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TaperAxe
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I love this card, and I'm gonna craft just for the memes because it will be so fun to pull it off BUT that doesn't mean I think the card is good. It is way too slow for the meta and the first like 3-4 seals are leaving warlock in a huge disadvantage. 5 mana 2/2, 3/3, 4/4. Not good enough to keep up against aggro decks. That said, Warlock does have a shit ton of spells to clear the board and DK will help with the health BUT there is another problem. 6 5 mana spells take 3 turns at least. If you decided to play Rin on turn 6 and start turn 7 then you can only afford one seal a turn till the 5th one. By the time you get this Azari guy the opponenet probably had >10 cards i his deck making it practically useless to play him.
Rip, I was really hoping this was a good card but I doubt it.
This is auto-include in Demonlock decks or Warlock Highlander Krulzakus. The goal isn't to summon Azari, it's to generate demonic tokens for Krul the Unshackled and Bloodreaver Gul'dan.
If the demons Rin generates use deathrattle for the seals instead of battlecry those demons also become eligible targets for N'zoth the Corruptor.
Add in Reno in Wild decks for maximum resiliency and you have the makings of an extremely fun deck.
What, the spells generate a minion just like portals and jade idols, the spell also generate the next seal. The minions does nothing besides being demons and a weak extra to the expensive spell. The minions are put on the board so kruul is useless.
So your argument is to mock me for using two different descriptions in what I call a proper argumentation for why rin isn't necessarily a bad card? Grow up, come up with an actual reason why I'm wrong and then we'll talk.
Jade Behemoth is not really a good comparison. The benefit of Behemoth is that it increases your Jade Counter. Besides that, a 2/2 and a 3/6 together are 5/8 stats which is an acceptable play for 6 mana. One single stat can already make a huge difference. Just take leper Gnome or knife juggler . Both only lost "only" 1 stat and are not played any more (and were staples with 1 attack more).
I don't think a 3/6 "do nothing for your board" is ever a good turn 6 Play if it doesn't provide you with some value or future tempo. This doesn't do anything of that sort. It is just bad tempo that gives you further Cards which are even worse tempo. The only matchup I think Rin is a playable Card is against fatigue warrior with double Dead Man's Hand (or other non-bursty fatigue decks).
You certainly make a point with Jade Behemoth not being a comparison, but what you call a 5/8 for 6 is wrong. That's because behemoth isn't a 5/8 for 6, it's a 3/6 and a 2/2 for 6. The difference here is that the latter is much weaker to AoE spells and will die to things such as Shadow Word: Pain or the like. The 2/2 generally doesn't make much of a difference, which I did mention before, it's the main chunk that is the 3/6 with taunt that does the work (given it's played on-curve on turn 6). Also, the bigger the statline, the less influence one or two points have. On a 2 drop, being a 3/2 or a 2/2 makes all the difference when trading into f.e. a Radiant Elemental. Being a 6 mana 3/6 or a 6 mana 4/7 doesn't make a difference when you're trading into a 5/6 for example.
Sure, a 3/6 with taunt for 6 mana is very bad mana-wise, and I suppose wording it as a "very strong" might have been a bit of a mistake on my part, but that doesn't take away the fact a 3/6 with taunt is still a pretty good alternative to simply casting Siphon Soul on maybe a 2/3 Prince Keleseth'ed Fire Fly. Additionally, we have the scenario that say keleseth was Shadowstepped once or twice and the minions exceed the 3 health value, an Abyssal Enforcer on turn 7 would generally clean up all of these minions that were forced to trade into Rin, the First Disciple and the 2/2 golem from say a Jade Behemoth would've probably hit the enemy face and then died to the AoE of abyssal anyway.
Edit: You also mention the seals as even worse tempo plays than rin himself, but remember that rin's deathrattle in no way affects your card draw or anything of the like. You're not forced to play the seals, they're a side-effect stuck on rin's 3/6 taunt body, you can still use your hero power and sling cards like you're used to. Against control you generally end up not spending a big chunk of mana on several turns and investing this into seals can be good, while against aggro you simply use rin as a taunt alternative to Siphon Soul to improve your chances of winning ever-so-slightly.
So your argument is to mock me for using two different descriptions in what I call a proper argumentation for why rin isn't necessarily a bad card? Grow up, come up with an actual reason why I'm wrong and then we'll talk.
