Paladin: Equality + Consecration (or Wild Pyromancer + Equality) Rogue: Vanish Priest: Dispel Magic (doesn't kill the board, but removes all conceals & resets Edwin & other buffed minions back to original low stats) Mage: Blizzard (doesn't necessarily kill the board either, but freezes everything; or they can play Frost Nova + Doomsayer)
Iceblock there's only one class that has an inherent class card that can deal with Ice Block, & that's the Hunter's Flare. Everyone else has to run something crappy like the neutral card Eater of Secrets that has sub-par stats & is only useful in 1/3 of the match-ups...
Equality + Activator requires you to have both cards in hand, which is not something always have. You should aim for single card removals that are always effective.
Vanish is corret, completely effective.
Mass Dispell also works to an extent. When you have Arcane Giants staring you down aswell, they don't get affected, so it's not completely effective. It needs to remove the minions, not simply silence them, because not all minions will be affected not does it remove all the threat, you didn't really remove the board. It works much like Streetwise Investigator but better since it's less mana and also silences minion, but it still doesn't remove them, meaning you have a maximum of 6 Mana to deal with the minions.
Blizzard, as I said, simply minimizes the impact of Conceal, just like Frost Nova. It doesn't do anything to remove the board, it simply stops them for that turn, but the minions will still be there.
Hunter's Flare effectively counters Secrets since it removes them, you don't need to use anything else to deal with the secrets. The same happens with Eater of Secrets. It destroys the Secrets, it doesn't simply reveal them. As for how "bad" it is, well it's a tech card, it's not meant to be included in every deck without risk or consequence. If you want a way to deal with Secrets effectively, you need to pay a price in your deck for that advantage. You would be amazed to see how popular this card is in Tournament and High Legend Ladder. If you don't believe me, just got and check.
I totally understand that Equality + Activator requires you to have both cards in hand, and that Dispel Magic won't do anything vs. Arcane Giants; that wasn't my point. My point was simply to state that your original comment of "Fact is only one class in the game has a 100% guaranteed way to deal with a Concealed board, that being Warlock, which can Twisting Nether or Doom the whole board, regardless of the stats the minion has, and doesn't rely on RNG like Brawl which can leave a Concealed minion alive." was completely incorrect. Which I did.
On a side note, the few times I encountered Rogues using Conceal (back when it was available), the primary issue was never stand-alone high-value cards such as Arcane Giant that could obliterate my hero's face regardless of whether they were concealed or not, it was usually a really buffed Edwin VanCleef or Questing Adventurer. Rogues spent a lot of low-cost cards to buff those two to really big numbers, so obviously they don't want my Priest to simply Shadow Word: Death, Mind Control, or (since it hadn't been rotated out yet) Entomb it, hence the need to Conceal it to make it untargetable. So in that sense, Dispel Magic is a very good counter in those situations, as it doesn't just remove the Conceal, it removes all the buffs.
Also, I know Blizzard doesn't remove the concealed minions; it doesn't usually need to. The two damage from Blizzard, followed by the four damage from the Turn 7 Flamestrike, will usually do that. If not, just follow up with another Blizzard or Frost Nova. Or again, Doomsayer on the board after you've frozen it. (After all, all the Mage has to do is survive another round or two with her Ice Blocks before using Alexstrasza to knock one's opponent down to 15 HP & then burn their face with two Fireballs & a Frostbolt on Turn 10...)
I would love to see Ice Block deleted from the game, it's the epitome of non interactive cards in Hearthstone and facilitates even more non interactive decks. Blizzard should be able to design "smarter" cards for Mage sustainability than "nah na nah na nah na, you can't kill me." I could do it in right now, like; Secret, 3 mana - whenever a character attacks your Hero, Freeze all enemy characters. At least then you'd still be able to do damage with Charge, Spells and Hero Powers to end the game.
Ice Block is uninteractive because you can effectively stall for one or two more turns to perform an Exodia Combo with Open the Waygate and win. It is frustrating to know that you have lethal but need to wait for 1 more or 2 more turns to actually finish the game. Those 1 or 2 more turns can be all it takes for a victory to be snatched from your grasp. I just want Ice Block and all of the uninteractive cards to be rotated to the Hall of Fame.
You're thinking of it wrong, if you run into iceblock the way you describe you don't "have lethal" and you weren't ahead.
It's no different for the outcome than looking down at a druid with 60 health, 60+ stats on board and no answer on hand. Iceblock no more cheats you out of a win than the druid did with his jade idols.
