Hearthpwn

Why in the name of the seven kingdoms is Millhouse Manastorm Tier 4, and not Tier 5? What "Niche" are you referring to?! :D

Quote from Kovachut >>

Quote from dps_kane >>

Quote from NightCrawl3r >>

I crafted Betrug for wild and I don't regret it.  He's extremely good in cubelock as you can pull him out with voidcaller or skull.  Sense demons is something you play in wild cubelock anyway and plot twist doesn't hurt it much.  Unlike in standard, he has a lot of powerful pulls: doomguards have charge instead of rush, voidcaller and voidlord have deathrattles.  Wild has a lot of other powerful deathrattles you can experiment with like Sylvanas.  You can also cube something instead of letting it die at the end of turn.  The deck took me to rank 5 today

I've seen him played in the darkest hour deck too.  I don't think darkest hour warlock is strictly superior to cubelock either.  If you don't highroll an early combo and miss pulling your neurbian unraveler, an AOE can wipe out all your threats.  Unlike big priest, you can't res your big dudes and once they're gone, they're gone.  A non-greedy cubelock also has much better consistency; the darkest hour deck is prone to a lot of bad hands.  Remember nagalock back in the day?  Naga is a one card combo but this new one is 3 cards to combo on 5 or 2 cards to combo later

 He does not really fit well into DH. I haven't seen much DH, but more and more pro wild players get convinced that DH is actually really strong. Consistency is the main problem. Less consistent than star aligner druid, but it can go off sooner.
I am confident we will find the deck in tier 1 in the next VS wild report. And the one after that it might be tier S.
One of the main reason it might be underperforming is that the deck is not yet well refined (like people putting betrug in it), but it will get there. if you have BB and DH in your hand at some point, match is probably over (because you have also so many 1/1 demon generator-cards, you do not really need to fish for them and you can sometimes play them on curve as well, possibly getting your combo one turn earlier if your opponent does not deal with the board).

I also believe now more and more that we will see a nerf. My guess is bloodbloom. Just a matter of time.

If you go to the following link

https://hsreplay.net/decks/aAHdZVNeOPqZFe9PUYrNSb/#gameType=RANKED_WILD

you will see that the current popular deck is not runnning Fel Lord Betrug and has almost 60% win-rate. I also think, that Bloodbloom is the main offender here, but nerfing it will affect Mecha'thun warlock far more than DH imho.

[edit] I find it kinda funny, that people dismissed Bloodbloom back in the days. Yeah, I know that warlock was non-existent in JtU due to the lack of good healing options (and, no, the Medivh combo wasn't good enough) and there was no need for mana cheat until TBP, but the spell bore a lot of potential and it just needed some time, before people could find the best use for it.

As for Betrug - I actually want to open him. He seems like a fun inclusion and I'm a fan of the Plot Twist archtype despite not being a strong one atm. Imho it will increase in popularity and in power, when warlock gets a mid-game AoE. One question though - how essential is Dollmaster Dorian in that deck. I don't know if I want to craft him just to include him there.

Please note that the winrate plummits at higher levels, and that deck is really not played in Legend. Unfortuntaely, Wild is not played enough to trust the data 100%.

I don't think the deck should be compared to SA druid, which had much more consistant ways of pulling off its combos.

Mispell in Nozari's Description.

I think there is a total valid point in comparing the decks - in the sense of making a comparison, not in "they are very similar" :)

so ... comparing SA druid with DH warlock and nagalock: all these are decks that feel/felt frustrating to lose against.
nagalock is probably the weakest of them.
SA druid was very powerful and could be defeated by either being extreme aggro or armoring up hard. SA druid was extremely consistent.
DH warlock: it has less protection against aggro than SA druid. it kinda needs to highroll against aggro, because having >6 hp left by turn 5/6 can be wishful thinking. it can go off faster and it's even more immune to disruption than SA druid was. Consistency is an issue, though, to be fair. You *need* DH and BB in hand by turn 5/6.

I can't tell how good it is from personal experience as i don't have the cards nor do i want to craft nerubian unravelers. Roffle says he quite underestimated the deck and it's quite strong. ConcernedMom hit #1 with it, Hijo hit #1 with it - it's definitely good. I mean, those are skilled players, but since it's a highroll deck, skill does not make a huge difference, right?

So once there is a very refined list, this might be a highroll deck with >50% winrate (dunno what the winrate is at legend) unless the meta shifts towards countering this (by being more aggressive).

.... sorry for all that, I actually think we should maybe keep the conversation out of this thread. If anyone is interested in continuing this, we should have a different thread. I think we are at a moment where this has nothing to do anymore with the crafting guide :D

Quote from SlydE >>

All  legendaries have been placed in the list!

