Hearthpwn

Quote from byzants >>

Quote from RK89450 >>

I don't see why others think that this card is bad. It's a solid 2 mana 2/3 minion with a bonus of removing a potentially good card from your opponent.

 Imagine if the card read "remove the bottom card of your opponent's deck".

Since the top card and the bottom card are both unknowns, at the time of playing the card the distinction does not matter. That isn't debatable; unknowns are unknowns.

Quote from skorpionex >>

Quote from byzants >>

Quote from RK89450 >>

I don't see why others think that this card is bad. It's a solid 2 mana 2/3 minion with a bonus of removing a potentially good card from your opponent.

 Imagine if the card read "remove the bottom card of your opponent's deck".

Since the top card and the bottom card are both unknowns, at the time of playing the card the distinction does not matter. That isn't debatable; unknowns are unknowns.

 Bad comparision. Technically HS decks don't have "top" and "bottom". They are reshuffled each time you change them during game (put something, discard etc.). Point of this card is to remove key cards - "oh, u played exodia mage, too bad sb discarded your Antonidas" or "U built deck around your DK hero? That one I just discarded?"

This card is just plain bad. It is a 2/3 with no impact on board. PleasE warlocks play your meta defining card against me. I will be happy.

Seen the card like maybe three time. Even when it pulled 'an above average card' I never lost. Actually I haven't lost to Warlock yet (HOPING that this is mostly luck/unrefined decklists because I would love to see more class diversity) but the EASIEST games are by far the ones where they're either running that insanely counterproductive Egg package or else when they drop that sweet, sweet 2/3 vanilla minion :)

Quote from Harmonius >>

Seen the card like maybe three time. Even when it pulled 'an above average card' I never lost. Actually I haven't lost to Warlock yet (HOPING that this is mostly luck/unrefined decklists because I would love to see more class diversity) but the EASIEST games are by far the ones where they're either running that insanely counterproductive Egg package or else when they drop that sweet, sweet 2/3 vanilla minion :)

Quote from Zeus1234 >>

I showed this card to one of my old MTG buddies, here's what he said:
"I don't know how good a 2/3 for 2 mana is, but that ability does nothing"

And he is totally correct :)


Here is a magic the gathering card that has seen no play whatsoever in competitive play:

It is toxic and tilting alright. Bad? absolutely not. Against aggro it may not have a huge impact but against control decks, it may just win you the game. A TWO drop guys. Quest mage's Antonidas or a N'zoth is instant game over. Maybe this card should not exist like vicious whatever but it does. So calling this card not mediocre but bad is simply silly.

Remember that it is a two drop. And sometimes at turn two we pass doing nothing and just emote.

Quote from twixxx2 >>

It is toxic and tilting alright. Bad? absolutely not. Against aggro it may not have a huge impact but against control decks, it may just win you the game. A TWO drop guys. Quest mage's Antonidas or a N'zoth is instant game over. Maybe this card should not exist like vicious whatever but it does. So calling this card not mediocre but bad is simply silly.

Remember that it is a two drop. And sometimes at turn two we pass doing nothing and just emote.

The thing is even removing burn spells from your opponent is a big deal. Dying to minions is fairly rare due to having plenty of cheap AoE (Defile is amazing btw) so if you can cut down on their potential burn before you get to the DK then you are giving yourself much better odds on winning.

Quote from Raptarius >>

The thing is even removing burn spells from your opponent is a big deal. Dying to minions is fairly rare due to having plenty of cheap AoE (Defile is amazing btw) so if you can cut down on their potential burn before you get to the DK then you are giving yourself much better odds on winning.

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from qtstorm >>

Quote from Raptarius >>

The thing is even removing burn spells from your opponent is a big deal. Dying to minions is fairly rare due to having plenty of cheap AoE (Defile is amazing btw) so if you can cut down on their potential burn before you get to the DK then you are giving yourself much better odds on winning.

 .... except if you remove a non burn spell they'll draw the burn they wouldn't have drawn in the first place. This card has a net 0 effect on draws and I can't believe people still don't understand this.