I don't think there's anything wrong in this way of thinking. "Having lethal" simply means you have enough damage on the board to kill someone the following turn. And yes, you can be very far ahead & still lose to the BS that Iceblock helps to promote. I've had matches as Priest where I was still at the maximum 30 HP; had seven minions on board -- including taunt ones to prevent attacks to my hero & really strong buffed ones with Divine Spirit + Inner Fire for lethal and beyond; the Mage is at 1-5 HP with *nothing* on the board.....and then the next two turns I lose to Alexstrasza + spell-burn-to-face cause of Ice Block preventing me from killing him.
Why do people like you have to cry and cry about others wanting the game to change? The problem is that this card has been prevalent in the game pretty much constantly since beta.
So "prevalence" makes a card worthy of "voicing concerns" over? I say BS for the one simple reason...the people whining about the card just don't like the card and like playing against it even less because they lost to that one card's effect one too many times. I don't hear anyone whining about the Bluegill Warrior, Loot Hoarder or Acolyte of Pain or other "prevalent" classic cards that get used often since beta...why? It's because no one has an issue with them. Those cards don't put a player in a win/lose scenario as much as Ice Block does and that's why people are pissing and moaning about Ice Block...they took one too many losses to that card and now have resorted to banding together with other sniveling whiners to get rid of it. And that's why I complained about their whining. I say stop the whining about a card just because that cards effect created a loss for you. Suck it up like the rest of us or go use that card on someone else.
Prevalence over a long enough timeline? Yes, that is worth being concerned about, if you care about the game not becoming stale and boring.
I would like to see the cards you mention, along with a whole lot of other cards, rotate out.
If you want those cards to rotate out as well as others then why even have classic cards at all? Just rotate them all out. The ones that you and others point a finger at like by being "prevalent" should all be removed and the rest no one uses anyway. Then gamers new to HS won't need any of the old classic cards. Blizzard might not be on-board with that even if you and many others don't want to see old cards.
Well, yeah, I think the classic set should rotate.. There does need to be a basic set for new players to make their decks, but these cards should be balanced to a power level where they will rarely appear in high level meta.
If there's a "basic set for new players" that "should be balanced to a power level where they rarely appear at high level" the new players will never reach high level...and they might not play for long with crappy decks that constantly lose to cards that do play at a higher level.
Would you want cards that don't play to a higher level as a new player?
Oh come on, why would you expect cards that are made for the rank 20-25 "learning the game"-meta to be able to take you to high level?
The better question is...why would you expect a new comer to play with cards that he can't succeed with? And I'm not defining success as level 20. Any new-comer should be able to break level 20 every month.
As a ramp druid player I have lost so many games I could of actually won, if it wasn't for ice block. You have lethal on board ow ice block, double fireball well played....... and now they can have more than 2 ice blocks because of that 5 mana give me random cards and that 2 mana card that lets you pick a spell. Get rid of Alekz and Ice block. They got rid of Hand lock because it was a old deck well get rid of freeze mage.
Why do people like you have to cry and cry about others wanting the game to change? The problem is that this card has been prevalent in the game pretty much constantly since beta.
So "prevalence" makes a card worthy of "voicing concerns" over? I say BS for the one simple reason...the people whining about the card just don't like the card and like playing against it even less because they lost to that one card's effect one too many times. I don't hear anyone whining about the Bluegill Warrior, Loot Hoarder or Acolyte of Pain or other "prevalent" classic cards that get used often since beta...why? It's because no one has an issue with them. Those cards don't put a player in a win/lose scenario as much as Ice Block does and that's why people are pissing and moaning about Ice Block...they took one too many losses to that card and now have resorted to banding together with other sniveling whiners to get rid of it. And that's why I complained about their whining. I say stop the whining about a card just because that cards effect created a loss for you. Suck it up like the rest of us or go use that card on someone else.
Prevalence over a long enough timeline? Yes, that is worth being concerned about, if you care about the game not becoming stale and boring.
I would like to see the cards you mention, along with a whole lot of other cards, rotate out.
If you want those cards to rotate out as well as others then why even have classic cards at all? Just rotate them all out. The ones that you and others point a finger at like by being "prevalent" should all be removed and the rest no one uses anyway. Then gamers new to HS won't need any of the old classic cards. Blizzard might not be on-board with that even if you and many others don't want to see old cards.
Well, yeah, I think the classic set should rotate.. There does need to be a basic set for new players to make their decks, but these cards should be balanced to a power level where they will rarely appear in high level meta.
If there's a "basic set for new players" that "should be balanced to a power level where they rarely appear at high level" the new players will never reach high level...and they might not play for long with crappy decks that constantly lose to cards that do play at a higher level.
Would you want cards that don't play to a higher level as a new player?
Oh come on, why would you expect cards that are made for the rank 20-25 "learning the game"-meta to be able to take you to high level?
The better question is...why would you expect a new comer to play with cards that he can't succeed with? And I'm not defining success as level 20. Any new-comer should be able to break level 20 every month.
