I don't think that Jade idol is the only 1-cost spell that is a problem. Inner fire can be quite insane as well.
The Black Knight also has an insane power level as long as there are a lot of big taunts, otherwise it is a vanilla 4/5 for 6 mana which is horrible. The Black Knight isn't a staple in the meta because there's not enough decks in the meta hurt by it. This card is really good, but I don't see it being a staple except in maybe a couple decks for the same reason that The Black Knight isn't a staple. There won't be enough decks in the meta that it hurts to justify playing it all the time, which is the sign of a good counter card.
So what you're saying with Inner Fire being reason for Skulking Geist is basically: We are now in phase where our design is so great, we need to use cards of new sets to counter vanilla cards. Oh, the design space freedom !
Also, I am not sure if you noticed the difference - how many cards can 1 The Black Knight kill ? How much does it ruin game plan for a deck with "lot of big taunts" ? In short, there are uses for it, but it is not worth it - because of the ratio between:
impact * (when it is useful) : (when it isn't useful)
I don't think that Jade idol is the only 1-cost spell that is a problem. Inner fire can be quite insane as well.
The Black Knight also has an insane power level as long as there are a lot of big taunts, otherwise it is a vanilla 4/5 for 6 mana which is horrible. The Black Knight isn't a staple in the meta because there's not enough decks in the meta hurt by it. This card is really good, but I don't see it being a staple except in maybe a couple decks for the same reason that The Black Knight isn't a staple. There won't be enough decks in the meta that it hurts to justify playing it all the time, which is the sign of a good counter card.
So what you're saying with Inner Fire being reason for Skulking Geist is basically: We are now in phase where our design is so great, we need to use cards of new sets to counter vanilla cards. Oh, the design space freedom !
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
Also, I am not sure if you noticed the difference - how many cards can 1 The Black Knight kill ? How much does it ruin game plan for a deck with "lot of big taunts" ? In short, there are uses for it, but it is not worth it - because of the ratio between:
impact * (when it is useful) : (when it isn't useful)
Compare to, hmm, ... can you guess ?
You're right, Black Knight is usually more impactful and game winning the turn you play it, while Skulking Geist is only typically impactful down the road if the game goes long enough for the effect to really matter. Black Knight is likely more game winning when played because it gives massive tempo advantage, while this card gives you no tempo advantage.
I mean, it destroys Jade, but why would you EVER run this otherwise? I feel like tech cards that are so devastating against the things they tech against are absolute terrible card design, but Blizzard seems to embrace it. Why.
Are you going to run this hoping you play Jade? If so the joke will be on you.
I don't think that Jade idol is the only 1-cost spell that is a problem. Inner fire can be quite insane as well.
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That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not sure where you got that idea. ^ THERE
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You're right, Black Knight is usually more impactful and game winning the turn you play it, while Skulking Geist is only typically impactful down the road if the game goes long enough for the effect to really matter. Black Knight is likely more game winning when played because it gives massive tempo advantage, while this card gives you no tempo advantage.
"The turn you play it". Indeed, evaluation with best metric possible.
Here, my guesses might be a bit skewed. But even after adjusting them to real result (which I'm not able to determine 100%), I still strongly believe the result will be the same:
- How many decks or archetypes were not played at all because of Black Knight ? My guess would be + - 0.
- How many decks or archetypes would be not played at all because of Skulking Geist ? My guess would be infinitely more than Black Knight.
There, that's the way to see more impactful card, by more impactful metric.
Well, Eater of Secrets shows up fairly often these days, and we still see plenty of Secret Mages, Burn Mages, and Exodia Mages around. I don't think this will kill Jade Druid or Inner Fire Priest by itself. As others have noted, it costs 6, so you're well into the game before you can play it and Inner Fire Priest could very well have won. You won't run more than one of these, and it essentially does nothing the turn you play it - it buys you an increased win chance down the road. So it's a low tempo, high value play that will get you killed against a lot of decks, but will give you much stronger odds against specifically Jade Druid and other decks that rely on 1 mana spells for combos.
