Hearthpwn

shuffle reno Jackson into my deck?, yes please :D

Quote from Lintu107 >>

I wonder how many days Fatigue Warrior mirrors are gonna take.

have double dead man's hand in your hand, use it. wait for the 3rd deadmans hand to come to hand, use it, infinite value. 

mine warrior in wild.

Now that's a control card.  Hello more C'thuns.

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

You seem consistently caught up in a bad example which isn't analogous. You don't actually run more than 30 cards in your deck.

What you do is have the option to add value to games running long, and today that's CW's backdraw. You simply run out, now you can shuffle into your deck and cycle a lot near the end, that's huge. No, it's not going to lift it to the levels of priest, but it'll be closer than it is now.

Your claim about aggro and warnings off "dead cards" is just off. CW today can run greedy and crush aggro completely fine, replacing a heavy card with this card isn't going to hurt that at all.

 

Quote from Purpenflurb >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

You seem consistently caught up in a bad example which isn't analogous. You don't actually run more than 30 cards in your deck.

What you do is have the option to add value to games running long, and today that's CW's backdraw. You simply run out, now you can shuffle into your deck and cycle a lot near the end, that's huge. No, it's not going to lift it to the levels of priest, but it'll be closer than it is now.

Your claim about aggro and warnings off "dead cards" is just off. CW today can run greedy and crush aggro completely fine, replacing a heavy card with this card isn't going to hurt that at all.

 

 I don't even understand what you are trying to nitpick.  It isn't an example.  It is what the card is doing.  It shuffles more cards into your deck, ergo it gives you an effective deck of more than 30 cards.  That is literally all it does.  

You have to remember, having cards in your deck isn't value, having cards in your hand is value.  For your first 30 draws, you will be getting the same number of cards no matter how many cards are in your deck.  You only start to get more value once you would have started to fatigue, because you are getting a card when you wouldn't have otherwise. 

It is an extremely simple analysis of what dead man's hand is doing.  It lets you continue to draw cards instead of taking fatigue damage once you reach that point.  In games that do not reach the point of fatigue, it is worthless. 

So how often do you think you can reach fatigue?  My contention is, not very often.  There are way too many decks that just won't let you.  And blizzard has clearly shown that they don't want fatigue matchups to be common, as evidenced by cards like the warrior quest and jades.  

What it boils down to is that you believe there is an archetype that will need to reliably play more than 30 cards to win a game.  If you don't agree with that statement, then you really shouldn't even be considering dead man's hand, because again, that is the only thing the card accomplishes.  I contend that fatigue matchups have always been rare, and are going to continue to be rare.  Which, short of something really specific (say, a card that wants you to have more cards in your deck) would mean that dead man's hand cannot possibly be good.

>50% rate it meta-defining, lul. It only does something when fatigues is reached and is otherwise a dead draw, furthermore it still doesn't outvalue Jade Druid. 

Thats insane. Infinity cards in a control deck. Who needs jades, when you can shuffle n'zoths? 

Not too slow for deck, too slwo for meta, actual meta, maybe it will change (heh) and if you are playing against aggro almost always you have a small hand.

Quote from DominikKasprzak >>

This is Prince Malchezaar all over again

Quote from DoubleSummon >>

yet another over hyped card.. yes you can go infinite, but you are spending 2 mana to do nothing rogue had gang up, saw exactly 0 play so yep..

good against control, no doubt, few matches go to fatigue nowadays though.

Quote from DoubleSummon >>

yet another over hyped card.. yes you can go infinite, but you are spending 2 mana to do nothing rogue had gang up, saw exactly 0 play so yep..

good against control, no doubt, few matches go to fatigue nowadays though.

Most likely insanely overrated. This is Gang Up for Warrior - not that Gang Up never saw play, but it's hardy been meta-definig.

It is a card that can only give value against other extremely slow decks. Unless we're headed into a glacially slow meta, I don't see how playing a card that is literally value and tempo negative is going to accomplish anything. 

I'm sure someone will find a way to use it... but I don't think this card is what Control Warrior needs. Jade Druid will still outvalue them most of the time, Freeze will still lose to them, and the card only dilutes the deck against Tempo, Midrange and Aggro strategies (as in, like, almost every deck ever).