Of course new players should be able to get competitive cards, but why should it be in the basic set? I agree that it would be a good solution to give newbies free packs of whatever is in standard atm instead of classic packs.
Jeez, why do I even try... THE EFFECT OF ICE BLOCK IS UNINTERACTIVE BECAUSE IT PREVENTS THE PROGRESSION OF THE GAME AND THERE ARE ONLY VERY LIMITED WAYS TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.
Your question is all over the place. With your pointless definition of interaction, is playing around a card interacting with it or not? You do not seem to agree with yourself on this.
How to nullify any damage spell: play a heal effect
How to nullify a destroy spell: play a minion
How to nullify a card draw spell: play a card draw effect
You don't need to stop the effects of other spells in the same way as with ice block, as they actually move the game forward. How can you argue that the "immune" effect is in any way interactive? It literally means that no interaction is possible.
No matter how many times I explain to you that the Earth is actually an oblate spheroid, you still refuse to understand it.
God this is the last message I will reply to you because I'm not willing to waste more brain cells if you don't want to put yours to work.
The Effect of Ice Block does not prevent the progression of the game. The effect of Ice Block does literally nothing else but make the Hero Immune until the end of the turn. It doesn't prevent you from doing anything you want with your minions, the opponent minions, playing whatever spells you want, nothing. It simply makes the Hero Immune for that short amount of time. We have had other cards with this effect before, Gladiator Longbow makes the Hunter Immune during the duration of the attacks, Mal'Ganis makes the Hero Immune while it is in play, not a single turn. You must be funny to play against in Wild format, where I can just drop Mal'Ganis behind a huge wall of taunts as a Handlock and you will say it's uninteractive because I'm immune.
You are granted immunity for X amount of time, it's an effect they added to the game which is fair, as long as it is controlled. If they released a card that simply granted your hero immunity for the rest of the game, with no single condition for that Immunity to stop, THAT would be broken. As it stands, all cards that grant you Immunity have conditions and can be dealt with, as long as you decide to do it. The moment the Immunity is active, you are not capable of affecting that heros (or minion) health. Play around it or nullify it. You have tools to do both.
What you just listed are ways to play around the spells, not to nullify them. To nullify a spell you need to remove the existence of the spell and it's effect from the game. A spell is a card that once cast, has it's effect resolve and the impact will not be nullified. It doesn't have a body on the board that you can destroy, it simply applies one effect. To Nullify the spell you need to destroy the spell and it's effect at moment of casting. That is only possible with Counterspell.
Healing the Damage didn't nullify it, it just minimized it's impact, you still took the damage. Nullifying means not taking that damage to begin with, like with Counterspell.
The other 2 examples you gave both apply the same way, although I have to admit, they lack logic so I even have a hard time understanding how you can believe that you nullify a card draw effect by playing a card draw effect. Your mind must have some really big flaws in the logic department.
So does Ice Block, Ice Block moves the game forward aswell, it grants me immunity until the turn ends, you can do whatever you want in the turn, set yourself up in the best possible position for the next turn, and pass over the turn, next turn you kill me. The Immunity effect is not interactive because it's meant to not be interactive, it's meant to prevent any action from affecting the Immune Target... Do I also need to explain to you what the work Immune means? You can't stop the immune effect ONCE IT HAS BEEN CAST, you can simply stop it from happening. After the Immune effect has been cast, you need to wait until the Immunity effect wears off.
Other spell effects work the same way. If I deal 6 damage to you, there is nothing you can do to remove those 6 damage from having been done, if I Polymorph your minion, there is nothing you can do to return that minion to it's original state. If you want to stop that from happening, you need to counterspell it. With Secrets, you can still destroy them, you don't need to Counterspell them.
What you actually want is to be able to kill an opponent which has been granted the immunity effect, which is simply not possible. So you should just prevent the target from getting Immunity, in the case of Ice Block, just destroy the secret before it takes effect... It's so fucking simple...
I will put you on ignore because I'm having a really hard time explaining things to you without starting to insult your low level of mental faculties, and this is not the space to be throwing insults at each other. Keep on thinking that way, and you will still be raging about this card in 5 years when you realize Blizzard still hasn't changed it at all because the card is perfectly fair, balanced and interactive, they will simply rotate it (If the card was not fair, balanced or interactive, they would nerf it, not rotate it). You can limit your brain to think the way you do as much as you want, it's still not going to change reality or facts, it will all still be in your mind.
Now, have a nice day.
