Hearthpwn

Hi, should Cloning Gallery be moved into Tier 1? Since after all it is a centrepiece of a highly competitive deck.

Quote from Chesh000 >>

Hi, should Cloning Gallery be moved into Tier 1? Since after all it is a centrepiece of a highly competitive deck.

It depends if it is regarded a Tier 1 deck, I believe it is not. Generally, centerpieces of tier 2 decks go to tier 2, and even more so for cards that are not very versatile like that one.

Due to Trump's Paladin deck, should Millhouse be moved to Tier 4?

Quote from LightBrain >>

Due to Trump's Paladin deck, should Millhouse be moved to Tier 4?

 It is probably still just a meme. People tried to play Millhouse before the CTA nerf when it was only 4 mana, butit wasn't too amazing even then.

Why Thekal & Shirvallah were in the tier 1? Exodia or Holy Wrath don't make it to tier 1 deck based on hsreplay.

Quote from monkeymajik86 >>

Why Thekal & Shirvallah were in the tier 1? Exodia or Holy Wrath don't make it to tier 1 deck based on hsreplay.

The decks have very nice play and winrates, and I think they are smart crafts as they won't rotate soon and have a lot of potential for future synergies.

Clone priest is also very strong now, the big question should be if Prophet Velen and Zerek's Cloning Gallery should be in tier 1.

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from monkeymajik86 >>

Why Thekal & Shirvallah were in the tier 1? Exodia or Holy Wrath don't make it to tier 1 deck based on hsreplay.

The decks have very nice play and winrates, and I think they are smart crafts as they won't rotate soon and have a lot of potential for future synergies.

Clone priest is also very strong now, the big question should be if Prophet Velen and Zerek's Cloning Gallery should be in tier 1.

 I'll take that as a compliment then shall I? :P

Quote from Chesh000 >>

 

 

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from monkeymajik86 >>

Why Thekal & Shirvallah were in the tier 1? Exodia or Holy Wrath don't make it to tier 1 deck based on hsreplay.

The decks have very nice play and winrates, and I think they are smart crafts as they won't rotate soon and have a lot of potential for future synergies.

Clone priest is also very strong now, the big question should be if Prophet Velen and Zerek's Cloning Gallery should be in tier 1.

 I'll take that as a compliment then shall I? :P

Yup, someone might have derped by placing gallery in tier 5 when it was released too, but at least it got promoted quickly as the decks were discovered and refined!

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from monkeymajik86 >>

Why Thekal & Shirvallah were in the tier 1? Exodia or Holy Wrath don't make it to tier 1 deck based on hsreplay.

The decks have very nice play and winrates, and I think they are smart crafts as they won't rotate soon and have a lot of potential for future synergies.

Clone priest is also very strong now, the big question should be if Prophet Velen and Zerek's Cloning Gallery should be in tier 1.

 Zerek's should be I think. In wild it is often played in Big Priest. And it has huge impact on the game.

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from Chesh000 >>

 

 

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from monkeymajik86 >>

Why Thekal & Shirvallah were in the tier 1? Exodia or Holy Wrath don't make it to tier 1 deck based on hsreplay.

The decks have very nice play and winrates, and I think they are smart crafts as they won't rotate soon and have a lot of potential for future synergies.

Clone priest is also very strong now, the big question should be if Prophet Velen and Zerek's Cloning Gallery should be in tier 1.

 I'll take that as a compliment then shall I? :P

Yup, someone might have derped by placing gallery in tier 5 when it was released too, but at least it got promoted quickly as the decks were discovered and refined!

 To be fair, most people thought that card was really bad. Being overcosted and what not. 

This tier list is misleading af, how is thekal a tier 1 legendary? No one plays him, he's effect is too slow and only good if played super early, not saying he's bad but for sure not tier 1.

Also no way cloning gallery and myra's are below such cards, they are both insane cards that make certain archetypes (very strong archetypes) viable, they should both be tier 1 and for sure rated higher that thekal. Who made this list, Grumble tier 2? It sees 0 play since the saronite nerf, what if someone crafts him thinking it's good, to then realize that it doesn't properly fit into any deck. Same with DK Garrosh and Thrall, when was the last you saw those cards played at all, they are just bad, definitely shouldn't be on a tier 2 list for legendaries to craft, this guide is extremely misleading and meme honestly. A lot of the cards are in the right spot but a ridiculous amounts of others are either too high up or just seem to be underestimated for whatever reason, you guys should really revise this tier list and fix it ASAP.