Tier 1:
Archmage Vargoth* - Strong synergies in many decks, notably token druid.
Blastmaster Boom* - Staple in bomb warrior decks.
Keeper Stalladris* - Staple in token druid.

Tier 2:
Archivist Elysiana* - Strong card in slow warrior decks, playable in control decks.
Arch-Villain Rafaam* - Playable in strong zoolock decks but can be replaced. 
Chef Nomi* - Strong synergy with Myra's Unstable Element in tempo rogue but is replaceable.
Commander Rhyssa* - Staple in Secret and Secret Mech paladin.
Heistbaron Togwaggle* Strong synergy with EVIL Miscreant in tempo rogue but is replaceable.
Kalecgos* -Staple in Khadgar dragon mage.
Khadgar* - Buildaround for slower mage decks running Conjurer's Calling.
Oblivitron* - Staple in mechrattle hunter.
Scargil* - Staple in murloc shaman.

Tier 3:
Barista Lynchen* - Playable in Dragon paladin and Warrior, might find new uses in the future.
Catrina Muerte* - Staple in resurrect combo priest.
Jepetto Joybuzz* - Staple in Malygos spell hunter, combo potential.
Swampqueen Hagatha* - Interresting card playable in any shaman deck.
The Boom Reaver* - Staple in Big warrior.
Vereesa Windrunner* - Staple in Malygos secret hunter.

Tier 4:
Fel Lord Betrug* - Staple in weak Plot Twist warlocks, better synergies in Wild.
Nozari* - Playabel in Dragon paladin but very low winrate.

Tier 5:
Lucentbark* - Staple in heal druid, very low winrate.
Madame Lazul* - Weak card tried in several priest decks.
Tak Nozwhisker* - Playable in Thief rogue, very low winrate.

Over all, the set is doing very well, helped underway by the rotation of 3 very powerful expansion and the HoF inclusions.

Feedback appreciated as always, updates will happen!

 I think tak nozwhsiker just found a new home in shuffle rogue. probably won't have a nuts winrate, but it's something to consider. also barista goes in this deck, too. 

I'm working on a version myself, so can give you some info when I've tested the card more if you like? 

PS: barista goes in some shaman decks as well, like the new shudderwok decks as they're battlecry focussed. she might climb up a tier or 2 soon I think. I got her last night and I must say, in the right set up she's great. especially in shuffle rogue as you can make copies of all your lackies on board to keep feeding the endless barrage of togwaggles. 

I think tak nozwhsiker just found a new home in shuffle rogue. probably won't have a nuts winrate, but it's something to consider. also barista goes in this deck, too. 

I'm working on a version myself, so can give you some info when I've tested the card more if you like? 

PS: barista goes in some shaman decks as well, like the new shudderwok decks as they're battlecry focussed. she might climb up a tier or 2 soon I think. I got her last night and I must say, in the right set up she's great. especially in shuffle rogue as you can make copies of all your lackies on board to keep feeding the endless barrage of togwaggles. 

What is the difference between shuffle rogue and Tess/Thief builds? People try the card with Pogo-Hoppers too, but I am not sure if that is what you mean.

I feel the problem with both of those card is that they are slightly too expensive so the best value combos are very slow, and they are just a bit difficult to set up with manacost reduction.

All kind of info about possible uses is most welcome!

Quote from tekkenpro >>

Why in the name of the seven kingdoms is Millhouse Manastorm Tier 4, and not Tier 5? What "Niche" are you referring to?! :D

It may have been a hold over from when paladin was using Call to Arms to pull him. I wouldn't play him for that but some people do and that's why he was tier 4.

As for now? No clue. I mean I can see uses for Lorewalker Cho but Millhouse is just plain bad.

I think at this point we have to move van cleef to tier 2, its been a long time since miracle rogue has been a tier one deck. I would put malygos waayyyyy above van cleef

Quote from psykechan >>

Quote from tekkenpro >>

Why in the name of the seven kingdoms is Millhouse Manastorm Tier 4, and not Tier 5? What "Niche" are you referring to?! :D

It may have been a hold over from when paladin was using Call to Arms to pull him. I wouldn't play him for that but some people do and that's why he was tier 4.

As for now? No clue. I mean I can see uses for Lorewalker Cho but Millhouse is just plain bad.

 at one point i ran that deck that aimed to pull out cho nat pagle and milhouse mana storm with call to arms, it was effective when it worked but it was mostly for the lolz, mana storm was by far the least helpful card in that deck and lost me games at turn 2

This list is amazing but if i had to re arrange the top tier it'd look like this.

