 without any drawback should not exist imo.
@topic: Do you guys remember Dr. Boom ? Yeah, Bonemare is way better.
The reason I feel like Bonemare is ok is not that I would not agree - Yes it is too strong - but rather that it is a very good common card (like Cobalt Scalebane).
Itwould be unhealthy for the game if there were no good cheap cards. If you can only compete by getting literally at least 5 Priest Legendarys (Raza, Kazakus, Lyra, SR Anduin, Prophet V) then the game is not in a good state considering it is a Free to Play game. So I agree that Bonemarecould use a nerf, but please nerf Shadowreaper Anduin and Bloodreaver Gul'dan alongside it...
* Before anybody judges me - I started off as a F2P near the end of closed beta, started buying packs around TGT (one pre-purchase lot per expansion), and stopped paying with KFT, cause the expansion looked sh*t - and what do you know, it turned out it is. Not very excited about the next one either and probably Blizz won't see a dollar from me any time soon.
Actually it would be very healthy for the game if top decks required loads of high-dust cards with commons and rares being just cheap replacements. People would have to be a bit more inventive - sure there would be F2P netdecking, but you would have different experience at different tiers of the ladder and overall you would face a wider variety of decks as well. Not to mention there would be a higher variety in the decklists between players. Finally your collection would feel that much more personal and worth something, while now my collection feels pretty meh just as all of Hearthstone.
To put it simpler - Expensive decks mean you are having fun at every level of play and how much you pay just determines where you compete. Inexpensive decks mean that everybody's playing the exact same sh*t over and over, you don't get to have fun and you still pay something to get the basic experience. Your rank is determined by your endurance - how much time you are willing to spend not having fun with the game.
Concerning Bonemare - terrible card, along with Keleseth and Scalebane it's messing up the meta. The card isn't broken because it's broken - it's not about the effect or the strength, it's broken because it's 7-mana.
The card is too good and too impactful when played, to just ignore it in an aggressive list, but at the same time it's a situational 7-mana card - many times you will lose the game by drawing this in the early turns. And it would be fine if the rest of the aggro curve ended below 5 mana. The thing is most Rogues and Warlocks - current kings of aggro - run 8 to 12 cards that are 5 mana and above - that basically turns Herthstone into a glorified slot machine. If you draw your heavy cards early on - you won't build a board and you will lose. If you'll draw them too late, you'll lose the board and you'll lose the game. You draw them at the right time and your opponent has to gg.
That's not Wizard Poker. That's Wizard Solitaire. Your only agency as the player is guessing the order in which the cards are dealt. No player interaction, no means to manouver around a bad hand - just drawing cards and seeing if they fit the curve. This is worse than anything I've experienced in Hearthstone. But I predict that we'll reach a new low with the next expansion.
I can somehow get behind the argumentation of the first half of your post - there are upsides to very expensive strong cards it even though free to plays would cry in pain and anger... But you are way too negative about the state of the game. There are strong non-meta decks that you can play. No need for Bonemare all day long if you dislike it. I got to Legend with a Mill-Warlock last season (and up to rank 3 with a Inner Fire Priest) -> both without bone mare or scalebane. People are just on average not very creative. There is still room to explore!!! Especially in wild!
The one point where I completely disagree is the part about the no skill curve thing: A Curve-Intense meta is actually way more skill intense than one where most cards have a similar cost... Starting like turn 4 you have to think about how to use your resources in the following turns for a good power play turn 6 - in order to setup a clear or your own bone mare maybe... With curve-intense decks you gotta play way more around their possible best play, than vs a zoo deck full of 1-3 drops...
I agree that there is skill in curve-play and planning ahead to keep tempo on curve. The problem is that skill will be a factor in - let's be generous - 80% of games. And I'm talking mirror style decks. The other 20% is completely out of your control - your opponent gets a god curve with Keleseth and you don't, your opponent goes first and top-decks a Bonemare on curve. You Mulligan heavy drops out of your hand and still end up with 4 cards out of which not a single one is cheaper than 5 mana. These games are out of your control. And there is the other 20% where You are the one drawing like a god, you may have the skill, but still that is not the reason why you are winning. This is the problem - such a heavy curve pretty much acts as a second Keleseth again double dipping the game in draw-rng.
Let's say I'm overestimating these factors, though I don't think so. Let's say that a total of 20% of games is either way based purely on both players draws. That means that 2 out of 10 games you've played mean nothing - they are either too easy or frustrating and you feel either overpowered or underpowered despite facing an opponent with a very similar deck and probably at a similar skill level. That means that 20% of the time you spend in the game isn't even remotely fun, quite contrary, it's annoying, it's like a job you hate. Let's say you play 100 games a season - 20 games, 6 minutes each -roughly 2 hours wasted entirely, 2 hours of frustration and making the best of a hopeless situation. And I'm not counting regular gaming stuff, these aren't regular losses, these aren't regular lucky wins. These are the extremes.
About the decks - this is the first time since Christmas Tree Paladin meta, that I feel that I can't play a deck a of my own in competitive ranks. And I'm used to playing bad decks to poor results, I used to run stuff like Gadgetzan Lock'n'Load Hunter. Now you can't do stuff like that.
