6) You (like me) are in the TINY minority who STILL attempt to muck about with various decks. It is getting extremely disheartening though.
It is possible that you just can't see when your opponent is "mucking about." Even an experimental deck can look very similar to a cookie-cutter popular deck if certain key cards are never drawn. Indeed, the vast majority of innovation happens by increments rather than by throwing out everything we know to be successful and trying to reinvent the wheel with every experiment. But after enough small mutations, the end result can sometimes turn out to look very different from the original inspiration.
Sorry bro, but changing 2-6 cards around in a 30 card deck does NOT constitute a "different deck" to me. Example at hand:
Every single mage deck at the moment is running: 2x Book, 2x Mana Wyrm, 2x Arcanologist, 4-6 secrets, 2x fireball, 2x frostbolt, 2x Arcane Intellect etc etc etc. That does not constitute "different decks". If over 20 cards are the same, it's not a different deck, merely another version of the same deck.
Wanna hear 2 completely different decks? Pirate Warrior VS Control Warrior. Cards in common? Fiery War Axe. That's pretty much it. THOSE are 2 different decks. Not the shit you're describing.
Yes, it can be debated, but the difference between tempo- and patron warrior can also be as little as 10 cards, but it can still change the win condition and play style a lot. A Fireball can be mainly removal, mainly burn or 50/50, depending on the deck it is in, overlapping cards do not mean that much.
As for the nerf, I think it is good. Not because it is OP, but it is boring, keeps a lot of more interresting decks unplayable, and forces out aggro to counter it.
Time to buff the other quests? Druid, mage, paladin, warlock and hunter are all awful! They clearly miscalculated the disadvantage of losing 1 card and spending 1 mana on nothing at the start of the game. Making some of them draw a card is another possible solution.
In DataReaper it is currently sitting at tier 2 and if it stays there by win rate then this nerf hasn't changed anything for control decks.
I'm implying that the entire nature of the deck will have to change - it cannot rely on turn 5 Caverns into turn 6 (or later) 20+ burst damage, because it will need to replace stuff like Stonetusk with more bounces. Since a vanilla 5/5 for cheap will probably not be good enough on turn 7+, it will have to make use of cards that generate some other kind of value. The deck will not be a "complete the quest and win the game" deck anymore.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
For sure there are new cards coming that could have broke the quest, if not nerfed. No reason to at least wait for next meta before nerfing, like they always did. Similar toxic cards like Jade Idol has also been left untouched.
There is no rational argument against Jade Idol.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
FINALLY! And the nerf isn't big enough. 5 minions, make em 4/4's. Now THAT would make it balanced.
Before you start saying "L2P against the deck", I've been Legend, and regulary do get Legend whenever I set my sights on it. Problem? I enjoy slow decks. And guess what this deck does?
Just as Blizz said, it DESTROYED control decks in TWO ways. 1) by its own nature, 2) by promoting so many aggro decks the game became unplayable. I should not be queueing up for an afternoon of HS and face 80% aggro and the rest Q rogue. A "Balanced and Diverse meta" is NOT the Meta where you queue up against - Pirate Warrior, token druid, token shaman, murloc paladin, hunter or whatever cancerous bullshit people decide to play. This is not diversity. This is simply aggro. Wanna know what a "Balanced and Diverse meta" is? 25% control, 25% midrange, 25% aggro 25% combo. THAT, is balanced. Seeing 10 different aggro decks is NOT balanced OR Diverse. They all try to finish the game by turn 5. Does it really matter if it's Pirates, murlocs, or Bloodlusted Totems that are killing you? Ofc not. It's the same shit with a different skin.
Guess what Q rogue did? It was a popular deck which auto-lost to aggro. What does that mean for aggro players? WIN/WIN/WIN! They either get to queue up against a deck they automatically win against, (1st win) or they queue up in a mirror match (2nd win, fast match), or they manage to queue up to the random control player who they also destroy (3rd win).