WHAT-THE-F...K??? Calm down dude, it was never my intention to mock you, what the hell??? Jesus Christ, I'm really tired of over sensitive people like you, it's impossible to have a proper conversation with your kind.
So your argument is to mock me for using two different descriptions in what I call a proper argumentation for why rin isn't necessarily a bad card? Grow up, come up with an actual reason why I'm wrong and then we'll talk.
Jade Behemoth is not really a good comparison. The benefit of Behemoth is that it increases your Jade Counter. Besides that, a 2/2 and a 3/6 together are 5/8 stats which is an acceptable play for 6 mana. One single stat can already make a huge difference. Just take leper Gnome or knife juggler . Both only lost "only" 1 stat and are not played any more (and were staples with 1 attack more).
I don't think a 3/6 "do nothing for your board" is ever a good turn 6 Play if it doesn't provide you with some value or future tempo. This doesn't do anything of that sort. It is just bad tempo that gives you further Cards which are even worse tempo. The only matchup I think Rin is a playable Card is against fatigue warrior with double Dead Man's Hand (or other non-bursty fatigue decks).
You certainly make a point with Jade Behemoth not being a comparison, but what you call a 5/8 for 6 is wrong. That's because behemoth isn't a 5/8 for 6, it's a 3/6 and a 2/2 for 6. The difference here is that the latter is much weaker to AoE spells and will die to things such as Shadow Word: Pain or the like. The 2/2 generally doesn't make much of a difference, which I did mention before, it's the main chunk that is the 3/6 with taunt that does the work (given it's played on-curve on turn 6).
Sure, a 3/6 with taunt for 6 mana is very bad mana-wise, and I suppose wording it as a "very strong" might have been a bit of a mistake on my part, but that doesn't take away the fact a 3/6 with taunt is still a pretty good alternative to simply casting Siphon Soul on maybe a 2/3 Prince Keleseth'ed Fire Fly. Additionally, we have the scenario that say keleseth was Shadowstepped once or twice and the minions exceed the 3 health value, an Abyssal Enforcer on turn 7 would generally clean up all of these minions that were forced to trade into Rin, the First Disciple and the 2/2 golem from say a Jade Behemoth would've probably hit the enemy face and then died to the AoE of abyssal anyway.
I put the stats together for the sake of simplicity. However, let the 2/2 be weak to AoE, the token is still generated from one single Card. You get additional stats and these are valuable. One single Point of life or attack can make the difference between playable Cards and non-playable cards (believe it or not). Throwing an AoE on Jade Behemoth and a 2/2 is like casting the same AoE on a single 3/6. Besides the fact that sometimes the 2/2 is a 4/4 or a 5/5 and then my 6 drop trades for your 7 drop. You can't do that with Rin.
A 3/6 taunt is not good enough to be played for 5 mana (see Fen Creeper ). Just because there are Scenarios in which a 3/6 for 6 mana is better than wasting a Siphon Soul on a 2/3 doesn't make it a decent Play. Instead, you could also play Tar Creeper and tap for a Card (or better the other way around). That are nearly the same stats for defence plus Card Advantage. But I admit that playing a 3/6 for 6 mana is not an autoloss. It has at least the value of a 5 drop taunt (though a bad one).
Edit @Edit: Okay, I accept the seals as some sort of value. However, every seal up to the third one is a huge setback in tempo again (worse than Rin himself). The 4th seal is just about good enough and the 6th is an okay tempo Play. You will have to Play a really bad minion 3 times before you can Play a minion that is somehow acceptable for its cost. However, there are way better 6-drop taunts than Rin (if it is a taunt you want to have).
Seems like a much less efficient version of Jades. I don't see how taking up most of your mana on five turns playing vanilla minions is going to keep you alive long enough to get to the payoff. Maybe the format slows down enough that this is viable, but just from a numbers perspective it seems incredibly unlikely. Even if you get to destroy your opponent's deck it's no lock that you win the game. They could still defeat you if they control the board and have enough gas in hand to finish you off.
I honestly don't see a world where this even goes off in an actual game the more I think about it.
Assuming you play it on curve, you've both drawn 6 cards already, so roughly 20 cards left each. Then it has to die, another turn or 2...18....then you have to spend 5 more turns playing objectively bad turns 13 left, then you could possibly play it with 12ish cards left you your opponent on turn 13-14 at the soonest.
