Hearthpwn

Funny to see some discussion about Al'Akir.

I have him and last time i've seen him played regularly in a decent deck is like 2 years ago when shaman still was a decent class.
I didn't own him back then and when i would ask if i should craft him people still struggled to say yes.

Right now i truly struggle with this "there is a deck thats using him" reasoning to put a card in a higher tier.
Legendary Tier list should advise people what to do on expected future value, not just todays value and i regularly see this "he is used in this or that deck which is performing decent right now".
To me that just isn't good reasoning to move certain cards to a higher tier.

No clue what is going on with Rhok'delar right now either, haven't been playing him a lot, but after release he was even kicked from the spell hunter that was created because of him.
The card just wasn't good enough and i wonder if he currently is what is carrying the spell hunter.

But more surprisingly, the 2 new Paladin legendaries.
I've been wondering about them ever since release.
They have been top tier and i hardly ever see them played.
Worse even, i've seen them played right after release, but outside of brawl with random generation i can't say i've seen them used.
I just checked stats on hsreplay and i'm even more surprised....
What are they doing at the top of the tier list?
Glass Knight has a play and winrate that should probably make it Tier4 at best.
Liam might be tricky as his stats might look a lot like DK Rexxar who i always thought wasn't as terrible a card as his played winrate suggested, more because it often was a hail mary play that could turn a lost game into another win.
I however think Liam isn't nearly as good as DK Rexxar was back then.
With the nerfs odd Pally might become better, but before the nerfs it was even Pally that was clearly the better deck, hence you didn't really need to craft him to play Paladin.

This "Tier list" seems to have transformed into a "HYPE list".
Any card that is used in some pro streamer's fun deck ends up being bumped because that streamers deck won some games at high level.
Odds are in a month the card is back in the pits of oblivion and i think Al'Akir will be one of those.

Just ask yourself the question, did those top tier cards see play in recent tournaments?
I checked America's summer playoff and didn't see Liam once....
Would you really advice a new player on a budget to dump the little amount of dust he has into that card as a long term value?
I hope you won't....

TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.

Quote from Cptawesome >>

Al'Akir is a good choice imo. I don't play even shaman but I play an elemental shaman running hagatha. Because of all the random spells you will often have elemental might or rockbiter weapon and be able to combo for high burst; furthermore, as a standard legendary he is a very safe craft. 

Thrall, Deathseer needs to be dropped to T4 or T5 for standard. It sees no play, it may be a decent card but 1) its not an even card and 2) it is totally eclipsed by Hagatha the Witch. Seeing as Hagatha is going to be around for the next 2 years and there is currently no standard evolve support, I don't see reason to maintain its T3 status. I am on the verge of dusting it... and I really like evolve Shaman.

Quote from ronintje >>

Funny to see some discussion about Al'Akir.

I have him and last time i've seen him played regularly in a decent deck is like 2 years ago when shaman still was a decent class.
I didn't own him back then and when i would ask if i should craft him people still struggled to say yes.

Right now i truly struggle with this "there is a deck thats using him" reasoning to put a card in a higher tier.
Legendary Tier list should advise people what to do on expected future value, not just todays value and i regularly see this "he is used in this or that deck which is performing decent right now".
To me that just isn't good reasoning to move certain cards to a higher tier.

No clue what is going on with Rhok'delar right now either, haven't been playing him a lot, but after release he was even kicked from the spell hunter that was created because of him.
The card just wasn't good enough and i wonder if he currently is what is carrying the spell hunter.

But more surprisingly, the 2 new Paladin legendaries.
I've been wondering about them ever since release.
They have been top tier and i hardly ever see them played.
Worse even, i've seen them played right after release, but outside of brawl with random generation i can't say i've seen them used.
I just checked stats on hsreplay and i'm even more surprised....
What are they doing at the top of the tier list?
Glass Knight has a play and winrate that should probably make it Tier4 at best.
Liam might be tricky as his stats might look a lot like DK Rexxar who i always thought wasn't as terrible a card as his played winrate suggested, more because it often was a hail mary play that could turn a lost game into another win.
I however think Liam isn't nearly as good as DK Rexxar was back then.
With the nerfs odd Pally might become better, but before the nerfs it was even Pally that was clearly the better deck, hence you didn't really need to craft him to play Paladin.

