Hearthpwn

Hello there,

Just before the nerf came, I was wondering about Ultimate Infestation. This is some mathematics to understand how OP is this card, and still, it passed through the nerf...

So, this card has 4 effects : Draw, Damage, Armor up and Summon a minion. I compared with the card stats of other classes for each effect, in term of mana cost.

Draw :

Arcane Intellect : 3 Mana for 2 cards : 1.5 mana/card

Sprint : 7 Mana for 4 cards : 1.75 mana/card

Lay on Hands : 8 mana for 3 cards : (considering Holy Light stats*)  1.66 mana/card

(*Holy Light Restore 6 Health for 2 mana : 0.33 mana/HP ; x8 = 2.64 let say 3 mana for 8 HP, so 5 mana for 3 cards : 1.66 mana/card)

Mean : 1.63 mana/card

Damage :

Fireball : 4 Mana for 6 dmg : 0.66 mana/dmg

Pyroblast : 10 Mana for 10 dmg : 1 mana/dmg

Mean : 0.83 mana/dmg

Minion :

Judging by effectless cards like Chillwind Yeti (4/5 for 4) Worgen Greaser (6/3 for 4) Boulderfist Ogre (6/7 for 6) a minion cost 0.45 mana/stat (ATQ + HP)

So, for Ultimate Infestation, the 5/5 should cost between 4 and 5 mana

Armor :

Iron Hide gives 5 armor for 1 mana

The total cost for this card would be approximately :

1.75*5 cards draw + 0.83*5 dmg + 0.45*10 minion stats + 1 = 18.4 Mana ….

And this is without taking into account that the card can be played when you are still at 5 mana ( when you don’t play druid if it still exists), because of mana ramp… And this is combined in only ONE card, which should make it a bit weaker ... but no.

So what's wrong ? Why hasn't it been nerfed ?

Actually the Card has 4 effects. 5 armor which is priced at 1 mana ( Iron Hide ) but is not played (because 5 armor might be worth 1 mana, but is not worth a Card).

Why isn't every strong card in the game nerfed? Why aren't all subsequent cards that become strong through the nerfs then nerfed. If they nerfed everything the community wanted there'd be no cards left to play with besides Wisp. And even if we followed that formula, a 0 mana 1/1 would be incredibly strong at some point. Cards are allowed to be strong, 10 mana cards especially. 

Look at the power level of Deathwing Dragonlord. It doesn't see play but imagine if things were nerfed and it became top tier. The value of that card in a vacuum is way higher than UI. N'zoth too. Blizzard should go back and rebalance all sets pre Old Gods methinks, just very minor changes even 1 health.

Quote from moonsorrow999 >>

Why isn't every strong card in the game nerfed? Why aren't all subsequent cards that become strong through the nerfs then nerfed. If they nerfed everything the community wanted there'd be no cards left to play with besides Wisp. And even if we followed that formula, a 0 mana 1/1 would be incredibly strong at some point. Cards are allowed to be strong, 10 mana cards especially. 

 

Look at the power level of Deathwing Dragonlord. It doesn't see play but imagine if things were nerfed and it became top tier. The value of that card in a vacuum is way higher than UI. N'zoth too. Blizzard should go back and rebalance all sets pre Old Gods methinks, just very minor changes even 1 health.

Quote from Horkinger >>

Actually the Card has 4 effects. 5 armor which is priced at 1 mana ( Iron Hide ) but is not played (because 5 armor might be worth 1 mana, but is not worth a Card).

The answer is 19 

the thing about UI is that it is fair in every other class besides druid... thats because of ramp. if druid didnt have ramp, there would be no issue. The cards power isnt the problem, the problem is druid being able to get to 10 mana so quickly though wild growth, jade blossom, innervate and nourish. The card is fair because it is 10 mana, its a tempo swing. Think about deathwing... hes overstated and his effect is a big tempo swing late game. same with nzoth, the old yogg and other 10 mana cards. 

I dont agree with the fact that it should be a legendary spell because most of the time when i play jade druid (just grinding last 40 games till golden druid! yay), after i play the first one, i dont feel the need to play the second because i already have so many cards in hand and normally dont play more than 2-3 cards a turn. 

So although this fancy math tells us what the value of this card is, which i think is BS, it isnt that OP because you spend your entire turn doing it with a possible innervate + hero power or innervate+wrath. Spending your entire turn for all those effects makes it fair. 

Conclusion: This card is extremely powerful and has made druid very strong, but it isnt the problem. It is on the same power level as other cards. If anything, there has to be changes to druid ramp abilities. 

Quote from moonsorrow999 >>

Why isn't every strong card in the game nerfed? Why aren't all subsequent cards that become strong through the nerfs then nerfed. If they nerfed everything the community wanted there'd be no cards left to play with besides Wisp. And even if we followed that formula, a 0 mana 1/1 would be incredibly strong at some point. Cards are allowed to be strong, 10 mana cards especially. 