I don't know what game the rest of you are playing, but on turn 8-14 people are making exceptionally strong tempo plays (I mean are you playing a 2/2 into a lich king or are you siphon souling it?), have already won the game, or have likely conceded. I don't see a hearthstone world where you have the luxury of playing playing a 5 mana 2/2, 3/3, 4/4/ 5/5 or 6/6 period during these turns.
You're going to take 5 dmg to bloodbloom out a 2/2?
The more i think about it, the more i realize, that there was a time when control warriors were the second most played deck in the game. at some point they ran only interaction, and no proactive minions (except elise).
If such a meta ever happens to occur again, maybe Rin's opportunity cost is low enough to pick up free wins against those kind of decks.
However, i dont see that happen in near future as the currently used winconditions are so strong that outlasting them simply does not work anymore. maybe rin will have here time to shine somewhere down the line though.
Yes. This is what I've been trying to tell people.
The "remove everything" deck, while not good on ladder, is extremely popular in tournament lineups as a counter pick. This is gas in that type of warlock build.
The thing about this card is that Rin herself isn't unplayable. 6 mana for a 3/6 taunt is decent, whatever. You aren't going to lose the game for playing that.
But people keep saying "OK, next turn you play the first seal, then next turn you play the second seal, then..."
No. You would immediately lose the game due to massive tempo loss if you do that. Instead, she sets you up for a longer control game. You play the seals as they become available to play, over a multitude of turns.
Against an aggro deck you will likely play Rin for the taunt, but you will NEVER play the first seal. Unless you're already winning...
I believe this card will definitely be played in Control warlock and will sometimes do "the big thing". The seals are always playable when the common "draw go" happens in a control game. The taunt is always useful in an aggro game. This card should be ranked Playable.
you guys keep judging this card by itself "Oh a 3/6 for 6 taunt is bad." "the seals are bad tempo plays" "it takes too many turns"
This will be put into a DECK where the time to play the 'low-tempo' cards will come naturally or they just won't be played. (depending on what the deck is facing) The deck will be a control/fatigue deck with lots of the control cards like Dreadlord and Defile and Golakka Crawler if Pirates are still trouble.
This will be a keleseth-type win condition card where if you draw it in time, it makes the odds of winning much higher, but the deck itself can win without the card.
That's 3 cards which we can use life for instead of mana, but it does push the Warlock WAAAAY to low on life to do so. I think the deck may actually need more healing.
That's 3 cards which we can use life for instead of mana, but it does push the Warlock WAAAAY to low on life to do so. I think the deck may actually need more healing.
I think overall, yeah, this is what a Rin control deck will look like. Probably want Lich King instead of Arfus, among a few other changes, but generally this should be the idea.
It just seems waaaaaayyyy too slow.
Main thing is, you're not always going to get the whole thing off, but the effect is still valuable even if you don't necessarily finish it. Getting a 3/6 taunt against any type of aggro in a control deck that just wants to stall until you can make big plays doesn't mind playing an understated taunt necessarily, especially if it lets you scale up to something which will just end almost any control match up. A 2/2 for 5 is actually better than some of the plays control warlock makes now.
I think it's really similar to the Paladin Death Knight which maybe doesn't bode well for it, but it's a little more versatile because the initial effect is so much cheaper.
Even the threat of 'if you don't apply enough pressure to me, I'll just cycle my seals and destroy your deck' can force certain slower decks like Quest mage to make weird plays just to try and rush.
The more i think about it, the more i realize, that there was a time when control warriors were the second most played deck in the game. at some point they ran only interaction, and no proactive minions (except elise).
If such a meta ever happens to occur again, maybe Rin's opportunity cost is low enough to pick up free wins against those kind of decks.
However, i dont see that happen in near future as the currently used winconditions are so strong that outlasting them simply does not work anymore. maybe rin will have here time to shine somewhere down the line though.
Just play Jaraxxus. He isn't going anywhere (except maybe HoF at some point). Warlock has always stomped all over CW and Control Priest. No need to make a favorable matchup even more favorable.
This card is garbage. PERIOD. Talk about it as much as you want but this card insulting and absurd. Useless. I'm going to dust it as soon as I get it in a pack.
Good analysis. I like the depth of discussion your post contained.
Here's another time so you have 0 excuses not to read it smart mouth :)
Thank you, much appreciated :D Let me dig a little deeper.