I have to disagree completely with the OP. Because we do not see the alternative meta without Bonemare, we just assume it would be better without it. I think it makes it way better.
Bonemare has destroyed aggro in this meta. Yes, the decks it runs in feel very aggressive, but they are more mid-range than good old fashion, SMOrc aggro. Aggro was loads of early minions in the early game going face, and after turn five, finishing the opponent off with spells/weapons.
The power level of Bonemare has made it such that it is not optimal to do that any longer. Because on turn 5 aggro has the board, and Bonemare is so huge in turn 7, thanks to Bonemare it is more important to curve out til turn 7, that have on hand those spells to finish off your opponent.
Cards like Cairne Bloodhoof would never see play in aggro. But now we see it because it allows to curve out until turn 7. Even Cobalt Scalebane is good because it is a big body for turn 7. In aggro you would never play anything that can not immediately deal more damage face!
So no, Bonemare did not devastated this meta. Thanks to Bonemare the new aggressive decks play on the board instead of with spells, are more mid range, and are therefore more fun and interactive!
Thank you Bonemare!
Yeah, lose to a single card by turn 2ish is more fun and interactive for sure. CoolStoryBob
bonemare is only strong because of the overtuned early game that enables it, bonemare would be nothing without the insane start of warlock and rogue
keleseth pirate package is the only reason bonemare is good
I disagree, it's strong in Paladin and Druid too.
That said, these threads fall on deaf ears I feel because Blizzard never 'fix' cards until the end of an expansion cycle normally, its very rare it will get fixed early.. they're pretty slow at that.
Bonemare is meh in Druid and in Paladin it is strong because of the Murloc Package. If the Pirate and Murloc Package didn't offer such a huge early game advantage to Warlock/Paladin/Shaman/Rogue ect then Bonemare would be strong but not oppressive like it is now.
It just lands too consistently because of these decks ability to brainlessly shit out minions is all.
I have to disagree completely with the OP. Because we do not see the alternative meta without Bonemare, we just assume it would be better without it. I think it makes it way better.
Bonemare has destroyed aggro in this meta. Yes, the decks it runs in feel very aggressive, but they are more mid-range than good old fashion, SMOrc aggro. Aggro was loads of early minions in the early game going face, and after turn five, finishing the opponent off with spells/weapons.
The power level of Bonemare has made it such that it is not optimal to do that any longer. Because on turn 5 aggro has the board, and Bonemare is so huge in turn 7, thanks to Bonemare it is more important to curve out til turn 7, that have on hand those spells to finish off your opponent.
Cards like Cairne Bloodhoof would never see play in aggro. But now we see it because it allows to curve out until turn 7. Even Cobalt Scalebane is good because it is a big body for turn 7. In aggro you would never play anything that can not immediately deal more damage face!
So no, Bonemare did not devastated this meta. Thanks to Bonemare the new aggressive decks play on the board instead of with spells, are more mid range, and are therefore more fun and interactive!
Thank you Bonemare!
I agree, this is a midrange meta, and bonemare is a midrange card. Aggro metas have existed, with aggro shaman, face hunter and pirate warrior being top dogs, but this is not one of those. Midrange metas have also happened, specially at times when curving out nax minions, dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder was the way to win games.
Jade druid is a control deck, but nobody really appreciated the "control meta" it brought, it just sounds much better in theory. Control warriors with 50 armor was not always the most inspiring deck to play against either.
Top decks will always be oppressive, and completely dominate decks many like. It's unavoidable...
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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Boom was stronger in context, but side by side, Bonemare is run much more frequently than Boom with the current card pool, so that should tell you something about the strength of neutral cards (that something is that neutral cards are way too strong).
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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"We're getting to a point in Hearthstone where - because the strength of removal has not kept up with the strength of neutral minions - the answer to minions isn't removal, it's simply more minions, and this is the reason control is all but dead. "
We're also - by and large - in agreement. I just disagree that SRA is either *balanced* or fun.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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Bonemare is an excellent card design. Expensive, but good enough to play in constructed. Powerful, but not a card that wins the game by itself. It's precisely as strong as a card of its cost should be, not like Frost Lich Jaina or the other DKs which dish out such absurd amounts of value that you aren't required to have anything else to win the lategame. It's fair, and probably the best neutral card design they released this year besides Primordial Drake.
Actually it would be very healthy for the game if top decks required loads of high-dust cards with commons and rares being just cheap replacements. People would have to be a bit more inventive - sure there would be F2P netdecking, but you would have different experience at different tiers of the ladder and overall you would face a wider variety of decks as well. Not to mention there would be a higher variety in the decklists between players. Finally your collection would feel that much more personal and worth something, while now my collection feels pretty meh just as all of Hearthstone.
To put it simpler - Expensive decks mean you are having fun at every level of play and how much you pay just determines where you compete. Inexpensive decks mean that everybody's playing the exact same sh*t over and over, you don't get to have fun and you still pay something to get the basic experience. Your rank is determined by your endurance - how much time you are willing to spend not having fun with the game.