 0 effect on the long term, over hundreds of games.

But it will either have a positive or negative impact in any given game, never 0.

I can't believe people still don't understand this. 

I agree with what Kibler said about this card and how the effect is overated. Even so I don't care, I run 2 in my control warlock and I love it. On average I am happy with the cards that have been taken (last 5 were Grommash, bloodhoof brave, murloc tidecaller, shadow visions and primordial glyph). The only one which really messed with their game was Grommash (it was an enrage/animated berserker deck and I was hanging around Grommash range for about 7 or 8 turns) but even so I was glad to see most of those cards gone. Only benign one was murloc tidecaller.

I like cards which can give a different story to each match. This is a 2 mana 2/3 with just that effect. Plus my deck has gone into fatigue 4 times in the last 10 games against other control decks and there is no doubt the 2 milled cards help there too.

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from qtstorm >>

Quote from Raptarius >>

The thing is even removing burn spells from your opponent is a big deal. Dying to minions is fairly rare due to having plenty of cheap AoE (Defile is amazing btw) so if you can cut down on their potential burn before you get to the DK then you are giving yourself much better odds on winning.

 .... except if you remove a non burn spell they'll draw the burn they wouldn't have drawn in the first place. This card has a net 0 effect on draws and I can't believe people still don't understand this.

 0 effect on the long term, over hundreds of games.

But it will either have a positive or negative impact in any given game, never 0.

I can't believe people still don't understand this. 

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from qtstorm >>

Quote from Raptarius >>

The thing is even removing burn spells from your opponent is a big deal. Dying to minions is fairly rare due to having plenty of cheap AoE (Defile is amazing btw) so if you can cut down on their potential burn before you get to the DK then you are giving yourself much better odds on winning.

 .... except if you remove a non burn spell they'll draw the burn they wouldn't have drawn in the first place. This card has a net 0 effect on draws and I can't believe people still don't understand this.

 0 effect on the long term, over hundreds of games.

But it will either have a positive or negative impact in any given game, never 0.

I can't believe people still don't understand this. 

A misunderstanding of the issue, if this impacted playing the card you would never cut cards in poker.

It will only matter if your opponent reaches the bottom of his deck. Unknowns are unknowns, and no matter how you and three dozens others in this thread think you can magically transform them to knowns - you can't.

Looking at the game in hindsight is completely irrelevant afterwards to what you should consider when playing the card. When you play the card, the next card in your opponent's deck is an unknown. 

 

 

 No, you're wrong, period, quit this bullshit about poker or MTG or whatever nonsense. Just play a damn Renolock, wait until you get Reno discarded, and watch yourself loosing the game because of it, way before you get to fatigue. Then play a damn Freeze mage, wait until you get a doomsayer discarded which will let you draw a fireball instead and win the game because of it.

Gnomeferatu impacts positively OR negatively every game and you do not need to get to fatigue. Once you get to fatigue, Gnomeferatu impacts the game AGAIN, and this time, always positively for the user.

In the long term, gnomeferatu is shit, because the odds of having a negative impact on your game are higher than having a positive impact, and the oddsof getting to fatigue don't make up for it. Do the math.

Quote from tictactucroc >>

This is because you are removing an unknown.

You know what card is being removed.

1) I don't need to know that he removed my Reno, if he indeed removed my Reno I will lose that game because of it, because I can no longer draw my Reno this entire game and the opponent will burst me down. If Reno was the bottom card of my deck, well yes I would have lost anyway, probably. But it most likely was NOT the bottom card, and remember decks are ordered in hearthstone. (source : https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/689923112792526848 ) Gnomeferatu removed a key card and had a strong, positive impact in this game for the user. (You know all of that already if you ever played a Reno deck against mill rogue. You lose the game instantly even if Reno was the only milled card this entire game.)