So, you're telling me that to play a 10 mana 10/10 I have to play: not 1 but 5 cards which individually are pretty bad (to say the least) and that to get that first 5 mana card I still have to play a 6 mana 3/6 with taunt that can be easily silenced and therefore you get nothing. so right now a 6 mana 3/6 hm pretty bad.(because it's silenced and does nothing)
Not to talk about counterspells once you have "earned" the first seal (which mind you, your opponent will be saving until you play 3-4 of them)
Also, if you manage to play the 6 cards how late in the game would that be? probably your opponent and you are going to be about to finish your deck and starting to fatigue in less that 5 turns so the 10 mana 10/10 destroy you opponent's deck will become burn 1 to 5 of your opponent's cards.
It's a card aimed to get new players to play this game who know nothing about how the game works: wow a 10 mana 10/10 that destroys your opponent's deck! AMAZEBALLS!
And yeah let's not think about the useless 5 mana summon a 2/2 demon and add yet another card to your hand.
Thing is: if you tell me play that 3/6 taunt get a seal and after that by doing whatever blizzard wants you to do it gets upgraded (be it discard 3 cards and upgrade it, deal yourself X damage bla bla bla) I'd see something at least more fun. But this thing of 5 mana summon garbage minions just to get more and more 5 cards to get a 10 mana it's pointless and unplayable in the real world (ladder and tournaments)
Sure if you wanna have fun with your friends go and play a deck based on this card but otherwise. Another card turned to dust. I'm sorry if I got boring at some point or if I made any mistakes. It's early in the morning haha
Thank you!
I agree, in a vacuum, it's a bad card. Everything part of Rin is overcosted, and it's almost a certainty that Azari's effect never matters. I also agree that it's not playable on ladder.
Where I disagree is in tournament line-ups. We have seen the removal warlock be a 100% viable deck. But, we've also seen that some builds (ones that don't include Twilight or Giant) are pretty threat light. This card could have a place there. Is it better than Elise or Lich King in that type of deck? Probably not. But there are interesting synergies with Medivh and Bloodreaver that I think are at least worth exploring.
That's 3 cards which we can use life for instead of mana, but it does push the Warlock WAAAAY to low on life to do so. I think the deck may actually need more healing.
MEDIVH! Seriously, you're playing multiple 5, 6, and 8 cost spells.
The seals are always playable when the common "draw go" happens in a control game. The taunt is always useful in an aggro game. This card should be ranked Playable.
"Draw go" doesn't really happen with Warlock though. You can't afford to build a deck that's too reactive, because then you start to burn cards or skip your Life Taps. But if it does become common even then Rin takes a backseat to Jaraxxus. I can't picture a scenario where I'd wanna play Rin over Jaraxxus and I can't picture a meta where I'd want both. I'd also prefer Jaraxxus against aggro. There are redundant taunt options but almost no healing in Warlock.
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I love this card, and I'm gonna craft just for the memes because it will be so fun to pull it off BUT that doesn't mean I think the card is good. It is way too slow for the meta and the first like 3-4 seals are leaving warlock in a huge disadvantage. 5 mana 2/2, 3/3, 4/4. Not good enough to keep up against aggro decks. That said, Warlock does have a shit ton of spells to clear the board and DK will help with the health BUT there is another problem. 6 5 mana spells take 3 turns at least. If you decided to play Rin on turn 6 and start turn 7 then you can only afford one seal a turn till the 5th one. By the time you get this Azari guy the opponenet probably had >10 cards i his deck making it practically useless to play him.
Rip, I was really hoping this was a good card but I doubt it.
You certainly make a point with Jade Behemoth not being a comparison, but what you call a 5/8 for 6 is wrong. That's because behemoth isn't a 5/8 for 6, it's a 3/6 and a 2/2 for 6. The difference here is that the latter is much weaker to AoE spells and will die to things such as Shadow Word: Pain or the like. The 2/2 generally doesn't make much of a difference, which I did mention before, it's the main chunk that is the 3/6 with taunt that does the work (given it's played on-curve on turn 6). Also, the bigger the statline, the less influence one or two points have. On a 2 drop, being a 3/2 or a 2/2 makes all the difference when trading into f.e. a Radiant Elemental. Being a 6 mana 3/6 or a 6 mana 4/7 doesn't make a difference when you're trading into a 5/6 for example.