Concerning Bonemare - terrible card, along with Keleseth and Scalebane it's messing up the meta. The card isn't broken because it's broken - it's not about the effect or the strength, it's broken because it's 7-mana.
The card is too good and too impactful when played, to just ignore it in an aggressive list, but at the same time it's a situational 7-mana card - many times you will lose the game by drawing this in the early turns. And it would be fine if the rest of the aggro curve ended below 5 mana. The thing is most Rogues and Warlocks - current kings of aggro - run 8 to 12 cards that are 5 mana and above - that basically turns Herthstone into a glorified slot machine. If you draw your heavy cards early on - you won't build a board and you will lose. If you'll draw them too late, you'll lose the board and you'll lose the game. You draw them at the right time and your opponent has to gg.
That's not Wizard Poker. That's Wizard Solitaire. Your only agency as the player is guessing the order in which the cards are dealt. No player interaction, no means to manouver around a bad hand - just drawing cards and seeing if they fit the curve. This is worse than anything I've experienced in Hearthstone. But I predict that we'll reach a new low with the next expansion.
I have to disagree completely with the OP. Because we do not see the alternative meta without Bonemare, we just assume it would be better without it. I think it makes it way better.
Bonemare has destroyed aggro in this meta. Yes, the decks it runs in feel very aggressive, but they are more mid-range than good old fashion, SMOrc aggro. Aggro was loads of early minions in the early game going face, and after turn five, finishing the opponent off with spells/weapons.
The power level of Bonemare has made it such that it is not optimal to do that any longer. Because on turn 5 aggro has the board, and Bonemare is so huge in turn 7, thanks to Bonemare it is more important to curve out til turn 7, that have on hand those spells to finish off your opponent.
Cards like Cairne Bloodhoof would never see play in aggro. But now we see it because it allows to curve out until turn 7. Even Cobalt Scalebane is good because it is a big body for turn 7. In aggro you would never play anything that can not immediately deal more damage face!
So no, Bonemare did not devastated this meta. Thanks to Bonemare the new aggressive decks play on the board instead of with spells, are more mid range, and are therefore more fun and interactive!
Thank you Bonemare!
Comparing Dr. 7 to Bonemare is hilarious and not at all comparable. First, there were board clears that immediately cleared Dr. 7 at the loss of a max of 8 life(incredibly rare). Second, it was a legendary so you only saw Dr. 7 once a game. Third, there was no pseudo haste part to the card. Fourth, it didn't give you a giant taunt creature(or two very large creatures total) which really negates certain decks immediately.
It's sad to see a universal common compared to a top Legendary, a top rare which was put into legacy and other game changing cards. It is too powerful and hinders certain decks from seeing play which is considered a problem by Blizzard. When about half of the game is a variation of Kelesith/Bonemare you have a problem. At least the broken Raza priest decks are based on three legends and really use 4-5. Jade druid was another Blizzard mistake. They don't really test the cards before release.
I'm not even going into the extremely broken arena environment because of this card. The entire experience is dominated by who drafted more Bonemares. Not at all healthy. Bonemare should have been either an 8 cost card or with +3/+3 as an epic. You don't want to see more than a very lucky two in any deck in arena.
you want to balance Bonemare make The Black Knight destroy a taunt minion and gain it stats LUL
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
it's actually this card ---------> Jade Idol
and this card ------- Patches the Pirate
that's responsible for this mess we are in....1 card to defeat all control decks is dumb.....and the only card broken enough to combat the madness.
Those warped the meta, along with blizzard "monitoring" it....then "monitoring some more"....then "eh it'll rotate" because fuck wild or balance amirite.
Bonemare while annoying, insane in its own right, and Don Han'chos arch nemesis...is ok
I think the problem with bonemare is the offensive utility it has... It is a great taunt/wall and it can create massive finishers. Lately its been killing me more than stopping me from killing them
"I am unfortunately, the hero of ages" -Harmony
Let's say I'm overestimating these factors, though I don't think so. Let's say that a total of 20% of games is either way based purely on both players draws. That means that 2 out of 10 games you've played mean nothing - they are either too easy or frustrating and you feel either overpowered or underpowered despite facing an opponent with a very similar deck and probably at a similar skill level. That means that 20% of the time you spend in the game isn't even remotely fun, quite contrary, it's annoying, it's like a job you hate. Let's say you play 100 games a season - 20 games, 6 minutes each -roughly 2 hours wasted entirely, 2 hours of frustration and making the best of a hopeless situation. And I'm not counting regular gaming stuff, these aren't regular losses, these aren't regular lucky wins. These are the extremes.
About the decks - this is the first time since Christmas Tree Paladin meta, that I feel that I can't play a deck a of my own in competitive ranks. And I'm used to playing bad decks to poor results, I used to run stuff like Gadgetzan Lock'n'Load Hunter. Now you can't do stuff like that.
Bonemare have ruined both Ranked and Arena btw.
Hearthpwn: Where the salt flows free.
Based on the thread title I was expecting an in depth analysis, reminiscent of scientific journals.
Instead we got an angry wall of text that contains the phrases "so stupid" and "never have been printed" in the very first sentence.
Oh well maybe next time.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide