Hearthpwn

I was wondering...is it a bad idea putting doomsayer in some mid-range lists? Think about it, in this meta there are 2 decks, tempo rogue and evolve shaman, that destroy some mid-range decks that rely on getting board and gaining tempo, like murloc paladin and mid-range hunter. So if let's say you play your one drop or coin 2 drop and it gets backstabbed or jade clawed, you are usually unable to come back from that because they will remove every thing you play while building their own board. So my question is, why not run doomsayer and play it on 2 to regain tempo loss. If you play tidecaller on 1 and it gets stabbed, then you play doomsayer and regain control, if you play stonehill on 3 it will likely stick for Kings or at least can protect your other murlocs. Same goes for Hunter, if you lose your alley cat on one you can play bearshark on an empty board for 3 and it will probably stick for houndmaster. Understandably though it's a terribe draw. But it actually also can really play to your favor that your opponent thinks you are a control deck and you'll catch them off guard

If you play a midrange deck: it's really only good on turn2, on the condition that you have a followup on turn3.

With that said, it's not even a good play on turn2 vs rogues since they usually just dagger or keleseth which they will play into the doomsayer anyways. You play it any later, chances are it's just dead from board or Vilespine.

Against shaman (as paladin) you really only lose to devolve, which you do playing a doomsayer as well.

If you play midrange decks, you want to be pro-active. That's why Prince Keleseth and hunter don't really work too well, because more often than not you do a turn 1 play and have nothing to follow up but a dead hero power. I would recommend having more pro active plays to challenge the board as mid-range, Doomsayer is kinda anti your own gameplan. 

There was a time when Doomsayer was used in Face hunter ( I think Chakki introduced that). I think it is a valid idea, but it needs some thought how to use it and how many of your own resources you are destroying with it.

The reason why I think could work is simply that as a minion based midrange deck you want the initiative. If doomsayer goes of, you get initiative. That is also the reason why Jade Druid uses it. It can almost guarantee that Doomsayer goes off, because of Spreading Plague (somehow similar as Frost Nova ). And then he slams down the big minions on an empty board.

On turn 2 or even 3, I think Doomsayer is a good play because it will give you initiative (most of the time, but the time when pirates with small time buccaneer killed a doomsayer on turn 2 are over). Depending on your deck, Doomsayer can also be good at later turns, You play Doomsayer and some minons and you opponent has to decide if he wants to kill your Doomsayer and leave you with your minions or go face and leave you with an empty board. But it depends on the deck you are playing, as well as the deck you are playing against. Against control, Doomsayer will likely be a dead card.

Quote from Horkinger >>

There was a time when Doomsayer was used in Face hunter ( I think Chakki introduced that). I think it is a valid idea, but it needs some thought how to use it and how many of your own resources you are destroying with it.

 

Tempo does not mean always playing a 1-drop on turn 1.  It means once you start putting on pressure, you don't want to stop - you want to snowball board advantage so your opponent is forced into removing your threats instead of developing their own.  That's why in Wild, a strategy with Pirate Warrior is to hold back your Pirates until you can burst open with Ship's Cannons and apply pressure the opponent is unable to come back from. 

If you're just automatically playing a 1-drop simply because you can without thinking of your turn 2 play, then yeah I expect you'll often find yourself in situations where you lose tempo.  Instead of thinking of putting in Doomsayer, why not think about adjusting your curve so you have a better shot at hitting a good 2-drop?  Or before you automatically play a 1-drop on turn 1, think about what you can follow up with on turn 2 and 3 first. 

Honestly, a deck with Doomsayer in it would by definition not be a tempo- or midrange deck anymore, but rather a control- or combo one. The difference would be how the deck plays vs control, where snowballing the board, and overwhelming around turn 7-10 would be the goal for any tempo or midrange deck. Doomsayer would be counterproductive to that strategy.

Quote from Bielkay >>

Quote from Horkinger >>

There was a time when Doomsayer was used in Face hunter ( I think Chakki introduced that). I think it is a valid idea, but it needs some thought how to use it and how many of your own resources you are destroying with it.

 

That version of hunter was not a board based deck though.