Imagine this scenario. Your opponent is playing a Freeze Mage with 4 cards in his hand with 6 Health, Ice Block up and no board. Those four cards are 1 Fireball, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Ice Block and Alexstrasza. You on the other hand are playing an Evolve Shaman with 25 Health and Thing from Below on your board. In addition, you don't have any burst damage or buff cards in your hand or deck. It's your turn and you play another Thing from Below, fill up your board and roll a taunt totem. You attack face leaving the Mage on 1 Health with a Ice Block up. Your opponent plays Alexstrasza setting your Health to 15. You attack face and trigger Ice Block and trade with Alexstrasza. Your opponent puts down his second Ice Block and Fireballs your face and pings it leaving you dead to Pyroblast lethal next turn. You trigger his second Ice Block and with no choice pass. Your opponent Pyroblasts you for lethal.
Without Ice Block, the Mage wouldn't have been able to get lethal. Ice Block allowed the Mage to stall 2 turns to deliver lethal. The worst part about it is you had no choice but to wait for another 2 turns to deliver lethal but in the end lost because of a card effectively saying gain one more turn. It's uninteractive because you as the Shaman couldn't do anything about the Mage stalling for more time and effectively stopped you from delivering lethal 2 turns earlier. Why do you Conceal was moved to the Hall of Fame? How to you kill a stealthed Gagetzan Auctioneer on turn 6/7. Most of the time no. With the stealth up, Auctioneer could potentially draw 5 or even more cards. Would you consider that to be healthy for the game and interactive? Animated Armour was originally meant to be a neutral card but was instead put as a Mage class card. Why you may ask? Because Animated Armour with Pre nerfed Master of Disguise meant only taking 1 damage to face per attack and not able to clear the permanently stealthed Animated Armour which is uninteractive. I hope you now understand what it means for a card to be uninteractive.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That was topdecked? Nah, it was because I let the Heart of the Cards guide me ;)
Personally I believe Eater of Secrets is enough as a tech counter. Besides, since this card has been one of the Mage class identity, I guess a nerf would be too much for Mage-lovers, and it would destroy so many long-existing decks. Rotating it is kindof not a bad idea, and we can make Standard a more welcoming environment for newly-released cards and decks, while Wild is a more fun environment that welcomes any idea.
Imagine this scenario. Your opponent is playing a Freeze Mage with 4 cards in his hand with 6 Health, Ice Block up and no board. Those four cards are 1 Fireball, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Ice Block and Alexstrasza. You on the other hand are playing an Evolve Shaman with 25 Health and Thing from Below on your board. In addition, you don't have any burst damage or buff cards in your hand or deck. It's your turn and you play another Thing from Below, fill up your board and roll a taunt totem. You attack face leaving the Mage on 1 Health with a Ice Block up. Your opponent plays Alexstrasza setting your Health to 15. You attack face and trigger Ice Block and trade with Alexstrasza. Your opponent puts down his second Ice Block and Fireballs your face and pings it leaving you dead to Pyroblast lethal next turn. You trigger his second Ice Block and with no choice pass. Your opponent Pyroblasts you for lethal.
Without Ice Block, the Mage wouldn't have been able to get lethal. Ice Block allowed the Mage to stall 2 turns to deliver lethal. The worst part about it is you had no choice but to wait for another 2 turns to deliver lethal but in the end lost because of a card effectively saying gain one more turn. It's uninteractive because you as the Shaman couldn't do anything about the Mage stalling for more time and effectively stopped you from delivering lethal 2 turns earlier. Why do you Conceal was moved to the Hall of Fame? How to you kill a stealthed Gagetzan Auctioneer on turn 6/7. Most of the time no. With the stealth up, Auctioneer could potentially draw 5 or even more cards. Would you consider that to be healthy for the game and interactive? Animated Armour was originally meant to be a neutral card but was instead put as a Mage class card. Why you may ask? Because Animated Armour with Pre nerfed Master of Disguise meant only taking 1 damage to face per attack and not able to clear the permanently stealthed Animated Armour which is uninteractive. I hope you now understand what it means for a card to be uninteractive.
It's not uninteractive, the Shaman could have done anything that I posted above. For Ice Block to be uninteractive, you need to remove Eater of Secrets from the game, which removes the possibility to nullify Ice Block, and you also need to make Ice Block read:
"Secret: When your hero takes fatal damage, prevent it and become Immune this turn. At the end of the turn, set your hero to the health amount that he started the turn with."
This would disable all kind of counterplay, it would remove the option to play around Ice Block, since you couldn't just minimize the impact of Ice Block by setting them to 1.
If Ice Block was like this, then yes, it would not be interactive.
