ok so we have cabalist tome which costs 5 mana, then Devour mind which also costs 5 mana then nourish, which costs 5 mana. Then thistle ea costs 6. WTF. This is bothering me. Can we either change thistle tea to 5 mana or raise the other cards to 6. I just want to see consistency. All these cards add three cards to your hand and thistle tea costs six for what reason? It's not like it's more powerful than the other cards so why does it cost 6?
Second, why did you pick these cards into account? I mean they are a lot different, while cards like Sense Demons, Ice Fishing and Forge of Souls are much more similiar and yet the problem you have mentioned is in them.
Devour Mind also doesn't draw cards. It generates them by using your opponent's deck. The cost is not increased, because you are not only rolling the dices, but also gaining a bit of you opponent's deck, which is both good and bad. Bad, because you can get Frost Nova against Quest Mage. Good, because you know what is in your opponent's deck.
Nourish draws you three cards, albeit it's effect can be used to ramp. With the newest cringe card: Ultimate Infestation ramping has it's downsides less of a matter. That's because ramping uses cards, which you won't receive back, hence your hand is much smaller, making it possible to end up with the empty hand. Ultimate Infestation removes that risk by drawing you five cards and affecting the board immediatly. Don't forget that Nourish can be combined with Fandral Staghelm. The cost is not increased, because you use one card to draw three or ramp. Rolling the dices is also included, but it's limited to your own deck.
Thistle Tea draws you only one card, which is then copied two times. The cost is increased, exactly because you recive these copies. And remember: you draw a card that you have chosen to be in your deck. Rolling the dices is still here, but again it's limited to your own deck. Somebody, like you, may say "But additional copies of one card is not an excuse to increase the cost", to wich I would reply "Three Edwin VanCleefs".
Thistle tea is significantly worse than the other cards. And I said give earlier not draw. You're comparing the best case scenarios it's just like saying oh I stole your nzoth, tirion, and rag lightlord with devour mind or stealing a quest mages ice blocks. Or cabalists giving 3 meteors/ice blocks. You can still low roll with thistle tea like getting 3 backstabs or preps. Plus all of these cards listed before are linked to class identities (except nourish for the draw). For Druids class, drawing is far more valuable and better because of the class design and how ramp works. Mage has spell generation. Priest is steal. Rogue is getting duplicates. Devour mind and cabalists time on average will give more value than thistle tea. So again why is thistle tea the exception? I'm questioning the design perspective rather than complaining. It seems odd how all the add three cards cost five with thistle tea having a similar effect and still costing one more.
Yup, case in point Rogue has Preparation, so something like Thistle Tea has to be costed with that in mind from a design standpoint.
Second, why did you pick these cards into account? I mean they are a lot different, while cards like Sense Demons, Ice Fishing and Forge of Souls are much more similiar and yet the problem you have mentioned is in them.
I would slightly disagree but only because those cards you mention fetch two cards of a specific type while Thistle Tea can hit any card in your deck and make two copies of it.
Thistle Tea draws you only one card, which is then copied two times. The cost is increased, exactly because you recive these copies. And remember: you draw a card that you have chosen to be in your deck. Rolling the dices is still here, but again it's limited to your own deck. Somebody, like you, may say "But additional copies of one card is not an excuse to increase the cost", to wich I would reply "Three Edwin VanCleefs".
I would agree. There is some RNG, but cards you purposely include in your deck are bound to be better than random cards on average. My only complaint is that at 6 mana you couldn't play two on the same turn with Valeera the Hollow, but making such a huge pure value play without impacting the board is in most cases too high a price for Thistle Tea to see play anyway. When it is used it is mostly a budget finisher where you hope to duplicate something that can create a board swing or give you lethal.
Yup, case in point Rogue has Preparation, so something like Thistle Tea has to be costed with that in mind from a design standpoint.
Second, why did you pick these cards into account? I mean they are a lot different, while cards like Sense Demons, Ice Fishing and Forge of Souls are much more similiar and yet the problem you have mentioned is in them.
I would slightly disagree but only because those cards you mention fetch two cards of a specific type while Thistle Tea can hit any card in your deck and make two copies of it.
Thistle Tea draws you only one card, which is then copied two times. The cost is increased, exactly because you recive these copies. And remember: you draw a card that you have chosen to be in your deck. Rolling the dices is still here, but again it's limited to your own deck. Somebody, like you, may say "But additional copies of one card is not an excuse to increase the cost", to wich I would reply "Three Edwin VanCleefs".
