Hearthpwn

Why is Tirion in Tier 1? Gonk Tier 4 looks wrong too.

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Even after Oaken Summons rotates out, Loti will never see play.  I don't get why they printed this card or why everyone thinks it's good. 

 Come on...I won this card and will never use it but any low cost, versatile legendary will fall into this category. It's pretty clearly a Tier 2 / 3 card.

 Versatility doesn't make a card with bad options suddenly playable.  Look at all the other "choose one" Druid cards that saw little to no play:

• Druid of the Swarm (very fringe card sometimes included in early versions of token druid)
• Druid of the Saber
• Anodized Robo Cub
• Grove Tender
• Druid of the Scythe
• Druid of the Flame - IIRC, this ONLY saw play because Druid lacked better cards. 
• Mark of Nature
• Feral Rage - only saw play because Branching Paths didn't exist yet 
• Shellshifter
• Keeper of the Grove - b-b-b-b-but...the flexibility!!!1
• Mark of the Loa
• Druid of the Claw - this is a solid card and still sees no play.

And then there's the rest of the expensive cards.  I would be shocked if Loti were ever a key card even in a bottom tier deck. 

Quote from LightBrain >>

Grove Tender actually sees some play in Mill. Not that popular, but still playable. Druid of the Claw and of the Swarm are decent cards. There are better replacements for them most of the times, but they are good budget cards. Both Druid of the Swarm and of the Scythe saw play in Even Druid, although that definetely ain't a popular (or great) deck. Mark of the Loa, Anodized Robo Cub and Keeper of the Grove are trash cards. I don't find it fair putting them in the same category with Grove Tender and Druid of the Claw.

Also, Loti + Fandral is pretty insane.

 So are Dalaran Mage, Giant Wasp, Crypt Lord (with no bonus), and Huffer that can't go face, which is why Loti won't see play.  

Quote from LightBrain >>

What question are you answering? Are you saying Dalaran Mage, Giant Wasp, Crypt Lord and Huffer are pretty insane? Probably not....

 Answering the part I bolded. 

Mark of the Loa, Anodized Robo Cub and Keeper of the Grove are trash cards.

The four cards I listed are also garbage and don't see play in Druid (and never really will).  Cramming four bad cards into one doesn't make a card good. 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Even after Oaken Summons rotates out, Loti will never see play.  I don't get why they printed this card or why everyone thinks it's good. 

 Come on...I won this card and will never use it but any low cost, versatile legendary will fall into this category. It's pretty clearly a Tier 2 / 3 card.

 Versatility doesn't make a card with bad options suddenly playable.  Look at all the other "choose one" Druid cards that saw little to no play:

• Druid of the Swarm (very fringe card sometimes included in early versions of token druid)
• Druid of the Saber
• Anodized Robo Cub
• Grove Tender
• Druid of the Scythe
• Druid of the Flame - IIRC, this ONLY saw play because Druid lacked better cards. 
• Mark of Nature
• Feral Rage - only saw play because Branching Paths didn't exist yet 
• Shellshifter
• Keeper of the Grove - b-b-b-b-but...the flexibility!!!1
• Mark of the Loa
• Druid of the Claw - this is a solid card and still sees no play.

And then there's the rest of the expensive cards.  I would be shocked if Loti were ever a key card even in a bottom tier deck. 

Yes, there are bad ones, but also amazing ones like Wrath, Nourish, Keeper of the Grove (pre nerf), Jade Idol and obviously Branching Paths.

The big issue is that Wardruid Loti packs 4 options instead of the usual 2. With all respect, Kaladin, I think almost no Hearthstone players can have a qualified opinion of the impact of this at this point, especially long term. The winrates and the opinions I have came across from ingame use have pretty clarely suggest her as a tier 2 craft. Her playrate and pre-release impressions suggest tier 3 and lower. She is maybe the most difficult card to place in this expansion, but the general philosophy of this list is to give crafting advice AHEAD of the common perception. If Wardruid Loti plumits in winrate as her playrate goes up, she is demoted in no time!

 Edit: Demoted because of low playrate.