Jesus I just realized that Valeera and Malfurion are rated lower than fricking Thrall and Garrosh, seriously who made this list? Valeera is not seeing a ton of play now (the rare quest and maly sometimes) but it definitely sees way more play that Thrall or Garrosh and it's infinitely better if we just consider each of those 3 cards in a vacuum. Same with Malf, Druid is almost gone after the nerfs and not a single druid list is running it but again, on a vacuum it's miles better than Thrall and Garrosh and those 2 don't see any play at all and rarely have. Valeera should either be like low tier 2 (I know there's not such a rating but you could give a description like this is barely tier 2 cause of its power level but it doesn't have a lot of space in this meta) or leave it at tier 3 but fix the other ones. Malf should be tier 3 and even maybe 4 cause now it's extremely niche. Thrall should be tier 4 at most cause it can be mediocre in some situations but nothing more, probably even tier 5 that card saw little play on the KFT meta and even more fringe play last meta with tempo shudderwock, otherwise it's garbage and borderline unplayable, token and mid-range shaman are not real decks and the only other shaman deck (other than even) is aggro shaman and that deck doesn't run DK either. Finally Garrosh is just terrible, it saw play on DMH warrior cause there were literally no other good cards, it hasn't seen any play since and it's just a terrible card, specially when there's Dr.Boom (which isn't too crazy either).

Tier lists should be absolutely objective and this one doesn't seem like it, it can be very misleading to new and unexperienced players, like I know the mentioned cards are bad and see absolutely no play so I won't spend my dust on Thekal or Thrall even if you rank them so high (for what they actually achieve and the amount of play they see)  but new players don't know any better and they will trust this kind of guides. Also you can't put a card high up just cause it may be good in the future or something like that, what if it doesn't get better in the future? Even with cards that have crazy effects like Thekal you never know, it might still be too slow and not worth in the future, who knows. If you're gonna do stuff like that you should have an unraked tier that's like NOT WORTH TO CRAFT BUT SAFE TO KEEP IF YOU OPEN IT, in which you could put cards like Cairne, Black Knight, Deathwing, Floop's Gloop and other cards that you shouldn't be crafting but that you should keep if you ever open them cause they're ok/decent and have such powerful/unique effects that could possibly see play in the future but it's uncertain,

SERIOUSLY GUYS GO THROUGH THIS TIER LIST AGAIN AND FIX ALL THOSE CARDS THAT ARE POORLY RATED (and some others I didn't mention) CAUSE GETTING FUCKED AS A NEW PLAYER CAN RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU. We were all there and dust is as precious as life when you're starting, no need to wreck unexperienced players when we could be helping them.

Quote from Mackie264 >>

This tier list is misleading af, how is thekal a tier 1 legendary? No one plays him, he's effect is too slow and only good if played super early, not saying he's bad but for sure not tier 1.

Also no way cloning gallery and myra's are below such cards, they are both insane cards that make certain archetypes (very strong archetypes) viable, they should both be tier 1 and for sure rated higher that thekal. Who made this list, Grumble tier 2? It sees 0 play since the saronite nerf, what if someone crafts him thinking it's good, to then realize that it doesn't properly fit into any deck. Same with DK Garrosh and Thrall, when was the last you saw those cards played at all, they are just bad, definitely shouldn't be on a tier 2 list for legendaries to craft, this guide is extremely misleading and meme honestly. A lot of the cards are in the right spot but a ridiculous amounts of others are either too high up or just seem to be underestimated for whatever reason, you guys should really revise this tier list and fix it ASAP.