Gotta love finding those contradictions. What you are essentially saying is Ice Block is uninteractive if it is as you say "Secret: When your hero takes fatal damage, prevent it and become Immune this turn. At the end of the turn, set your hero to the health amount that he started the turn with." Since the effect of Ice Block is "When your hero takes fatal damage, prevent it and become Immune this turn", your argument holds no water. You still become Immune for the turn. The extra healing makes little to none difference. A heal for 5 damage? Sure, I will deal 5 damage to you next turn with my minions on board. The uninteractive bit of Ice Block is becoming Immune for this turn, not healing for the amount of damage you have taken. The becoming Immune bit encourages uninteractiveness with dying to burst damage from you hand, not from minions on the board which is interactive. I just want Ice Block to be rotated to the Hall of Fame.
As the for Evolve Shaman analogy, you could literally substitute that with any deck. Lets for arguments sake say you where playing a TGT Priest which has various ways of healing such as 4 from hero power and Antique Healbot. You would still die from the burst damage that Old School Freeze Mage had after Alexing you. Bloodmage+2 Fireballs, 2 Frostbolts, 2 Ice Lances and a Pyroblast would still deliver lethal over the course of 2 turns. Ice Block promotes this burst uninteractive behaviour because you can ignore taking lethal damage because of Ice Blocks. My point is even classes with heal will still lose to the burst that Freeze Mage has and you as a Priest can't do anything about it cause of the Immune effect. I feel classes with heal or armour can't survive the burst over two turns, how can other classes deal with it?
In regarding to the tech in an Eater of Secrets argument, it is the nature of the tech card statline that determines whether it see play or not. Eater of Secrets has poor stats. 4 mana 2/4 is one of the worst stats a four drop can have. If it is a 3/4 or 4/4, I will guarantee you that it will see a ton of more play. If you weren't playing against a secret deck, a 4 mana 2/4 is way too slow for a turn 4 play. How does a 2/4 challenge a turn 3 3/3 or 3/4? It doesn't unless you use more mana on turn 5 to cast a spell or use your hero power to clear it. You will forever be losing tempo and playing reactively while your opponent plays proactively, two very different playstyles. If you play arena, playing a 4 mana 2/4 on curve is an almost certain loss with very little to non chance of coming back unless you have multiple ways of clearing the board. The best tech card that I believe that exists is Ooze. A 2 mana 3/2 with battlecry destroy a weapon, really good stats and good effect. Even if you aren't playing against a weapon class, you would still play it as a 2 mana 3/2. Same with the 2 mana 2/3 battlecry destroy a pirate. Even if you aren't facing a pirate warrior, it's still a solid two drop. Those cards still see play because of their statline. In short, cards with poor stats won't see much play. I teched Eater of Secrets for my decks to counter Mage but for too often it's subpar 2/4 statline is a liability in most of my matches against other classes. Sure it counters Ice Block efficiently, but what about the 8 other classes which only 2 have Secrets? In those other non secret classes, Eater would do little to nothing. Blizzard should buff Eater of Secrets to at least a 3/4, preferably a 4/4 or 3/5 so it can see more play.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That was topdecked? Nah, it was because I let the Heart of the Cards guide me ;)
Why do people like you have to cry and cry about others wanting the game to change? The problem is that this card has been prevalent in the game pretty much constantly since beta.
So "prevalence" makes a card worthy of "voicing concerns" over? I say BS for the one simple reason...the people whining about the card just don't like the card and like playing against it even less because they lost to that one card's effect one too many times. I don't hear anyone whining about the Bluegill Warrior, Loot Hoarder or Acolyte of Pain or other "prevalent" classic cards that get used often since beta...why? It's because no one has an issue with them. Those cards don't put a player in a win/lose scenario as much as Ice Block does and that's why people are pissing and moaning about Ice Block...they took one too many losses to that card and now have resorted to banding together with other sniveling whiners to get rid of it. And that's why I complained about their whining. I say stop the whining about a card just because that cards effect created a loss for you. Suck it up like the rest of us or go use that card on someone else.
Prevalence over a long enough timeline? Yes, that is worth being concerned about, if you care about the game not becoming stale and boring.
I would like to see the cards you mention, along with a whole lot of other cards, rotate out.
If you want those cards to rotate out as well as others then why even have classic cards at all? Just rotate them all out. The ones that you and others point a finger at like by being "prevalent" should all be removed and the rest no one uses anyway. Then gamers new to HS won't need any of the old classic cards. Blizzard might not be on-board with that even if you and many others don't want to see old cards.
Well, yeah, I think the classic set should rotate.. There does need to be a basic set for new players to make their decks, but these cards should be balanced to a power level where they will rarely appear in high level meta.
If there's a "basic set for new players" that "should be balanced to a power level where they rarely appear at high level" the new players will never reach high level...and they might not play for long with crappy decks that constantly lose to cards that do play at a higher level.
Would you want cards that don't play to a higher level as a new player?
Oh come on, why would you expect cards that are made for the rank 20-25 "learning the game"-meta to be able to take you to high level?