I'm sorry but the Rastakhan Tier List looks super biased. I mean, Griftah is rated higher than War Master Voone... really? When the first one is a trash meme and the other is a greedy card that simply hasn't found its deck yet.

Zul'jin is the best card of the set? Huh, only if you aren't overrun by Aggro on turn 7. And you have to delay Rexxar until at least turn 11. And it does basically nothing against greedy slower decks because a bunch of 3/3s is not something control decks are really scared of.

Da Undatakah is Tier 2? How so? Because of Taunt Druid? Just replace it with the second Carnivorous Cube, make sure you have two copies of Witching Hour, and your Taunt Druid will instantly become even better.

All in all, regarding other sets, somehow cards from this list's Tier 3 carry entire deck archetypes (Aluneth and Stargazer Luna) that wouldn't even work without them, while a lot of cards from Tiers 1 and 2 don't see any play now at all. Also, no Un'Goro cards in Tier 1? Not even Sunkeeper Tarim? Are the tiers based on any data? Winrates?

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

I'm sorry but the Rastakhan Tier List looks super biased. I mean, Griftah is rated higher than War Master Voone... really? When the first one is a trash meme and the other is a greedy card that simply hasn't found its deck yet.

Zul'jin is the best card of the set? Huh, only if you aren't overrun by Aggro on turn 7. And you have to delay Rexxar until at least turn 11. And it does basically nothing against greedy slower decks because a bunch of 3/3s is not something control decks are really scared of.

Da Undatakah is Tier 2? How so? Because of Taunt Druid? Just replace it with the second Carnivorous Cube, make sure you have two copies of Witching Hour, and your Taunt Druid will instantly become even better.

All in all, regarding other sets, somehow cards from this list's Tier 3 carry entire deck archetypes (Aluneth and Stargazer Luna) that wouldn't even work without them, while a lot of cards from Tiers 1 and 2 don't see any play now at all. Also, no Un'Goro cards in Tier 1? Not even Sunkeeper Tarim? Are the tiers based on any data? Winrates?

 Yes, winrates and playartes are important, but neutral flexible cards get a bonus for being smart crafts. Your perception seems to be influenced by older metagames. All of the cards you mention have beem demoted because of big drops in winrates caused by nerfs.

Hi, just a quick note. Loti is not in Boomsday. 

Quote from Chesh000 >>

Hi, just a quick note. Loti is not in Boomsday. 

 Fixed, TY, there has been a while since the last of those mispastes now, I almost missed them!

Quote from LightBrain >>

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

Zul'jin is the best card of the set? Huh, only if you aren't overrun by Aggro on turn 7. And you have to delay Rexxar until at least turn 11. And it does basically nothing against greedy slower decks because a bunch of 3/3s is not something control decks are really scared of.

 If you are being overrun by aggro when you are playing Secret Hunter or Spell Hunter, then you are doing it all wrong.

I guess I'm doing it exactly right because I have absolutely no problems overrunning Spell Hunters when I play Aggro much more often than not. But when I play a slow Warlock or Mage, I have absolutely no problems dealing with the 3/3s Zul'jin spawns. I also noticed that they tend to Flanking Strike their Huffers, which doesn't help them as well... 

Quote from LightBrain >>

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

 

Da Undatakah is Tier 2? How so? Because of Taunt Druid? Just replace it with the second Carnivorous Cube, make sure you have two copies of Witching Hour, and your Taunt Druid will instantly become even better.

Da Undatakah is a really good card in Taunt Druid, and to answer your argument, why not run both? Imagine a situation where your second Cube is at the bottom of your deck and both of the Witching Hours have been used. Wouldn't it be better if you just top decked Da Undatakah? Also, Da Undatakah is pretty good in Deathrattle Priest and Rogue.

 Why not run both? Because your Da Undatakah will fizzle when he copies the Deathrattle of the second Cude, and either won't spawn Taunt wall or won't shuffle itself. As for Deathrattle Priest and Rogue, aren't they Tier 3-4 at the moment? What's the purpose of Da Undatakah there? Is there any better outcome for it than drawing a couple of cards in Priest and spawning a 5/5 in Rogue?

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

I'm sorry but the Rastakhan Tier List looks super biased. I mean, Griftah is rated higher than War Master Voone... really? When the first one is a trash meme and the other is a greedy card that simply hasn't found its deck yet.