Jesus I just realized that Valeera and Malfurion are rated lower than fricking Thrall and Garrosh, seriously who made this list? Valeera is not seeing a ton of play now (the rare quest and maly sometimes) but it definitely sees way more play that Thrall or Garrosh and it's infinitely better if we just consider each of those 3 cards in a vacuum. Same with Malf, Druid is almost gone after the nerfs and not a single druid list is running it but again, on a vacuum it's miles better than Thrall and Garrosh and those 2 don't see any play at all and rarely have. Valeera should either be like low tier 2 (I know there's not such a rating but you could give a description like this is barely tier 2 cause of its power level but it doesn't have a lot of space in this meta) or leave it at tier 3 but fix the other ones. Malf should be tier 3 and even maybe 4 cause now it's extremely niche. Thrall should be tier 4 at most cause it can be mediocre in some situations but nothing more, probably even tier 5 that card saw little play on the KFT meta and even more fringe play last meta with tempo shudderwock, otherwise it's garbage and borderline unplayable, token and mid-range shaman are not real decks and the only other shaman deck (other than even) is aggro shaman and that deck doesn't run DK either. Finally Garrosh is just terrible, it saw play on DMH warrior cause there were literally no other good cards, it hasn't seen any play since and it's just a terrible card, specially when there's Dr.Boom (which isn't too crazy either).

Tier lists should be absolutely objective and this one doesn't seem like it, it can be very misleading to new and unexperienced players, like I know the mentioned cards are bad and see absolutely no play so I won't spend my dust on Thekal or Thrall even if you rank them so high (for what they actually achieve and the amount of play they see)  but new players don't know any better and they will trust this kind of guides. Also you can't put a card high up just cause it may be good in the future or something like that, what if it doesn't get better in the future? Even with cards that have crazy effects like Thekal you never know, it might still be too slow and not worth in the future, who knows. If you're gonna do stuff like that you should have an unraked tier that's like NOT WORTH TO CRAFT BUT SAFE TO KEEP IF YOU OPEN IT, in which you could put cards like Cairne, Black Knight, Deathwing, Floop's Gloop and other cards that you shouldn't be crafting but that you should keep if you ever open them cause they're ok/decent and have such powerful/unique effects that could possibly see play in the future but it's uncertain,

SERIOUSLY GUYS GO THROUGH THIS TIER LIST AGAIN AND FIX ALL THOSE CARDS THAT ARE POORLY RATED (and some others I didn't mention) CAUSE GETTING FUCKED AS A NEW PLAYER CAN RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU. We were all there and dust is as precious as life when you're starting, no need to wreck unexperienced players when we could be helping them.

 

 Everyone tries to give a contribute in a proactive way. Most of those who reply to this thread recognize the difficulties behind it, but also its benefits for everyone. From some points of view, it's kinda a subjective matter and it surely has its minimal flaws.

But your arrogance will not help anyone, so please try to tone down and be kind instead of being a fucking solon who thinks to know the game better than everyone else.

Cheers

Quote from Mackie264 >>

This tier list is misleading af, how is thekal a tier 1 legendary? No one plays him, he's effect is too slow and only good if played super early, not saying he's bad but for sure not tier 1.

Also no way cloning gallery and myra's are below such cards, they are both insane cards that make certain archetypes (very strong archetypes) viable, they should both be tier 1 and for sure rated higher that thekal. Who made this list, Grumble tier 2? It sees 0 play since the saronite nerf, what if someone crafts him thinking it's good, to then realize that it doesn't properly fit into any deck. Same with DK Garrosh and Thrall, when was the last you saw those cards played at all, they are just bad, definitely shouldn't be on a tier 2 list for legendaries to craft, this guide is extremely misleading and meme honestly. A lot of the cards are in the right spot but a ridiculous amounts of others are either too high up or just seem to be underestimated for whatever reason, you guys should really revise this tier list and fix it ASAP.

Jesus I just realized that Valeera and Malfurion are rated lower than fricking Thrall and Garrosh, seriously who made this list? Valeera is not seeing a ton of play now (the rare quest and maly sometimes) but it definitely sees way more play that Thrall or Garrosh and it's infinitely better if we just consider each of those 3 cards in a vacuum. Same with Malf, Druid is almost gone after the nerfs and not a single druid list is running it but again, on a vacuum it's miles better than Thrall and Garrosh and those 2 don't see any play at all and rarely have. Valeera should either be like low tier 2 (I know there's not such a rating but you could give a description like this is barely tier 2 cause of its power level but it doesn't have a lot of space in this meta) or leave it at tier 3 but fix the other ones. Malf should be tier 3 and even maybe 4 cause now it's extremely niche. Thrall should be tier 4 at most cause it can be mediocre in some situations but nothing more, probably even tier 5 that card saw little play on the KFT meta and even more fringe play last meta with tempo shudderwock, otherwise it's garbage and borderline unplayable, token and mid-range shaman are not real decks and the only other shaman deck (other than even) is aggro shaman and that deck doesn't run DK either. Finally Garrosh is just terrible, it saw play on DMH warrior cause there were literally no other good cards, it hasn't seen any play since and it's just a terrible card, specially when there's Dr.Boom (which isn't too crazy either).