The better question is...why would you expect a new comer to play with cards that he can't succeed with? And I'm not defining success as level 20. Any new-comer should be able to break level 20 every month.
Of course new players should be able to get competitive cards, but why should it be in the basic set? I
If the basic set didn't contain anything of value, then why have the set of basic cards for new comers why have the basic set at all. If it's just a pile of crap cards...why bother? How would that motivate you t to keep playing when you've been given crappy cards as a new comer and you're only chance of success is to fork over cash?
Ice block is necessary. Should not be removed from standard because it gives mage one more turn to gather guaranteed-win cards. Mage experience is part of the diversity of Hearthstone, and diversity is the reason why Hearthstone is fun.
I say rotate it. It's been a staple of mage decks long enough to HoF it and gives mage something new to work with. I feel like the card by itself enables a lot of long standing archetypes that rely WAY too much on its existence.
I won't say that it's not fun to play against, because it's not like you can't play against it, but I feel like it's been mage's Azure Drake for the past few metas. But I feel like the reason they rely on it is because they suffer becoming like warlock or rogue who seriously buckle under pressure from lack of sustain.
Without the freeze/burn line of gameplay they really don't have a solid win condition aside from the ancient "play big stuff" method, which as we've seen with the lack of elemental mages, isn't really working for them. They need more deck archetypes or tools to enable something other than a super lategame combo like quest or freeze. Even secret mage relies on iceblock because their draw RNG can completely screw them.
Not saying to bring flamewaker bullshit back, but they need something.
I say rotate it. It's been a staple of mage decks long enough to HoF it and gives mage something new to work with. I feel like the card by itself enables a lot of long standing archetypes that rely WAY too much on its existence.
I won't say that it's not fun to play against, because it's not like you can't play against it, but I feel like it's been mage's Azure Drake for the past few metas. But I feel like the reason they rely on it is because they suffer becoming like warlock or rogue who seriously buckle under pressure from lack of sustain.
Without the freeze/burn line of gameplay they really don't have a solid win condition aside from the ancient "play big stuff" method, which as we've seen with the lack of elemental mages, isn't really working for them. They need more deck archetypes or tools to enable something other than a super lategame combo like quest or freeze. Even secret mage relies on iceblock because their draw RNG can completely screw them.
Not saying to bring flamewaker bullshit back, but they need something.
Actually no, it hasn't been a staple of mage decks. It's been a staple of freeze mage, which has been a rare sight the last 2 expansions. Only in this meta has it made it's way into other decks because control mage and secret mage has gotten competitive. Reno mage has been semi-viable and pushed into good in wild now.
So that is a wrongful claim. If you compare it something like innervate, ice block has actually been a rather rare card for it's class on ladder in HS history.
The most common mage decks in the past has been tempo-mage / mech mage... neither of which has any use for ice-block.
And half this thread is whining for people who claim ice-block cheats them out of a win when they had lethal. They. Didn't. Have. Lethal. If the majority of the discussion can't even get beyond that very basic fact, most of it has no merit.
I say rotate it. It's been a staple of mage decks long enough to HoF it and gives mage something new to work with. I feel like the card by itself enables a lot of long standing archetypes that rely WAY too much on its existence.
I won't say that it's not fun to play against, because it's not like you can't play against it, but I feel like it's been mage's Azure Drake for the past few metas. But I feel like the reason they rely on it is because they suffer becoming like warlock or rogue who seriously buckle under pressure from lack of sustain.
Without the freeze/burn line of gameplay they really don't have a solid win condition aside from the ancient "play big stuff" method, which as we've seen with the lack of elemental mages, isn't really working for them. They need more deck archetypes or tools to enable something other than a super lategame combo like quest or freeze. Even secret mage relies on iceblock because their draw RNG can completely screw them.
Not saying to bring flamewaker bullshit back, but they need something.
Actually no, it hasn't been a staple of mage decks. It's been a staple of freeze mage, which has been a rare sight the last 2 expansions. Only in this meta has it made it's way into other decks because control mage and secret mage has gotten competitive. Reno mage has been semi-viable and pushed into good in wild now.
So that is a wrongful claim. If you compare it something like innervate, ice block has actually been a rather rare card for it's class on ladder in HS history.
The most common mage decks in the past has been tempo-mage / mech mage... neither of which has any use for ice-block.
And half this thread is whining for people who claim ice-block cheats them out of a win when they had lethal. They. Didn't. Have. Lethal. If the majority of the discussion can't even get beyond that very basic fact, most of it has no merit.
I'm not here to join in the circle jerk of OMFG ITS BRKN PLZ FX. You can relax...there's no need. I'm a standard player and don't really play mage, so I'll concede I don't know every minutiae about them and their matchups.