Staples Wild & Standard:
Keeper Stalldaris                Dr. Boom Mad Genius       Leeroy Jenkins
Ragnoros                              The Zilliax                           Harrison Jones
Malygos                                 Loatheb                              Alexstraza
Vargoth                                 Barnes                                Bloodmage Thalnos

-i would recommend crafting these legends for a very versatile collection standard and wild

Quote from LaFlame3500 >>

I think at this point we have to move van cleef to tier 2, its been a long time since miracle rogue has been a tier one deck. I would put malygos waayyyyy above van cleef

This is actually wrong. Edwin VanCleef sees much more play than Malygos atm at a higher winrate. This was one of the major shakeups that happened with the rotation. Malygos lost a lot of support in both druid and priest, and the new Spell hunter decks are not nearly as powerful. If anything, the dragon is on his way to tier 3.

As for Millhouse Manastorm, he remains in tier 4 only because it felt so bad to promote him to tier 4 when someone found the Call to Arms synergy. He should be demoted again very soon...

Edit: Demoted...

Also, the "new" deck in wild this expansion seems to be Quest shaman. Some more promotion of murlocs are likely incoming!

Darkest Hour Warlock is also making an impact in the format but the legendaries in that archetype are mostly staples already.

Quote from SlydE >>

As for Millhouse Manastorm, he remains in tier 4 only because it felt so bad to promote him to tier 4 when someone found the Call to Arms synergy. He should be demoted again very soon...

Edit: Demoted...

 Alright. Poor guy :D

But what about that broken Piloted Reaper -> Millhouse Manastorm synergy?

But what about that broken Piloted Reaper -> Millhouse Manastorm synergy?

Lol!

Is Lucentbark really a tier 5 card? I've seen some pretty good heal druid decks. It doesn't seem useless.

Quote from DonyHP >>

Is Lucentbark really a tier 5 card? I've seen some pretty good heal druid decks. It doesn't seem useless.

 Hmm, I just checked and some of them almost crack 50% winrate. I'll promote him.

Quote from DonyHP >>

Is Lucentbark really a tier 5 card? I've seen some pretty good heal druid decks. It doesn't seem useless.

 yeah, I seen a deck today that seemed pretty good tbh. it's like a taunt/heal deck. I would like to play it. 

Quote from SlydE >>

I think tak nozwhsiker just found a new home in shuffle rogue. probably won't have a nuts winrate, but it's something to consider. also barista goes in this deck, too. 

I'm working on a version myself, so can give you some info when I've tested the card more if you like? 

PS: barista goes in some shaman decks as well, like the new shudderwok decks as they're battlecry focussed. she might climb up a tier or 2 soon I think. I got her last night and I must say, in the right set up she's great. especially in shuffle rogue as you can make copies of all your lackies on board to keep feeding the endless barrage of togwaggles. 

What is the difference between shuffle rogue and Tess/Thief builds? People try the card with Pogo-Hoppers too, but I am not sure if that is what you mean.

I feel the problem with both of those card is that they are slightly too expensive so the best value combos are very slow, and they are just a bit difficult to set up with manacost reduction.

All kind of info about possible uses is most welcome!

 shuffle rogue isn't a thief build. you basically want to keep making more togwaggles. the deck is still a meme, but it's very different to the tess decks. 

it plays sort of similar to pogo rogue. theres a guy made a video of it on youtube. I can send you the video via message if you'd like to see it? 

I built the deck based on the video and the ratio of some of the cards might be different. there,s no decklist for it anywhere though other than the one I built here. It wasn't my original idea though. like I say I can link you to the video as well. 

in fact I think the video is in the deck description. 

Quote from SlydE >>

Yes, Belrug seems to be doing better in Wild than in standard. However, he has very stiff competition for his spot from cards like Kruul, Sylvanas, Kelthu, N'Zoth, Rag or just more aoe, removal, healing or tech. He belongs in tier 4 there as it seems now.

About the naga decks, you had to draw your giants too, so calling it a 1-card combo is not accurate. Pulling minions from your deck is pretty different from playing them from hand.

@ I'm just saying Belrug's a bit better than T5, which is where you were contemplating to put him.  I don't think he's very good in DHlock either, but I've seen a surprising number of these warlocks with him on ladder so I mentioned it.  He's definitely my favorite card of the set and I can't just let you throw *all* my favorite cards into the dumpster :)

Quote from Kovachut >>

As for Betrug - I actually want to open him. He seems like a fun inclusion and I'm a fan of the Plot Twist archtype despite not being a strong one atm. Imho it will increase in popularity and in power, when warlock gets a mid-game AoE. One question though - how essential is Dollmaster Dorian in that deck? I don't know if I want to craft him just to include him in a single deck-list.

It depends on how all-in your deck is on the Belrug synergy.  Dollmaster is almost a better Belrug in standard so unless you're running Belrug for the rush minions board clear value, you'd want Dollmaster in your deck for sure.  He's less essential for something like a wild deathrattle deck but at the same time, I'd highly recommend including Dorian anyway for the fun factor.  Doing the combo is fun and he increases consistency