Zul'jin is the best card of the set? Huh, only if you aren't overrun by Aggro on turn 7. And you have to delay Rexxar until at least turn 11. And it does basically nothing against greedy slower decks because a bunch of 3/3s is not something control decks are really scared of.

Da Undatakah is Tier 2? How so? Because of Taunt Druid? Just replace it with the second Carnivorous Cube, make sure you have two copies of Witching Hour, and your Taunt Druid will instantly become even better.

All in all, regarding other sets, somehow cards from this list's Tier 3 carry entire deck archetypes (Aluneth and Stargazer Luna) that wouldn't even work without them, while a lot of cards from Tiers 1 and 2 don't see any play now at all. Also, no Un'Goro cards in Tier 1? Not even Sunkeeper Tarim? Are the tiers based on any data? Winrates?

 Yes, winrates and playartes are important, but neutral flexible cards get a bonus for being smart crafts. Your perception seems to be influenced by older metagames. All of the cards you mention have beem demoted because of big drops in winrates caused by nerfs.

 I'm sure Sunkeeper Tarim is still very much Tier 1 because Even Paladin is still good. As for Mage in general, she seems to be quite weak in Standard (poor Mana Wyrm...) but she is still pretty good in Wild and considering Aluneth completely rotates in a couple of months, I don't think it's fair to judge it solely based on Standard and put into Tier 3, especially considering that it was a Tier 1 legendary before. And I don't think it's fair to put Aluneth in the same tier as Toki, Time-Tinker and Stargazer Luna in the same tier as Luna's Pocket Galaxy.

I also don't think Kingsbane belongs in the same tier as Myra Rotspring. If the tiers are based only on the recent metagame, I guess Kingsbane should be at least Tier 2, if not Tier 1 for Rogue.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely appreciate all the effort and time that you obviously put into this article and I don't mean to discourage you or anything like that. But considering that such lists attract mostly people with a small collection and little dust, I don't think it's fair to push them into crafting legendaries that don't make the respective decks better or even make them worse. In that sense, I find some of the tiers misleading, sorry.

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

Quote from LightBrain >>

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

Zul'jin is the best card of the set? Huh, only if you aren't overrun by Aggro on turn 7. And you have to delay Rexxar until at least turn 11. And it does basically nothing against greedy slower decks because a bunch of 3/3s is not something control decks are really scared of.

 If you are being overrun by aggro when you are playing Secret Hunter or Spell Hunter, then you are doing it all wrong.

I guess I'm doing it exactly right because I have absolutely no problems overrunning Spell Hunters when I play Aggro much more often than not. But when I play a slow Warlock or Mage, I have absolutely no problems dealing with the 3/3s Zul'jin spawns. I also noticed that they tend to Flanking Strike their Huffers, which doesn't help them as well... 

Quote from LightBrain >>

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

 

Da Undatakah is Tier 2? How so? Because of Taunt Druid? Just replace it with the second Carnivorous Cube, make sure you have two copies of Witching Hour, and your Taunt Druid will instantly become even better.

Da Undatakah is a really good card in Taunt Druid, and to answer your argument, why not run both? Imagine a situation where your second Cube is at the bottom of your deck and both of the Witching Hours have been used. Wouldn't it be better if you just top decked Da Undatakah? Also, Da Undatakah is pretty good in Deathrattle Priest and Rogue.

 Why not run both? Because your Da Undatakah will fizzle when he copies the Deathrattle of the second Cude, and either won't spawn Taunt wall or won't shuffle itself. As for Deathrattle Priest and Rogue, aren't they Tier 3-4 at the moment? What's the purpose of Da Undatakah there? Is there any better outcome for it than drawing a couple of cards in Priest and spawning a 5/5 in Rogue?

Quote from SlydE >>

Quote from Ilfirinor >>

I'm sorry but the Rastakhan Tier List looks super biased. I mean, Griftah is rated higher than War Master Voone... really? When the first one is a trash meme and the other is a greedy card that simply hasn't found its deck yet.