But the fact that freeze mage as an archetype has been one of the longest standing decks BECAUSE of this card is more what I'm getting at. It could be argued that alex is the backbone in addition to this, but I think that ice block enables the deck moreso than alex does if you potentially have a free turn to ignore your own defense and lob everything you got at their face per ice block you play.
Both mech and waker mage were tempo decks - something that hasn't graced mage in standard in a long time. In fact, since GvG and waker rotated afaik - they weren't usually included because they didn't need it when they could just kill you by turn 7 or so. It was more of a tech card against decks that had burn from hand like overload shaman. Since that rotation, whenever mage has risen to prevalence it's been with iceblock - even when reno mage was decent it was included.
My desire to rotate it doesn't stem from the stance that it's broken, but that it stymies deck innovation in the class when freeze mage *currently* is the benchmark to beat for mage. If elemental, dragon or n'zoth mage take off with the coming expansion I'll be glad to eat my words. But I picture that quest and freeze will still largely remain in the picture.
Ice block is fine in wild because there are more counters there like loatheb.
But in standard it's just too annoying . Unless you have eater of secrets in your deck the mage is going to have a powerful extra turn and there is nothing you can do to mess with it .
On a side note, the few times I encountered Rogues using Conceal (back when it was available), the primary issue was never stand-alone high-value cards such as Arcane Giant that could obliterate my hero's face regardless of whether they were concealed or not, it was usually a really buffed Edwin VanCleef or Questing Adventurer. Rogues spent a lot of low-cost cards to buff those two to really big numbers, so obviously they don't want my Priest to simply Shadow Word: Death, Mind Control, or (since it hadn't been rotated out yet) Entomb it, hence the need to Conceal it to make it untargetable. So in that sense, Dispel Magic is a very good counter in those situations, as it doesn't just remove the Conceal, it removes all the buffs.
Also, I know Blizzard doesn't remove the concealed minions; it doesn't usually need to. The two damage from Blizzard, followed by the four damage from the Turn 7 Flamestrike, will usually do that. If not, just follow up with another Blizzard or Frost Nova. Or again, Doomsayer on the board after you've frozen it. (After all, all the Mage has to do is survive another round or two with her Ice Blocks before using Alexstrasza to knock one's opponent down to 15 HP & then burn their face with two Fireballs & a Frostbolt on Turn 10...)
I would love to see Ice Block deleted from the game, it's the epitome of non interactive cards in Hearthstone and facilitates even more non interactive decks. Blizzard should be able to design "smarter" cards for Mage sustainability than "nah na nah na nah na, you can't kill me." I could do it in right now, like; Secret, 3 mana - whenever a character attacks your Hero, Freeze all enemy characters. At least then you'd still be able to do damage with Charge, Spells and Hero Powers to end the game.
Imagine this scenario. Your opponent is playing a Freeze Mage with 4 cards in his hand with 6 Health, Ice Block up and no board. Those four cards are 1 Fireball, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Ice Block and Alexstrasza. You on the other hand are playing an Evolve Shaman with 25 Health and Thing from Below on your board. In addition, you don't have any burst damage or buff cards in your hand or deck. It's your turn and you play another Thing from Below, fill up your board and roll a taunt totem. You attack face leaving the Mage on 1 Health with a Ice Block up. Your opponent plays Alexstrasza setting your Health to 15. You attack face and trigger Ice Block and trade with Alexstrasza. Your opponent puts down his second Ice Block and Fireballs your face and pings it leaving you dead to Pyroblast lethal next turn. You trigger his second Ice Block and with no choice pass. Your opponent Pyroblasts you for lethal.
Without Ice Block, the Mage wouldn't have been able to get lethal. Ice Block allowed the Mage to stall 2 turns to deliver lethal. The worst part about it is you had no choice but to wait for another 2 turns to deliver lethal but in the end lost because of a card effectively saying gain one more turn. It's uninteractive because you as the Shaman couldn't do anything about the Mage stalling for more time and effectively stopped you from delivering lethal 2 turns earlier. Why do you Conceal was moved to the Hall of Fame? How to you kill a stealthed Gagetzan Auctioneer on turn 6/7. Most of the time no. With the stealth up, Auctioneer could potentially draw 5 or even more cards. Would you consider that to be healthy for the game and interactive? Animated Armour was originally meant to be a neutral card but was instead put as a Mage class card. Why you may ask? Because Animated Armour with Pre nerfed Master of Disguise meant only taking 1 damage to face per attack and not able to clear the permanently stealthed Animated Armour which is uninteractive. I hope you now understand what it means for a card to be uninteractive.