I'm not too worried about it in wild either. A tech card like is this is only going to be playable if the meta is saturated with decks that it is good against. There is a lot of variety in wild, so the amount of games this will win for you there, vs. the amount of time it will be a dead card or super weak play is not going to favor running it. But if Jade Druid started to dominate wild format, I'll be happy to have this.
I think it's a good tech card, and definitely meta defining (with regard to the current standard meta). Control decks that have no chance to win against jade druid will run this and improve the matchup, which is the point of a tech card. That will weaken Jade Druid, but I think and hope they'll just find other tools. The Auctioneer/Infinite Jades thing is ridiculous. I don't dislike the jade mechanic, and I play Jade Rogue and Jade Shaman decks. I'd like to see Jade Druid stay strong, but be less polarizing. This might do it.
Well, Eater of Secrets shows up fairly often these days, and we still see plenty of Secret Mages, Burn Mages, and Exodia Mages around. I don't think this will kill Jade Druid or Inner Fire Priest by itself. As others have noted, it costs 6, so you're well into the game before you can play it and Inner Fire Priest could very well have won. You won't run more than one of these, and it essentially does nothing the turn you play it - it buys you an increased win chance down the road. So it's a low tempo, high value play that will get you killed against a lot of decks, but will give you much stronger odds against specifically Jade Druid and other decks that rely on 1 mana spells for combos.
I'm not too worried about it in wild either. A tech card like is this is only going to be playable if the meta is saturated with decks that it is good against. There is a lot of variety in wild, so the amount of games this will win for you there, vs. the amount of time it will be a dead card or super weak play is not going to favor running it. But if Jade Druid started to dominate wild format, I'll be happy to have this.
I think it's a good tech card, and definitely meta defining (with regard to the current standard meta). Control decks that have no chance to win against jade druid will run this and improve the matchup, which is the point of a tech card. That will weaken Jade Druid, but I think and hope they'll just find other tools. The Auctioneer/Infinite Jades thing is ridiculous. I don't dislike the jade mechanic, and I play Jade Rogue and Jade Shaman decks. I'd like to see Jade Druid stay strong, but be less polarizing. This might do it.
Yea but eater of secrets at least plays on the board and does not destroy opponent's deck automatically. This mechanic is so retarded just think about it.
This reminds me of Eater of Secrets, both of who seem printed to screw over exactly one deck. Less thorough a counter though. (Though amusingly, this card also destroys Secret Paladin if you can cast it before their Mysterious Challenger)
So yeah, this negates the worst of Jade Druid's ultra-lategame, but you still need to survive till the lategame, they can still summon a decent number of huge Jade Golems without Jade Idols. Taking out their Earthen Scales is a nice bonus, admittedly.
For this to see play, it will also have to see some use against other decks. What other decks have significant 1-cost spells?
Evolve Shaman? They now have a Hero card as plan B, so it doesn't hurt them as much, plus they might pull off their evolve turn the turn before you have enough mana to cast this. Still, not useless.
Inner Fire Priest maybe, but they can refill with Lyra the Sunshard... though missing their Power Word: Shields and Potion of Madnesses might make that harder. The real problem is that they can go off before turn 6. Not useless, but meh nonetheless.
Conceal is gone nowadays as is Power Overwhelming, which would have been good decks to use this against to shut down Auctioneer and Leeroy combos respectively. A while back control warrior would have been vulnerable as it used to run Shield Slam and Execute, but Shield Slam isn't used much anymore and Execute is now 2 mana, so the best you could hope for nowadays is hitting your opponent's Whirlwinds. And plenty of 1 mana spells are only relevant earlygame... Lost in the Jungle, Mark of the Lotus, etc. Quests are always cast before turn 6...
It doesn't necessarily win you the game against Jade Druid, and I don't think it is useful enough against other decks, but it has potential.
(Some last thoughts... would Nerubian Unraveler protect against this card? What if you had an Emperor Thaurissan-discounted Jade Idol in your hand?)