Zul'jin is the best card of the set? Huh, only if you aren't overrun by Aggro on turn 7. And you have to delay Rexxar until at least turn 11. And it does basically nothing against greedy slower decks because a bunch of 3/3s is not something control decks are really scared of.

Da Undatakah is Tier 2? How so? Because of Taunt Druid? Just replace it with the second Carnivorous Cube, make sure you have two copies of Witching Hour, and your Taunt Druid will instantly become even better.

All in all, regarding other sets, somehow cards from this list's Tier 3 carry entire deck archetypes (Aluneth and Stargazer Luna) that wouldn't even work without them, while a lot of cards from Tiers 1 and 2 don't see any play now at all. Also, no Un'Goro cards in Tier 1? Not even Sunkeeper Tarim? Are the tiers based on any data? Winrates?

 Yes, winrates and playartes are important, but neutral flexible cards get a bonus for being smart crafts. Your perception seems to be influenced by older metagames. All of the cards you mention have beem demoted because of big drops in winrates caused by nerfs.

 I'm sure Sunkeeper Tarim is still very much Tier 1 because Even Paladin is still good. As for Mage in general, she seems to be quite weak in Standard (poor Mana Wyrm...) but she is still pretty good in Wild and considering Aluneth completely rotates in a couple of months, I don't think it's fair to judge it solely based on Standard and put into Tier 3, especially considering that it was a Tier 1 legendary before. And I don't think it's fair to put Aluneth in the same tier as Toki, Time-Tinker and Stargazer Luna in the same tier as Luna's Pocket Galaxy.

I also don't think Kingsbane belongs in the same tier as Myra Rotspring. If the tiers are based only on the recent metagame, I guess Kingsbane should be at least Tier 2, if not Tier 1 for Rogue.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely appreciate all the effort and time that you obviously put into this article and I don't mean to discourage you or anything like that. But considering that such lists attract mostly people with a small collection and little dust, I don't think it's fair to push them into crafting legendaries that don't make the respective decks better or even make them worse. In that sense, I find some of the tiers misleading, sorry.

 Thanks for digging into the list, that made a lot of sense. The focus has been more on getting the new cards right lately...

Updates:
Kingsbane Tier 3 to 2
Aluneth Tier 3 to 2
Luna's Pocket Galaxy Tier 3 to 4
Toki, Time-Tinker Tier 3 to 4
Stargazer Luna  Tier 3 to 2
Sunkeeper Tarim Tier 2 to 1

It can be debated if a strong class (hunter in this case) should be able to pull a lot of legendaries up to tier 1, but it should be clear which decks the cards fit in. I trust that readers who do not like to play hunter will not craft them even though they are placed in tier 1.

Also, note that even cards with strong winrates are put in tier 2 if they are not considered staples in their respective archetypes (Prince Liam atm.)

It might sound weird, but Griftah is actually destroying War Master Voone in terms of winrates. Griftah has decent stats and gives you a card but might be demoted to tier 5 as well at some point for the reason you mention.

Quote from LightBrain >>

What do you mean by saying "destroy"? By looking at HSReplay, Voone and Girftah have about the same winrate.

No, they don't if you use the Rank filters for deck winrate. Griftah sees little play at higher levels, though, so demoting him is not wrong. I just want to be a bit careful with putting new cards in trash tier... Some seem to like the card!

Quote from Wailor >>

Is Lakkari Sacrifice still Tier 5, with all the Discard support received in RR?

 It sees a lot more play, but the winrates are still low, unfortunately.

It might be promoted for the playrate alone if it stays high.

do you guys think lynessa is worth crafting for OTK paladin?

Quote from Agustin9000 >>

do you guys think lynessa is worth crafting for OTK paladin?

 No, there is too much silence around to make her useful.

Quote from Wailor >>

Is Lakkari Sacrifice still Tier 5, with all the Discard support received in RR?

 The quest itself isn't very good.. if discardlock is good it's probably without the quest

so what should i craft, also i dont want kangor i dont see him so good 

Quote from Agustin9000 >>

so what should i craft, also i dont want kangor i dont see him so good 

 

 Craft something that goes clear of nerfs or wait. Even paladin might surge (or not...)

Be prepared to tank Kingsbane, Shudderwock and any Druid Legendary.