I would agree. There is some RNG, but cards you purposely include in your deck are bound to be better than random cards on average. My only complaint is that at 6 mana you couldn't play two on the same turn with Valeera the Hollow, but making such a huge pure value play without impacting the board is in most cases too high a price for Thistle Tea to see play anyway. When it is used it is mostly a budget finisher where you hope to duplicate something that can create a board swing or give you lethal.
Ok so I agree with your points. How powerful would it be in it was prepped for 2 mana compared to 3. Would it be overplayed or playable or still see no play?
The post tries to make a point and fails, cards from your deck are better than cards from the opponent's deck and better than random cards. Not really an apt comparison. Oh, forgot Nourish - this doesn't generate cards, it fatigues you, so cheaper.
I think the OP makes a good point. Why not make all spells neutral, that way they all have to be equal in power. In fact, get rid of classes altogether.
Thistle tea is too expensive. That's why it isn't played. Mimic Pod has a similar effect as thistle tea, but has the cost of other "draw two cards" effects (3 mana). But in the game there are good cards and bad cards. And consistency never was a major thing in hearthstone anyway.
Ok so I agree with your points. How powerful would it be in it was prepped for 2 mana compared to 3. Would it be overplayed or playable or still see no play?
I don't think changing the mana cost from 6 to 5 will help that much when it doesn't impact the board the turn you play it. Great value but it is a tempo loss to play it even if you are ahead, which is something Rogue can ill afford to do, especially if they are behind.
Thistle tea is significantly worse than the other cards. And I said give earlier not draw. You're comparing the best case scenarios it's just like saying oh I stole your nzoth, tirion, and rag lightlord with devour mind or stealing a quest mages ice blocks. Or cabalists giving 3 meteors/ice blocks. You can still low roll with thistle tea like getting 3 backstabs or preps. Plus all of these cards listed before are linked to class identities (except nourish for the draw). For Druids class, drawing is far more valuable and better because of the class design and how ramp works. Mage has spell generation. Priest is steal. Rogue is getting duplicates. Devour mind and cabalists time on average will give more value than thistle tea. So again why is thistle tea the exception? I'm questioning the design perspective rather than complaining. It seems odd how all the add three cards cost five with thistle tea having a similar effect and still costing one more.
The rest of your points have been met pretty well, and I agree with the points many others have made. I would like to mention that 3 backstabs or Preps especially is not (necessarily) a low roll, especially in Rogue. These are 0 cost cards which can be cycled with Auctioneer, or built into a much bigger Van Cleef.
Finally, my best example of how class cards can't be compared in a vacuum is Innervate vs Counterfeit coin. Same cost, different effect. Classes are different and that's the whole point of the game.
Fighting games used to have consistency among their characters... when they only had two characters. The second they added different ones with different movesets and damage, "consistency" was lost, balance became difficult... and a single game became an entire genre because it was awesome.
While I initially resisted this classification, most CCGs -- particularly Magic the Gathering and yes, Hearthstone -- are strategy games, and strategy games need lots of moving parts, and differences in tactics and approach. Different cards, across different classic, with distinct effects and different strengths and weaknesses are all a huge part of that. Getting rid of it would make the game worse, not better. I can definitely see why that would seem antithetical to good design when in other aspects of life, order and consistency are actually a good thing. But trust me, when designing a game, creating chaos can be just as important and cause just as much fun for the players as creating order.
Chaos and inconsistency require the players to adapt, to make dynamic decisions in response to a rapidly changing battlefield. =D
ok so we have cabalist tome which costs 5 mana, then Devour mind which also costs 5 mana then nourish, which costs 5 mana. Then thistle ea costs 6. WTF. This is bothering me. Can we either change thistle tea to 5 mana or raise the other cards to 6. I just want to see consistency. All these cards add three cards to your hand and thistle tea costs six for what reason? It's not like it's more powerful than the other cards so why does it cost 6?
Ummm... no?
First, stop comparing different classes.
Second, why did you pick these cards into account? I mean they are a lot different, while cards like Sense Demons, Ice Fishing and Forge of Souls are much more similiar and yet the problem you have mentioned is in them.
Third, they actually have different effects.
Cabalist's Tome doesn't draw cards, but rather generates you three random cards. The cost is not increased, because you are simply rolling the dices: you can highroll and get Meteor, Pyroblast and Ice Block or you can lowroll and get Shatter, Arcane Missiles and Flame Geyser.