I don't like counter cards like this. Same with the pirate-eating crab.
One, they're only released during content expansions, which means that they are very slow to happen and you have to buy/open/craft them.
Two, instead of fixing the issue, they can now ignore player feedback by saying "Well we made a counter card, it's up to you to use it."
In the case of the pirate-crab, the focus is so narrow it's a liability if you DON'T fight pirates. This one at least have very, very (very) slight use outside of that, but it still "feelsbadman" if I am memeing correctly. Not a fun card to have played against you, not a fun card to have had to play or put in your deck.
Also this doesn't *only* counter a single deck, nor does it *only* counter. Many classes make use of 1-cost spells, and you could make the point that by removing your own 1-cost spells on turn 6, you're increasing the likelihood you draw something useful on future turns (same thing for the opponent, but still....just want to encourage you all to look at this from a perspective other than "this card exists exclusively to ruin Jade Druid").
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I don't like counter cards like this. Same with the pirate-eating crab.
One, they're only released during content expansions, which means that they are very slow to happen and you have to buy/open/craft them.
Two, instead of fixing the issue, they can now ignore player feedback by saying "Well we made a counter card, it's up to you to use it."
In the case of the pirate-crab, the focus is so narrow it's a liability if you DON'T fight pirates. This one at least have very, very (very) slight use outside of that, but it still "feelsbadman" if I am memeing correctly. Not a fun card to have played against you, not a fun card to have had to play or put in your deck.
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I would have preferred a direct Jade Idol nerf. However, better than nothing : expansion would have been "Wrath of the Jade Idol" otherwise, with JAde Idol as the single meta-defining deck
nope cause they works on white mana, not green/reduced mana. like molten giants make always 25 dmg with the paladin spell. secrets from mage are 3 mana, so it doesnt destroy them, even if u have sorc apprentice..
I enjoy Wild exactly for the reason there are so many combinations, fun and silly decks, lot of experimentation, less netdecking from opponents.
From the point of view of anyone like me, who is trying to build a deck, how many decks / archetypes is Eater of Secrets going to prevent me from playing ? Secret Paladin, anything else ? Probably not.
Skulking Geist ? Well, I will not be playing Inner Fire Priest (which basically means a lot of different decks with Inner Fire as main threat) with hoping to kill opponent before he can play SG. I will not be playing my own version of Jade Idol Druid which tries to defend until infinity idols. I will not be playing mutliple Paladin decks with synergies for different secrets. I will not be playing ... see the point that shows the difference between these 2 ?
There is also another point of view, to realise how this mechanic is limiting. We have Acidic Swamp Ooze as tech vs weapons. You decide while building your deck to use it, then:
- Only some decks have weapons - reduction of effectivity as counter.
- Only in some of games vs weapons you would be able to remove weapon with it - reduction of effectivity as counter.
- When you do remove weapon with it, it is 1 card vs 1 card. However impactful it might be in one specific game, generally is as usefull as any good card in the game when all conditions for the tech counter were met. It is in most cases not removing the specific deck / archetype of your opponent from metagame, and therefore not limiting his deckbuidling as much.
For Skulking Geist, you decide to use him while building deck, you stay away from 1 mana cost spells, and then:
- Many decks / archetypes have 1 mana cost spells, even multiples of them, for some it is their win condition, for other a very significant increase of win chances - countering so many more enemy decks.
- In any game you use GS as soon as you can, and there is much higher chance that it will remove something from your opponent -much easier to get intended "tech value" / countering from GS.
- And the impact of when you use it - possibly can remove cards from hand (leaving him with less immediate options to play) and from deck (ruining all possible future options). Result is possibly multiple cards in both hand and deck, and guaranteed for the remainder of the game (picture it as having Ooze's battlecry available for free for the rest of the game).
Other way to look at it: Let's say GS is fine. Future "tech" cards with same design (remove all from hand + decks that fullfill condition): 2-cost minions, 3-cost weapons, any-cost cards that aren't spell or minion or weapon (quest, hero cards). Tech revolution, the HS way.