This "Tier list" seems to have transformed into a "HYPE list".
Any card that is used in some pro streamer's fun deck ends up being bumped because that streamers deck won some games at high level.
Odds are in a month the card is back in the pits of oblivion and i think Al'Akir will be one of those.

Just ask yourself the question, did those top tier cards see play in recent tournaments?
I checked America's summer playoff and didn't see Liam once....
Would you really advice a new player on a budget to dump the little amount of dust he has into that card as a long term value?
I hope you won't....

 

TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from ronintje >>

TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.

Thank you for your feedback. The list has always been like that.

 

Quote from ronintje >>

 

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from ronintje >>

TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.

Thank you for your feedback. The list has always been like that.

 

I disagree there.

In the past we had a Tier list that was looking at cards on their future value.
That list was closed and then this list was created.
Thats what i'm referring to when i point out the Tier list used to be different.

This list might have always been a hype list, but when you merge any created thread about crafting legendaries for long time value into this one, you are merely fooling people into crafting hype cards rather then value.
Therefor i say, a tier list should be about value, not about hype.

People should be able to look at a list and decide if a legendary is worth crafting for that one deck they see and want to play.
Throwing those hype cards into top tier based on the fact they are played in that deck merely makes them think crafting it is a good choice even when the card has been trash tier for 2 years and might become trash again soon after decks have been perfected.

ps.
I'm baffled about Rhok'delar just being thrown into Tier 1 while DK Rexxar is still in Tier 2, despite every single Rhok'delar deck i've seen is also running DK Rexxar.
It merely shows how much of a joke this Tier list turned out to be nowadays....

 I opened a golden Open the Waygate ... Honestly not really in need of the dust and definitely not interested in Exodia (I despise the deck)... any thoughts on future viability or cool wild decks that use it? I wouldn't mind trading it for Awaken the Makers.

Quote from BootyLuong >>

 I opened a golden Open the Waygate ... Honestly not really in need of the dust and definitely not interested in Exodia (I despise the deck)... any thoughts on future viability or cool wild decks that use it? I wouldn't mind trading it for Awaken the Makers.

Quote from ronintje >>

Funny to see some discussion about Al'Akir.

I have him and last time i've seen him played regularly in a decent deck is like 2 years ago when shaman still was a decent class.
I didn't own him back then and when i would ask if i should craft him people still struggled to say yes.

Right now i truly struggle with this "there is a deck thats using him" reasoning to put a card in a higher tier.
Legendary Tier list should advise people what to do on expected future value, not just todays value and i regularly see this "he is used in this or that deck which is performing decent right now".
To me that just isn't good reasoning to move certain cards to a higher tier.

No clue what is going on with Rhok'delar right now either, haven't been playing him a lot, but after release he was even kicked from the spell hunter that was created because of him.
The card just wasn't good enough and i wonder if he currently is what is carrying the spell hunter.

But more surprisingly, the 2 new Paladin legendaries.
I've been wondering about them ever since release.
They have been top tier and i hardly ever see them played.
Worse even, i've seen them played right after release, but outside of brawl with random generation i can't say i've seen them used.
I just checked stats on hsreplay and i'm even more surprised....
What are they doing at the top of the tier list?
Glass Knight has a play and winrate that should probably make it Tier4 at best.
Liam might be tricky as his stats might look a lot like DK Rexxar who i always thought wasn't as terrible a card as his played winrate suggested, more because it often was a hail mary play that could turn a lost game into another win.
I however think Liam isn't nearly as good as DK Rexxar was back then.
With the nerfs odd Pally might become better, but before the nerfs it was even Pally that was clearly the better deck, hence you didn't really need to craft him to play Paladin.

This "Tier list" seems to have transformed into a "HYPE list".
Any card that is used in some pro streamer's fun deck ends up being bumped because that streamers deck won some games at high level.
Odds are in a month the card is back in the pits of oblivion and i think Al'Akir will be one of those.

Just ask yourself the question, did those top tier cards see play in recent tournaments?
I checked America's summer playoff and didn't see Liam once....
Would you really advice a new player on a budget to dump the little amount of dust he has into that card as a long term value?
I hope you won't....

 

TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.

Quote from Loki_The_Mischievous >>

The weapon IS trash. I've had it in my Spell deck from the very beginning, and not once has it won me the game. Every single win I had was due the rest of the deck.

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from ronintje >>

 

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from ronintje >>

TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.

Thank you for your feedback. The list has always been like that.