Devour Mind also doesn't draw cards. It generates them by using your opponent's deck. The cost is not increased, because you are not only rolling the dices, but also gaining a bit of you opponent's deck, which is both good and bad. Bad, because you can get Frost Nova against Quest Mage. Good, because you know what is in your opponent's deck.
Nourish draws you three cards, albeit it's effect can be used to ramp. With the newest cringe card: Ultimate Infestation ramping has it's downsides less of a matter. That's because ramping uses cards, which you won't receive back, hence your hand is much smaller, making it possible to end up with the empty hand. Ultimate Infestation removes that risk by drawing you five cards and affecting the board immediatly. Don't forget that Nourish can be combined with Fandral Staghelm. The cost is not increased, because you use one card to draw three or ramp. Rolling the dices is also included, but it's limited to your own deck.
Thistle Tea draws you only one card, which is then copied two times. The cost is increased, exactly because you recive these copies. And remember: you draw a card that you have chosen to be in your deck. Rolling the dices is still here, but again it's limited to your own deck. Somebody, like you, may say "But additional copies of one card is not an excuse to increase the cost", to wich I would reply "Three Edwin VanCleefs".
Next time think before you complain.
Thistle tea is significantly worse than the other cards. And I said give earlier not draw. You're comparing the best case scenarios it's just like saying oh I stole your nzoth, tirion, and rag lightlord with devour mind or stealing a quest mages ice blocks. Or cabalists giving 3 meteors/ice blocks. You can still low roll with thistle tea like getting 3 backstabs or preps. Plus all of these cards listed before are linked to class identities (except nourish for the draw). For Druids class, drawing is far more valuable and better because of the class design and how ramp works. Mage has spell generation. Priest is steal. Rogue is getting duplicates. Devour mind and cabalists time on average will give more value than thistle tea. So again why is thistle tea the exception? I'm questioning the design perspective rather than complaining. It seems odd how all the add three cards cost five with thistle tea having a similar effect and still costing one more.
Yup, case in point Rogue has Preparation, so something like Thistle Tea has to be costed with that in mind from a design standpoint.
I would slightly disagree but only because those cards you mention fetch two cards of a specific type while Thistle Tea can hit any card in your deck and make two copies of it.
I would agree. There is some RNG, but cards you purposely include in your deck are bound to be better than random cards on average. My only complaint is that at 6 mana you couldn't play two on the same turn with Valeera the Hollow, but making such a huge pure value play without impacting the board is in most cases too high a price for Thistle Tea to see play anyway. When it is used it is mostly a budget finisher where you hope to duplicate something that can create a board swing or give you lethal.
The post tries to make a point and fails, cards from your deck are better than cards from the opponent's deck and better than random cards. Not really an apt comparison. Oh, forgot Nourish - this doesn't generate cards, it fatigues you, so cheaper.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I think the OP makes a good point. Why not make all spells neutral, that way they all have to be equal in power. In fact, get rid of classes altogether.
Thistle tea is too expensive. That's why it isn't played. Mimic Pod has a similar effect as thistle tea, but has the cost of other "draw two cards" effects (3 mana). But in the game there are good cards and bad cards. And consistency never was a major thing in hearthstone anyway.
Another point to consider when we talk about consistency is: the metagame when the card was released.
For example, in Hunter we have Princess Huhuran and Terrorscale Stalker. Both cards have the same effect, but Stalker is way better than Huhuran.
The reason: Huhuran was released when Sylvanas Windrunner was an important card in the metagame.
Greetings, traveler.
Let's make Hunter great.
Consistency is a null word in game design.
Fighting games used to have consistency among their characters... when they only had two characters. The second they added different ones with different movesets and damage, "consistency" was lost, balance became difficult... and a single game became an entire genre because it was awesome.
While I initially resisted this classification, most CCGs -- particularly Magic the Gathering and yes, Hearthstone -- are strategy games, and strategy games need lots of moving parts, and differences in tactics and approach. Different cards, across different classic, with distinct effects and different strengths and weaknesses are all a huge part of that. Getting rid of it would make the game worse, not better. I can definitely see why that would seem antithetical to good design when in other aspects of life, order and consistency are actually a good thing. But trust me, when designing a game, creating chaos can be just as important and cause just as much fun for the players as creating order.
Chaos and inconsistency require the players to adapt, to make dynamic decisions in response to a rapidly changing battlefield. =D