How is this card fair for 2 mana? It isn't and you all know it. We should be demanding they just nerf jade idol, not let it set the new standard for cards like this. Blizzard will break their own game rather than swallow the mistake that was jade idol, makes me very unhappy. There was nothing wrong with the fatigue mechanic, it encouraged seriously high level play, stop shitting all over it.

This card is crazy good! And you get TWO of them!!!! This could be the card to cure Jade Druid! 

Quote from SavageSoul1 >>

Quote from l4chsnacken >>

>50% rate it meta-defining, lul. It only does something when fatigues is reached and is otherwise a dead draw, furthermore it still doesn't outvalue Jade Druid. 

 You are right that it doesn't do anything against jade druid.
But you are wrong in that it only does something in fatigue.

It gives the possibility to play 2 times the same legendary or 4 times the same other card.
That can be very strong! But it can also be too slow. This is another wait and see card.
For control vs control this is a good card, maybe against midrange too but certainly not against aggro. 
Only perhaps if it allows to play shieldblock which you oterwise wouldn't put in your deck for value reasons

Quote from Thomasvicfelix >>

Quote from Purpenflurb >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

You seem consistently caught up in a bad example which isn't analogous. You don't actually run more than 30 cards in your deck.

What you do is have the option to add value to games running long, and today that's CW's backdraw. You simply run out, now you can shuffle into your deck and cycle a lot near the end, that's huge. No, it's not going to lift it to the levels of priest, but it'll be closer than it is now.

Your claim about aggro and warnings off "dead cards" is just off. CW today can run greedy and crush aggro completely fine, replacing a heavy card with this card isn't going to hurt that at all.

 

 I don't even understand what you are trying to nitpick.  It isn't an example.  It is what the card is doing.  It shuffles more cards into your deck, ergo it gives you an effective deck of more than 30 cards.  That is literally all it does.  

You have to remember, having cards in your deck isn't value, having cards in your hand is value.  For your first 30 draws, you will be getting the same number of cards no matter how many cards are in your deck.  You only start to get more value once you would have started to fatigue, because you are getting a card when you wouldn't have otherwise. 

It is an extremely simple analysis of what dead man's hand is doing.  It lets you continue to draw cards instead of taking fatigue damage once you reach that point.  In games that do not reach the point of fatigue, it is worthless. 

So how often do you think you can reach fatigue?  My contention is, not very often.  There are way too many decks that just won't let you.  And blizzard has clearly shown that they don't want fatigue matchups to be common, as evidenced by cards like the warrior quest and jades.  

What it boils down to is that you believe there is an archetype that will need to reliably play more than 30 cards to win a game.  If you don't agree with that statement, then you really shouldn't even be considering dead man's hand, because again, that is the only thing the card accomplishes.  I contend that fatigue matchups have always been rare, and are going to continue to be rare.  Which, short of something really specific (say, a card that wants you to have more cards in your deck) would mean that dead man's hand cannot possibly be good.

THE problem is CW always capable of bring games to fatigue. Look at the deck removal arsenal, 3 uncondition compleboard clear, 2 medium flamestrike level one, few small one in WW form. 4 hard single target removal, Winaxe,etc. If the draw is good, it blow away very thing aggro and midrange decks can throw at them. CW is disapear in ladder because their Control matchup is asymal, in standard their control counterpart keep generating value thus the deck run out of tools to deal with. But with this card, in theory the deck has infinite bralws, slam, execute, weapon etc so all other decks will run out of threat. Ofc in some matchup, Jade druid for example , the deck has to play threats to have a chance of winning. BUT with most control matchup, now we just sit there and remove everything, like in the past.

The best part about this card is that if the meta becomes n'zoth dead mans weasel warrior, there can be 42 weasels in one mirror match game!

Quote from sinshado >>

The best part about this card is that if the meta becomes n'zoth dead mans weasel warrior, there can be 42 weasels in one mirror match game!

Yes, nice! Warrio Tier 1 deck again...

What about class balance, Blizz? No?