That was topdecked? Nah, it was because I let the Heart of the Cards guide me ;)
Personally I believe Eater of Secrets is enough as a tech counter. Besides, since this card has been one of the Mage class identity, I guess a nerf would be too much for Mage-lovers, and it would destroy so many long-existing decks. Rotating it is kindof not a bad idea, and we can make Standard a more welcoming environment for newly-released cards and decks, while Wild is a more fun environment that welcomes any idea.
Gotta love finding those contradictions. What you are essentially saying is Ice Block is uninteractive if it is as you say "Secret: When your hero takes fatal damage, prevent it and become Immune this turn. At the end of the turn, set your hero to the health amount that he started the turn with." Since the effect of Ice Block is "When your hero takes fatal damage, prevent it and become Immune this turn", your argument holds no water. You still become Immune for the turn. The extra healing makes little to none difference. A heal for 5 damage? Sure, I will deal 5 damage to you next turn with my minions on board. The uninteractive bit of Ice Block is becoming Immune for this turn, not healing for the amount of damage you have taken. The becoming Immune bit encourages uninteractiveness with dying to burst damage from you hand, not from minions on the board which is interactive. I just want Ice Block to be rotated to the Hall of Fame.
As the for Evolve Shaman analogy, you could literally substitute that with any deck. Lets for arguments sake say you where playing a TGT Priest which has various ways of healing such as 4 from hero power and Antique Healbot. You would still die from the burst damage that Old School Freeze Mage had after Alexing you. Bloodmage+2 Fireballs, 2 Frostbolts, 2 Ice Lances and a Pyroblast would still deliver lethal over the course of 2 turns. Ice Block promotes this burst uninteractive behaviour because you can ignore taking lethal damage because of Ice Blocks. My point is even classes with heal will still lose to the burst that Freeze Mage has and you as a Priest can't do anything about it cause of the Immune effect. I feel classes with heal or armour can't survive the burst over two turns, how can other classes deal with it?
In regarding to the tech in an Eater of Secrets argument, it is the nature of the tech card statline that determines whether it see play or not. Eater of Secrets has poor stats. 4 mana 2/4 is one of the worst stats a four drop can have. If it is a 3/4 or 4/4, I will guarantee you that it will see a ton of more play. If you weren't playing against a secret deck, a 4 mana 2/4 is way too slow for a turn 4 play. How does a 2/4 challenge a turn 3 3/3 or 3/4? It doesn't unless you use more mana on turn 5 to cast a spell or use your hero power to clear it. You will forever be losing tempo and playing reactively while your opponent plays proactively, two very different playstyles. If you play arena, playing a 4 mana 2/4 on curve is an almost certain loss with very little to non chance of coming back unless you have multiple ways of clearing the board. The best tech card that I believe that exists is Ooze. A 2 mana 3/2 with battlecry destroy a weapon, really good stats and good effect. Even if you aren't playing against a weapon class, you would still play it as a 2 mana 3/2. Same with the 2 mana 2/3 battlecry destroy a pirate. Even if you aren't facing a pirate warrior, it's still a solid two drop. Those cards still see play because of their statline. In short, cards with poor stats won't see much play. I teched Eater of Secrets for my decks to counter Mage but for too often it's subpar 2/4 statline is a liability in most of my matches against other classes. Sure it counters Ice Block efficiently, but what about the 8 other classes which only 2 have Secrets? In those other non secret classes, Eater would do little to nothing. Blizzard should buff Eater of Secrets to at least a 3/4, preferably a 4/4 or 3/5 so it can see more play.
That was topdecked? Nah, it was because I let the Heart of the Cards guide me ;)
Ice block is necessary. Should not be removed from standard because it gives mage one more turn to gather guaranteed-win cards. Mage experience is part of the diversity of Hearthstone, and diversity is the reason why Hearthstone is fun.
Hearthstone is fun to play
I say rotate it. It's been a staple of mage decks long enough to HoF it and gives mage something new to work with. I feel like the card by itself enables a lot of long standing archetypes that rely WAY too much on its existence.
I won't say that it's not fun to play against, because it's not like you can't play against it, but I feel like it's been mage's Azure Drake for the past few metas. But I feel like the reason they rely on it is because they suffer becoming like warlock or rogue who seriously buckle under pressure from lack of sustain.
Without the freeze/burn line of gameplay they really don't have a solid win condition aside from the ancient "play big stuff" method, which as we've seen with the lack of elemental mages, isn't really working for them. They need more deck archetypes or tools to enable something other than a super lategame combo like quest or freeze. Even secret mage relies on iceblock because their draw RNG can completely screw them.
Not saying to bring flamewaker bullshit back, but they need something.
Ice block is fine in wild because there are more counters there like loatheb.
But in standard it's just too annoying . Unless you have eater of secrets in your deck the mage is going to have a powerful extra turn and there is nothing you can do to mess with it .
Eater of Secrets works wonders for me.