I don't think that Jade idol is the only 1-cost spell that is a problem. Inner fire can be quite insane as well.
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So what you're saying with Inner Fire being reason for Skulking Geist is basically: We are now in phase where our design is so great, we need to use cards of new sets to counter vanilla cards. Oh, the design space freedom !
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not sure where you got that idea. ^ THERE
Now I see the issue, you misinterpreted my comment. I was not in any way saying that inner fire was the reason for Skulking Geist, I was merely stating that there are more 1-drop spells that are OP in certain decks. Sorry for any confusion.
"The turn you play it". Indeed, evaluation with best metric possible.
Here, my guesses might be a bit skewed. But even after adjusting them to real result (which I'm not able to determine 100%), I still strongly believe the result will be the same:
- How many decks or archetypes were not played at all because of Black Knight ? My guess would be + - 0.
- How many decks or archetypes would be not played at all because of Skulking Geist ? My guess would be infinitely more than Black Knight.
There, that's the way to see more impactful card, by more impactful metric.
No decks will be pushed out of the meta because of Skulking Geist. I've played enough jade druid to know that many games are decided long before the Jade Idol train leaves the station. Skulking Geist will likely end up a fringe card just like The Black Knight for the same reason: Bad stat line and not enough decks in the meta hurt by it to justify it as a staple. Will it see play? Yes. Will it see play enough to push decks out of the meta? No. It isn't even close to an auto win even if you play it against the right deck.
1) Skulking Geist will almost ALWAYS burn cards, whatever you're facing. Eater of Secrets on the other hand is useful against 2-3 archetypes only, and you must draw it when they have a secret. Skulking Geist doesn't really care of the moment it is played.
2) Even in the worse case scenario (which happens far more often with Eater of Secrets than with Skulking Geist), playing a 4/6 on turn 6 is far better than a 2/4 on turn 4. By turn 6, you'll have drawn other things in your deck. On turn 4 you want to play on curve.
Those 2 arguments show how stronger Skulking Geist is in comparison to every other tech cards, which make it NOT a tech card, but an AUTO-INCLUDE. And no, a tech card being an auto-include in a lot of decks (and literally destroying several archetypes) is not a healthy design at all.
I humbly disagree.
a 6 mana 4/6 is as terrible as a 4 mana 2/4 or as a 5 mana 3/5 ( Tol'vir Warden )
Meanwhile, on turn 4, tempo is far more important and so are minion stats. A 2/4 like Eater of Secrets can be game losing.
So I can't agree with the fact that this is similar to Eater of Secrets. This plus the fact that the effect is far more powerful.
If it was a 5/3, like every other geist (that all have worse effects, btw), it would have been a real tech card, with a real drawback of puting it in your deck. With those stats, it's an auto-include in too many decks. A tech card should NEVER become an auto-include. BGH was cancer, this card is even worse.
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So what you're saying with Inner Fire being reason for Skulking Geist is basically: We are now in phase where our design is so great, we need to use cards of new sets to counter vanilla cards. Oh, the design space freedom !
Also, I am not sure if you noticed the difference - how many cards can 1 The Black Knight kill ? How much does it ruin game plan for a deck with "lot of big taunts" ? In short, there are uses for it, but it is not worth it - because of the ratio between:
impact * (when it is useful) : (when it isn't useful)
Compare to, hmm, ... can you guess ?
Guys you are all missing the mega anti exodia mage combo. Turn 10, Millhouse Manastorm > Doomed Apprentice > The Coin > Skulking Geist!
Kappa...just in case anyone thought I was serious.
I can't believe they would nerf weasel tunneler like this!
Disgusting card. Disgusting idea. They could nerf jade druid some other way.
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I mean, it destroys Jade, but why would you EVER run this otherwise? I feel like tech cards that are so devastating against the things they tech against are absolute terrible card design, but Blizzard seems to embrace it. Why.
Are you going to run this hoping you play Jade? If so the joke will be on you.