Tier lists should be absolutely objective and this one doesn't seem like it, it can be very misleading to new and unexperienced players, like I know the mentioned cards are bad and see absolutely no play so I won't spend my dust on Thekal or Thrall even if you rank them so high (for what they actually achieve and the amount of play they see)  but new players don't know any better and they will trust this kind of guides. Also you can't put a card high up just cause it may be good in the future or something like that, what if it doesn't get better in the future? Even with cards that have crazy effects like Thekal you never know, it might still be too slow and not worth in the future, who knows. If you're gonna do stuff like that you should have an unraked tier that's like NOT WORTH TO CRAFT BUT SAFE TO KEEP IF YOU OPEN IT, in which you could put cards like Cairne, Black Knight, Deathwing, Floop's Gloop and other cards that you shouldn't be crafting but that you should keep if you ever open them cause they're ok/decent and have such powerful/unique effects that could possibly see play in the future but it's uncertain,

SERIOUSLY GUYS GO THROUGH THIS TIER LIST AGAIN AND FIX ALL THOSE CARDS THAT ARE POORLY RATED (and some others I didn't mention) CAUSE GETTING FUCKED AS A NEW PLAYER CAN RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU. We were all there and dust is as precious as life when you're starting, no need to wreck unexperienced players when we could be helping them.

You should not dismiss the whole list of every legendary because you disagree with 10 cards you think should be moved up or down a tier.

There is an open invitation for feedback. I will look into your suggestions and probably make some changes.

Also, if you see then in the game or not is a bad indicator for how strong a card is. A lot of legendaries see a lot of play, but have bad winrates. This list does not recommend them. The opposite is also the case!

Quote from Mackie264>>

As much as I think you could have done this in a much more polite way, a lot of the comments were actually spot on. The meta changes, and it there are often some "leftovers" with cards that were heavliy impacted by nerfs and expansions. These updates were made:

Prophet Velen Tier 2 to 1
Zerek's Cloning Gallery Tier 2 to 1
Thrall, Deathseer Tier 2 to 4
Grumble, Worldshaker Tier 2 to 4
High Priest Thekal Tier 1 to 2

Scourgelord Garrosh does surprisingly well, and will always be a strong card whenever odd paladin is a top deck.
Valeera the Hollow sees a lot of play, but has always had a low winrate, except for a brief moment in the heyday of Kingsbane rogue.
Malfurion the Pestilent is also still a very powerful card for druid, and is keeping the class from falling out of the game completely (albiet, it is close!)

The "safe keeps if you open them" cards are generally in tier 3, and it should be obvious if you open them. The Black Knight is played little, but has an ok winrate and is so much of a "tech" card it was put in tier 2. Tier 3 is obviously also an option.

 

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from Mackie264>>

As much as I think you could have done this in a much more polite way, a lot of the comments were actually spot on. The meta changes, and it there are often some "leftovers" with cards that were heavliy impacted by nerfs and expansions. These updates were made:

Prophet Velen Tier 2 to 1
Zerek's Cloning Gallery Tier 2 to 1
Thrall, Deathseer Tier 2 to 4
Grumble, Worldshaker Tier 2 to 4
High Priest Thekal Tier 1 to 2

Scourgelord Garrosh does surprisingly well, and will always be a strong card whenever odd paladin is a top deck.
Valeera the Hollow sees a lot of play, but has always had a low winrate, except for a brief moment in the heyday of Kingsbane rogue.
Malfurion the Pestilent is also still a very powerful card for druid, and is keeping the class from falling out of the game completely (albiet, it is close!)

The "safe keeps if you open them" cards are generally in tier 3, and it should be obvious if you open them. The Black Knight is played little, but has an ok winrate and is so much of a "tech" card it was put in tier 2. Tier 3 is obviously also an option.

 

 Ok first of all sorry if my approach seemed a bit aggresive, I was just having a bad day so my apologies to you and any other mod or forum member that felt attacked or something.