 

Look at the power level of Deathwing Dragonlord. It doesn't see play but imagine if things were nerfed and it became top tier. The value of that card in a vacuum is way higher than UI. N'zoth too. Blizzard should go back and rebalance all sets pre Old Gods methinks, just very minor changes even 1 health.

IMO 10 mana cards should be powerful to justify the usage ... I hope other classes will get such tools in next exp. Now most 9+ cost cards are not used that much because benefits are not that great (unless effect is strong like Yogg, N'Zoth, Deathwing ...)
For druid such versatile card isn't that great idea because of ramp ... hopefully Innervate will be nerfed and that should help (now decision between minion vs do-nothing-ramp will be harder).

Quote from voltanis13 >>

Quote from Majin_Cyanure >>

Quote from moonsorrow999 >>

Why isn't every strong card in the game nerfed? Why aren't all subsequent cards that become strong through the nerfs then nerfed. If they nerfed everything the community wanted there'd be no cards left to play with besides Wisp. And even if we followed that formula, a 0 mana 1/1 would be incredibly strong at some point. Cards are allowed to be strong, 10 mana cards especially. 

 

Look at the power level of Deathwing Dragonlord. It doesn't see play but imagine if things were nerfed and it became top tier. The value of that card in a vacuum is way higher than UI. N'zoth too. Blizzard should go back and rebalance all sets pre Old Gods methinks, just very minor changes even 1 health.

 Strong cards ? I'm not talking about strong card here, I'm talking about OP cards. I don't ask to nerf Tirion, Fandral, Shadow Anduin, Kazakus or whatever. These are strong cards, but not overpowered one. UI is just ridiculous.

Deathwing is way to slow you can't compare it. First, it can be silenced, Hexed, Sheeped, Aldored and just become a nice shit pile for 10 mana. And that needs you to already have board control or at least not be in danger to play it. Plus, for its effect to be strong you need to have some fat dragons in your hand. UI is generally played because druid ramped from the beginning of the game and used all his cards to reach 10 mana (and summon some Jade to still contest the board) while you're still at 5-6 and not really threatening.

Quote from phuture2k >>

I think you've overestimated some costs (Chillwind Yeti isn't played, Pyroblast is the worst damage/mana card because it is a finisher, Holy Light isn't played, etc.)

However, you also underestimated the value of combining effects in one card because it nets you card advantage and usually there's a premium to that.

 

Yes, I know about Pyroblast (originally it costed 8mana, and has been nerfed), but I wanted to compare to raw damage cards, without other effects... So in one hand we have deal 10 dmg for 10, and on the other deal 5 dmg, draw 5 card, gain 5 armor, summon a 5/5 ??? meh

 And I also know about combining effects, that's why I mentionned that it is for only ONE card, but it's hard quantify this...

 5 damage + 5/5 = firelands portal = 7 mana . 

Just do it like: 1.5 mana per card draw, 1 mana for 5 armor and 8 mana for the 5 damage and summon a 5/5 (Firelands Portal with a guaranteed good minion). So 7.5 + 1 + 8 = 16.5 mana

Your head might explode if I told you they never touched this card either Mysterious Challenger

I really don't understand why this OP, completely busted, insanely broken card don't be nerfed but Hex and Blade Flurry was.

UI is a strong card but what you are doing is like comparing apples to oranges. druid had innervate for 2 mana, and rogue has conterfeit coin. because they are different classes and need different things and work differently. Also your calculations are very inprecise because you do not take enough cards into consideration. if you compared lava burst and frostbolt with the dmg you might have had different results.

IMO, draw 5 cards costs 2* cards - 1 mana = 9 mana (AI = 3 for 2 cards, Nourish = 5 for 3 cards, Sprint = 7 for 4 cards)

Vanilla 5/5 = 4.5 mana (avarage between 4 mana 4/5 and 5 mana 5/6)

5 dmg, I would say 3.5 mana (shadow bolt 3 mana for 4 dmg and fireball 4 mana for 6 dmg)

And I agree 5 armor for 1 mana

But you haven't counted the cost for combination, for example u have a 5/5 minion card, + 5 armor card, deal 5 card, draw 5 card, u need 4 different cards, so compare to 1 UI you need to draw 3 more cards, so total is draw 8 cards = 15 mana

so total is 15 + 4.5 + 3.5 + 1  = 24 mana

EDIT: 19 if you don't count the costs for combination

It would be a fine card if they cut down the card draw.

10 mana = 5 armor + 5dmg + 5/5 minion (with taunt/poison/lifesteal... one stat of these)

This is a balanced card IMO

Quote from AivEr1 >>

this card should have been legendary spell

This thread again?  I swear this analysis has been repeated over and over.

It's well established that it's a clean combination of Shieldmaiden, Starfire, and Sprint.