2) If a card that isn't Reno is removed, and is a card I don't really need for the matchup, then Gnomeferatu is getting me closer to Reno, the core piece of my entire strategy, I am slightly more likely to win this game. And it also costed me to play a 2 mana 2/3 vanilla minion which isn't always good enough against strong openers. Gnomeferatu didn't remove a key card and had a negative (although negligible) impact in this game for the user. 

3) If you get to fatigue, either 1) or 2) already happened, now you'll start taking face damage earlier because of Gnomeferatu, it has a guaranteed positive (again, negligible) impact on the user.

1) or 2) will always happen whenever you play Gnomeferatu, sometimes 3) will happen on top of it, it will always do something, and saying things like "this card only matters for fatigue battle" is plain wrong understanding of this card. But of course, in most decks, 2) is far more likely to happen than 1) and 3). That is why Gnomeferatu is a bad card in Hearthstone, and is essentially a slightly worse river crocolisk that can still single handedly win you games from time to time.

so... saw this card being played exactly 0 times so far and I have been playing against MANY warlocks... huh.. hmmm??

turn out pros opinion on this card is very accurate

this card standalone is ok (not good,not bad) but the impact is very low in real match .It only work against extremely greedy or gimmick deck which 2/3 deck are important card and doesnt have alternative way to win 

Quote from DoubleSummon >>

so... saw this card being played exactly 0 times so far and I have been playing against MANY warlocks... huh.. hmmm??

Quote from Mandelised >>

Quote from Zeus1234 >>

I showed this card to one of my old MTG buddies, here's what he said:
"I don't know how good a 2/3 for 2 mana is, but that ability does nothing"

And he is totally correct :)


Here is a magic the gathering card that has seen no play whatsoever in competitive play:

 with a 60 card deck  MTG does not compare like this BTW and it had graveyard interaction cards as well

Quote from Rapidosamurai >>

Quote from dzquetzal >>

Quote from Rapidosamurai >>

...but if you playing vs control would you to let your opponent to draw leach king or you would put him "on bottom" of the deck....you cant say that its the same like thet card is already on bottom of deck because its on fckin top and they would draw it next turn...im talking about wild cause im playing only wild....there is much more control decks and every card that have board clear or anything else is good to remove... I cant listen to those who say that its like that card started on bottom.... Because it didnt...its the same as i tell some1 this

And how exactly do you know which card is on top?
Let's say the opponent has 10 more cards in deck and will draw 5 more cards this game (cards 1-2-3-4-5).
If you play Gnomeferatu, he will instead draw cards 2-3-4-5-6.
You worry if card #1 is the Lich King, but it's equally likely that card #6 is the Lich King.

If card #1 will not be drawn, it doesn't matter where you put it (bottom of the deck or outside the deck), it will not have an impact on the game in any case.

Basically, as long as you can not manipulate the card order in your deck, it doesn't matter which X cards from the deck will be drawn (if the deck is shuffled). Card #6 is inherently of no better or worse quality than card #1. Yes, it might be more important to draw it at that timing, but it may also be worse. Gnomeferatu just basically cuts your deck (or, moves the top card to a position where it will not be drawn, hence why people say bottom of the deck, hence why they also say it only matters if you hit fatigue).

i.e. in your Reno example (and assuming my case of opp drawing 5 more cards this game), sure, if Reno was on top, it feels good to have removed him.
But you actually have a 4x greater chance that it is in one of the 4 cards after it, and you just made the opponent draw it a turn earlier.
You also have just as equal chance that it is card #6, which means you now made the opponent draw it right before dying, as opposed to not drawing it at all.

There is no benefit to changing the order of a shuffled deck!

 Goooooood....how many times i must say in control deck every fck card have almost same value rag reno dr7 leach king dk twnether or some other board clears...how many times i won couse the burned their board clears and still played reno...its not agro deck witch dont care about any card cause all are same.."face"....its control..rather will remove anything else but reno...how many times i got saved because shadowflame, tw nether or helfire then reno...reno doest win you control match...it wins you agro match..i said i will change dark peddler for this...better stats and effect of peddler is so bad...