Regarding to the changes made I agree completely, great job.

Finally regarding Garrosh, you are actually proving my point, it's a bad card, even when odd paladin is such a good deck this card barely sees play, I haven't faced a single Warrior DK this entire year, not an exaggeration. I think cards in this kind of tier list again should be more objective. What I mean is for example a cards like Prophet Velen has never been actually good enough to see play on its own but it has been an absolute staple on some of the most powerful decks in HS history (Raza and Gallery Priest) and you realistically couldn't (Can't in gallery's case) play those decks without such card, but as you said this tier list is supposed to be updated based on the meta right? So Velen is tier 1 even if on its own it isn't good enough to be considered that good. On the other hand a card like The Lich King is strong enough to be in such rating regardless on the meta right? But what if there are no good decks for him? Should I craft a card that's good but realistically sees no play? Or should I craft a card that maybe isn't that great on a 1v1 basis but it's necessary for one of the best decks in the game currently? What I'm trying to get to is that this rating system should be based on current play rate and how important is that card for an x deck vs. how good the said (And basically how core) on that deck.

I say so cause this list is obviously aimed for new/unexperienced players right? and they probably need more of the what cards are good now and will stay good for a while instead of what cards are good but see no play and some other cards that could maybe be good in the future. That's the reason I say a card like Dk Garrosh is just bad cause being 100% honest you're never gonna see him on a top tier deck and you probably would want to spend that 1600 dust on a bunch of other better legendaries.

Tier One are meta defining legendaries, and as a result is subject to a lot of movement regarding what deck is working at what time.

Tier Two are cards with high winrates but not essential to any deck in the meta, they're seen more as 'tech' thus the name.

Tier Three are cards that don't have a home, but are decent nonetheless. 

Tier Four are cards that have a home in typically low winrate decks. The fact that they have a home means they aren't trash.

Tier Five are cards with low winrates and no decks associated with them.

At least that's how I consider it. Perhaps you should take this list as a guideline, a pretty accurate one at that despite your complaints.

Bear in mind as well you attack Garrosh for it's low playrate, which you back up with personal anecdote, whereas Slyde is arguing from a winrate perspective. So much for objectivity.

On a final note, consider reading disclaimers:

'Disclaimer: A tier list like this can never please everyone; the meta game is dynamic. If you think a card is in the wrong tier, please explain and provide links to deck lists or other data to support your claim.'

Quote from Chesh000 >>

Tier One are meta defining legendaries, and as a result is subject to a lot of movement regarding what deck is working at what time.

Tier Two are cards with high winrates but not essential to any deck in the meta, they're seen more as 'tech' thus the name.

Tier Three are cards that don't have a home, but are decent nonetheless. 

Tier Four are cards that have a home in typically low winrate decks. The fact that they have a home means they aren't trash.

Tier Five are cards with low winrates and no decks associated with them.

At least that's how I consider it. Perhaps you should take this list as a guideline, a pretty accurate one at that despite your complaints.

Bear in mind as well you attack Garrosh for it's low playrate, which you back up with personal anecdote, whereas Slyde is arguing from a winrate perspective. So much for objectivity.

On a final note, consider reading disclaimers:

'Disclaimer: A tier list like this can never please everyone; the meta game is dynamic. If you think a card is in the wrong tier, please explain and provide links to deck lists or other data to support your claim.'

Yes, that is pretty much it.

Regarding Garrosh, there are some pretty good reasons to keep him in Tier 2, like this one:

https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/class-discussion/warrior/228777-neirea-breathing-some-new-life-into-warrior

At the very least, it is a card any experienced warrior player wants in their arsenal, and was placed in Tier 2 for that.

Because of Anyfin Can Happen Paladin, does Finja deserve a Tier 2 placement?

Quote from LightBrain >>

Because of Anyfin Can Happen Paladin, does Finja deserve a Tier 2 placement?

 Yes, the archetype does very well atm eventhough it is not played much.

Also added expected Wild tiers for the top 3 tiers of rotating sets. I hope this is at least on the path to what was called for. It should be the most relevant cards for crafting! I am not sure how many uses this list for crafting standard cards specifically for Wild.

i would like to craft a card. what do you recommend for me? probably i am undecided between Baku the Mooneater and Prophet Velen.

thanks for any reply