Shit, this is completely nuts!!!!!!
Well, Eater of Secrets shows up fairly often these days, and we still see plenty of Secret Mages, Burn Mages, and Exodia Mages around. I don't think this will kill Jade Druid or Inner Fire Priest by itself. As others have noted, it costs 6, so you're well into the game before you can play it and Inner Fire Priest could very well have won. You won't run more than one of these, and it essentially does nothing the turn you play it - it buys you an increased win chance down the road. So it's a low tempo, high value play that will get you killed against a lot of decks, but will give you much stronger odds against specifically Jade Druid and other decks that rely on 1 mana spells for combos.
I'm not too worried about it in wild either. A tech card like is this is only going to be playable if the meta is saturated with decks that it is good against. There is a lot of variety in wild, so the amount of games this will win for you there, vs. the amount of time it will be a dead card or super weak play is not going to favor running it. But if Jade Druid started to dominate wild format, I'll be happy to have this.
I think it's a good tech card, and definitely meta defining (with regard to the current standard meta). Control decks that have no chance to win against jade druid will run this and improve the matchup, which is the point of a tech card. That will weaken Jade Druid, but I think and hope they'll just find other tools. The Auctioneer/Infinite Jades thing is ridiculous. I don't dislike the jade mechanic, and I play Jade Rogue and Jade Shaman decks. I'd like to see Jade Druid stay strong, but be less polarizing. This might do it.
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This reminds me of Eater of Secrets, both of who seem printed to screw over exactly one deck. Less thorough a counter though. (Though amusingly, this card also destroys Secret Paladin if you can cast it before their Mysterious Challenger)
So yeah, this negates the worst of Jade Druid's ultra-lategame, but you still need to survive till the lategame, they can still summon a decent number of huge Jade Golems without Jade Idols. Taking out their Earthen Scales is a nice bonus, admittedly.
For this to see play, it will also have to see some use against other decks. What other decks have significant 1-cost spells?
Evolve Shaman? They now have a Hero card as plan B, so it doesn't hurt them as much, plus they might pull off their evolve turn the turn before you have enough mana to cast this. Still, not useless.
Inner Fire Priest maybe, but they can refill with Lyra the Sunshard... though missing their Power Word: Shields and Potion of Madnesses might make that harder. The real problem is that they can go off before turn 6. Not useless, but meh nonetheless.
Conceal is gone nowadays as is Power Overwhelming, which would have been good decks to use this against to shut down Auctioneer and Leeroy combos respectively. A while back control warrior would have been vulnerable as it used to run Shield Slam and Execute, but Shield Slam isn't used much anymore and Execute is now 2 mana, so the best you could hope for nowadays is hitting your opponent's Whirlwinds. And plenty of 1 mana spells are only relevant earlygame... Lost in the Jungle, Mark of the Lotus, etc. Quests are always cast before turn 6...
It doesn't necessarily win you the game against Jade Druid, and I don't think it is useful enough against other decks, but it has potential.
(Some last thoughts... would Nerubian Unraveler protect against this card? What if you had an Emperor Thaurissan-discounted Jade Idol in your hand?)
I don't like counter cards like this. Same with the pirate-eating crab.
One, they're only released during content expansions, which means that they are very slow to happen and you have to buy/open/craft them.
Two, instead of fixing the issue, they can now ignore player feedback by saying "Well we made a counter card, it's up to you to use it."
In the case of the pirate-crab, the focus is so narrow it's a liability if you DON'T fight pirates. This one at least have very, very (very) slight use outside of that, but it still "feelsbadman" if I am memeing correctly. Not a fun card to have played against you, not a fun card to have had to play or put in your deck.
Also this doesn't *only* counter a single deck, nor does it *only* counter. Many classes make use of 1-cost spells, and you could make the point that by removing your own 1-cost spells on turn 6, you're increasing the likelihood you draw something useful on future turns (same thing for the opponent, but still....just want to encourage you all to look at this from a perspective other than "this card exists exclusively to ruin Jade Druid").
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Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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