 

ps.
I'm baffled about Rhok'delar just being thrown into Tier 1 while DK Rexxar is still in Tier 2, despite every single Rhok'delar deck i've seen is also running DK Rexxar.
It merely shows how much of a joke this Tier list turned out to be nowadays....

About DK Rexxar, why do you mention it when I have written about it above? I am also not a fan of using the rhetoric trick to come with one example and dismiss a whole list of 70+ cards because of it. Rather go through each card you think is misplaced and why, just remember to back it up with winrates, playrates or decklists to support your opinion. Right now, feedback is much appreciated, as it is hard to tell if cards are tech or staples in several archetypes.

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

 

Quote from ronintje >>

TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.

 

Oh boy.  Where to start with this post. How exactly is the list supposed to incorporate 'expected future value'? Incorporating future value is a pretty ridiculous expectation given that value will always change when new cards and decks come out with each new expansion. 

 

Furthermore you're contradicting yourself - if your think the main criteria should be future value then Classic legendaries should always rank fairly highly - as they will always have at least some value by virtue of the fact that they never rotate out of standard. 

I did respond to what you wrote - the main part of my response was commenting on your expectation of future value.  It's not that it's not easy - it's actually impossible. You cannot predict the future value of legendaries as we don't know which cards will be released in future expansions.  It's an absurd condition for the Tier list that lacks common sense.  I do think you have a point regarding moving a card suddenly up two spots, perhaps it should be moved up one spot for a while and then if winrates and usage continue to climb the card gets moved up accordingly.

Sad as people who ask questions about improving their collection will still be directed here by mods who merge those threads in here and are fooled into crafting hype cards rather then the long term value cards they were asking about.

Please remember that the "hype cards" as you call them are also the best performing cards at the moment. If you are an experienced player (as most users of this site are) that is exactly what you are looking for. Neutral, classic and versatile cards are also often placed in higher than the winrates otherwise would suggest.

It is certainly an option to lock cards like Bloodmage Thalnos and Alexstrasza into tier 1, but for now, the list is a meta-report, and I trust the readers to understand that the Classics in tier 2 are smart crafts for longterm value, if that is what they are looking for. Remember that the future is hard to predict...

Quote from Cptawesome >>

 

Quote from ronintje >>

 

Quote from Cptawesome >>

I wouldn't call a card that has barely seen play during the last 2 years "a very safe craft".
That would make King Mukla and King Krush, very safe crafts to and i've regularly seen people advise them as safe dusts.

Lets put it this way, a card is either a safe craft or a safe dust.

That depends on your arguments. I believe any evergreen card that sees play now is a safe craft as you can use it now and also expect to use it in the future. Of course if you are running low on resources and miss some staple legendaries then you might want to reconsider. 

Al'Akir is strong when used in combination with buff spells for burst damage and right now you get loads of random spells including buffs when playing shaman. 

I disagree with your last point from a mathematical value point of view. A craft is 1600 dust and dusting gives 400. If the perceived value of a card lies in between these 2 numbers it is not a safe craft nor a safe dust. 

 

For the record, hunter DK is in tier 1 now. That was a lot of noise for a slight oversight that was fairly quickly corrected...

Are we chasing ghosts here? I expect users to read the short descriptions after the card, they are important, and should explain which cards have a narrow use and which can be fit into multiple decks successfully. If something is not onvious enough, or something important is missing, I am happy to make changes.

Quote from SlydE >>

For the record, hunter DK is in tier 1 now. That was a lot of noise for a slight oversight that was fairly quickly corrected...

• In face hunter it helps you continue fighting if you exhausted your other resources.
• In spell hunter it's a great way to get those minions that you didn't put in your deck.
• In control hunter it's a must have (Emeriss is just a win-more card).

Also (in reply to other posts calling Control Hunter a meme), it bugs me when people call Control Hunter a meme. A meme is a joke deck that's unplayable unless you get extremely good RNG or opponent is a friend who goes out of his way to help you setup the combo. Control Hunter has a low win rate but is completely playable and can hold its own against other strong control decks (priest, warlock even before the nerf, druid). The only reason Control Hunter is not viable is because of the agro meta and that there is no consistent way to heal yourself as a hunter yet. Here is my version of Control Hunter that I've been playing for about a month now with 45% win rate: https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1101043-control-hunter. In fact, the sudden rise of Spell Hunter should bd a great indicator of how seemingly poor deck can rise to the top with minor card changes to other classes.