The idea behind it being good on turn2 in face aggro: leper gnome was a common turn1 which made an attack and then did damage through deathrattle. Then doomsayer prevented board development from the opponent, and you followed it up with charge minions (wolfrider, golem) that could potentially attack twice this way since the opponent couldn't trade them from their empty board. 

Alley Cat into Crackling Razormaw is simply a better line in a tempo deck than <do nothing> into Doomsayer.

Quote from Horkinger >>

Quote from Bielkay >>

Quote from Horkinger >>

There was a time when Doomsayer was used in Face hunter ( I think Chakki introduced that). I think it is a valid idea, but it needs some thought how to use it and how many of your own resources you are destroying with it.

That version of hunter was not a board based deck though.

The idea behind it being good on turn2 in face aggro: leper gnome was a common turn1 which made an attack and then did damage through deathrattle. Then doomsayer prevented board development from the opponent, and you followed it up with charge minions (wolfrider, golem) that could potentially attack twice this way since the opponent couldn't trade them from their empty board. 

 Exactly. And that is the same idea as always when doomsayer is put in a minion based deck: Get the initiative. It's clear that face hunter is not a board based deck, but it was relying on minions to get the damage in. Doomsayer itself didn't do damage (which was a disadvantage with that deck), but as you said he often let you attack with the minions you could play on the empty board twice (which outweighed the disadvantage). Or he just gave you the extra turn (if they had a board they mostly had to trade with doomsayer) to get the necessary damage to win. I liked that deck.

And that is something I can imagine still works. On turn 2 maybe 3, you get initiative because they can't kill Doomsayer. In later turns, they have to "waste" damage on Doomsayer and maybe cannot kill your board due to that. But yes, it depends on the deck you want to put him in.

Yes, it's horrible in those decks.

If you are making a mid-range list and you find yourself frequently needing doomsayer, then you should be rethinking your list, because  it is not a good mid-range list.

Doomsayer is one of "those" cards. And by "those" cards, I mean when you need it, you REALLY need it, and when you don't, its just dead weight. Having one in your deck might actually save you 1 time in 20 games, but it probably will hurt you in 3 or 4 out of 20, so personally, I would not run it. 

What in the world are you saying?? My whole point is that not all decks a equiped to regain control of the board which is why I specifically mentioned murloc paladin and mid-range hunter for doomsayer because those deck so heavily rely on going first and having a one drop in order to snowball. Obviously decks like tempo rogue and evolve shaman wouldn't need doomsayer to regain control because most of their cards remove while developing. You post got me upset because you are brainlessly hating. Just like some decks have to brainlessly drop the one drop.

Well sometimes you just don't have that and you lose. I guess good players know how to draw alley cat into crackling razormaw. I'm not that good of a player and I sometimes don't draw it so im wondering if domsayer would help in that situation.

Quote from JackScale >>

What in the world are you saying?? My whole point is that not all decks a equiped to regain control of the board which is why I specifically mentioned murloc paladin and mid-range hunter for doomsayer because those deck so heavily rely on going first and having a one drop in order to snowball. Obviously decks like tempo rogue and evolve shaman wouldn't need doomsayer to regain control because most of their cards remove while developing. You post got me upset because you are brainlessly hating. Just like some decks have to brainlessly drop the one drop.

i can see Doomsayer useful just for control or combo decks to save you early game. 

Okay, so let's take into an example you're playing Murloc Paladin. What do you want to do, curve out and stick the board while buffing with Megasaur and then use your later game threats like Tarim and Tirion to get you the one, that's your gameplan. Now there is absolutely no way you'd want to throw a Doomsayer into that mix, it's completely anti what you're trying to do. As mid-range, you want to be pro-active and Doomsayer is a reactive card most of the time, the only time it isn't is when you're trying to set up for empty board play, loading up something specific, it's a defensive tool and it will always be. Also, what about all those times you are going to draw Doomsayer later on in the game, if you run 1 copy there will be fewer occasions you'll have it on 2 which isn't even good anyway, whereas if you topdeck a murloc or Swashburgler or something instead, you can still be pro-active. 

Anyway, there's absolutely no way Doomsayer is viable in a midrange/aggro deck, it's not even run in every control deck. If you disagree with that and I'm wrong then you're probably going to make the next meta defining deck, so I'll point you in the direction of the deckbuilder and shoot me up with a potential list, give me a PM and I'll give you some positive feedback.