Sure, a 3/6 with taunt for 6 mana is very bad mana-wise, and I suppose wording it as a "very strong" might have been a bit of a mistake on my part, but that doesn't take away the fact a 3/6 with taunt is still a pretty good alternative to simply casting Siphon Soul on maybe a 2/3 Prince Keleseth'ed Fire Fly. Additionally, we have the scenario that say keleseth was Shadowstepped once or twice and the minions exceed the 3 health value, an Abyssal Enforcer on turn 7 would generally clean up all of these minions that were forced to trade into Rin, the First Disciple and the 2/2 golem from say a Jade Behemoth would've probably hit the enemy face and then died to the AoE of abyssal anyway.
Edit: You also mention the seals as even worse tempo plays than rin himself, but remember that rin's deathrattle in no way affects your card draw or anything of the like. You're not forced to play the seals, they're a side-effect stuck on rin's 3/6 taunt body, you can still use your hero power and sling cards like you're used to. Against control you generally end up not spending a big chunk of mana on several turns and investing this into seals can be good, while against aggro you simply use rin as a taunt alternative to Siphon Soul to improve your chances of winning ever-so-slightly.
That's Incredible!
I'm looking forward to the neutral legendary reveal: "Battlecry: Fill your opponent's hand with copies of Millhouse Manastorm".
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Seems like a much less efficient version of Jades. I don't see how taking up most of your mana on five turns playing vanilla minions is going to keep you alive long enough to get to the payoff. Maybe the format slows down enough that this is viable, but just from a numbers perspective it seems incredibly unlikely. Even if you get to destroy your opponent's deck it's no lock that you win the game. They could still defeat you if they control the board and have enough gas in hand to finish you off.
I honestly don't see a world where this even goes off in an actual game the more I think about it.
Assuming you play it on curve, you've both drawn 6 cards already, so roughly 20 cards left each. Then it has to die, another turn or 2...18....then you have to spend 5 more turns playing objectively bad turns 13 left, then you could possibly play it with 12ish cards left you your opponent on turn 13-14 at the soonest.
I don't know what game the rest of you are playing, but on turn 8-14 people are making exceptionally strong tempo plays (I mean are you playing a 2/2 into a lich king or are you siphon souling it?), have already won the game, or have likely conceded. I don't see a hearthstone world where you have the luxury of playing playing a 5 mana 2/2, 3/3, 4/4/ 5/5 or 6/6 period during these turns.
You're going to take 5 dmg to bloodbloom out a 2/2?
The thing about this card is that Rin herself isn't unplayable. 6 mana for a 3/6 taunt is decent, whatever. You aren't going to lose the game for playing that.
But people keep saying "OK, next turn you play the first seal, then next turn you play the second seal, then..."
No. You would immediately lose the game due to massive tempo loss if you do that. Instead, she sets you up for a longer control game. You play the seals as they become available to play, over a multitude of turns.
Against an aggro deck you will likely play Rin for the taunt, but you will NEVER play the first seal. Unless you're already winning...
I believe this card will definitely be played in Control warlock and will sometimes do "the big thing". The seals are always playable when the common "draw go" happens in a control game. The taunt is always useful in an aggro game. This card should be ranked Playable.
you guys keep judging this card by itself "Oh a 3/6 for 6 taunt is bad." "the seals are bad tempo plays" "it takes too many turns"
This will be put into a DECK where the time to play the 'low-tempo' cards will come naturally or they just won't be played. (depending on what the deck is facing) The deck will be a control/fatigue deck with lots of the control cards like Dreadlord and Defile and Golakka Crawler if Pirates are still trouble.
This will be a keleseth-type win condition card where if you draw it in time, it makes the odds of winning much higher, but the deck itself can win without the card.
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It just seems waaaaaayyyy too slow.
Thinking it may work in something like:
That's 3 cards which we can use life for instead of mana, but it does push the Warlock WAAAAY to low on life to do so. I think the deck may actually need more healing.
This space intentionally left blank.
Main thing is, you're not always going to get the whole thing off, but the effect is still valuable even if you don't necessarily finish it. Getting a 3/6 taunt against any type of aggro in a control deck that just wants to stall until you can make big plays doesn't mind playing an understated taunt necessarily, especially if it lets you scale up to something which will just end almost any control match up. A 2/2 for 5 is actually better than some of the plays control warlock makes now.
I think it's really similar to the Paladin Death Knight which maybe doesn't bode well for it, but it's a little more versatile because the initial effect is so much cheaper.
Even the threat of 'if you don't apply enough pressure to me, I'll just cycle my seals and destroy your deck' can force certain slower decks like Quest mage to make weird plays just to try and rush.
Playable as fun card. No chance for it to see play in competitive ranked - it would be weird if it could with such strong effect.