What does this do to people like me, who enjoy slower decks? It fucking depressed me, that's what it did. I have never been more pissed off at HS since I started playing when it was released. Auto-concede against rogue as soon as they play the Q (miracle is fine, at least it takes some brains) simply cause I refused to put myself through that ordeal.
I miss the days when Chillwind Yeti was the best thing you could play on turn 4.
You actually confirmed, that QR is not the problem, but aggro decks which destroy QR and control at the same time (and combo).
Yes, aggro decks are the problem, for our un-fun un-diverse meta. But quest rogue was a) another deck which, as a control/slower player is simply disgusting to play against and b) increased the amount of aggro decks. Hence, by reducing Q rogue, you allow slower decks to shine, and also reduce the amount of people who play aggro, since they can now play their slower decks and not get demolished by Q-rogue.
Wanna hear a fun fact?
Whenever I play (note, this includes both winning and losing) against a cancer deck (in this context, cancer is defined as Q rogue or any deck that tries to finish the game by turns 4/5/6), I always add my opponent after the game, regardless of outcome. I add them to simply, politely ask them why they are playing the deck they are.
The results of this survey? About a quarter just troll me and tell me to "git gud", so fuck those retards. A quarter tells me they just want to hit X rank, and this Y cancer deck is the best to do so. Another quarter tells me that they are newer players, and want to play slower decks but cannot afford them. The last quarter tells me they never play aggro decks, they just got sick & tired of losing against cancer so in order to have some fighting chance they switched to cancer, and I was just the unlucky guy who queued up against them.
Guess which answer is missing? The one that says "I ACTUALLY ENJOY PLAYING THIS DECK". The times people have told me "I actually really like playing Y deck" are countable on the fingers of ONE hand. That, is a problem. Noone is playing this game to enjoy themselves anymore. I have 9,800+ wins casual/ranked and 8800+ wins in Arena - I do not care if I win or lose, this is not salt. I've hit Legend and won enough times to not care about a game's outcome, but a game's...game. I want to enjoy the game by playing the cards in my deck and having to put thought into playing around, reading my opponent's hands etc. This does not happen when you're dead by turn 5.
I pulled a Golden N'zoth from a pack during WOTOG, and I simply CANNOT play him in Standard because of all the cancer. I do play him in my new-and-improved Wild No-Quest Control Warrior, and I can assure you all, Wild is getting better and better. So many sets are out that 90% of Wild decks have close to 0 RNG in them.
THAT, is the key problem in this game. People set goals and don't play for fun, they play for results. In a card game. Online. With no tangible rewards or tangible cards, unless you're a pro or streamer. Seriously people, get a grip.
If you really added every player that played a "cancer deck" by your definition, I really don't know why you're still playing HS. Honestly, all you did was go on peoples nerves, just because you didn't like the deck they were playing...... and then you call them retards? Come on, wtf?!
Go on people's nerves? Wtf are you on about? I simply asked them, politely, why they play the deck they are playing. Done. Nothing more, nothing less. It was an attempt to see WHY people decide to play the decks that, on the forums, EVERYONE seems to hate. This is bad why exactly?
Read the entirety of the post. Me collecting data is "getting on people's nerves"? The fact practically NOONE answers "because I really enjoy this deck" proves my point - people play for results, not fun, even if what they are playing is boring/annoying/not their style. In a GAME.
Lol, you seem to be the salt impersonated mate. Calm down adding someone and ask "why do you play this deck". Sound's more like you just want to roast the player. Also, you answering in such a "salty-tone" and proceeding to rant about aggro just tilts you. Chill the fuck down and stop hating aggro decks, just because you dislike the archtype. Quest Rogue is/was a T2/3 deck, the nerf is harsh and will kill the deck
For sure there are new cards coming that could have broke the quest, if not nerfed. No reason to at least wait for next meta before nerfing, like they always did. Similar toxic cards like Jade Idol has also been left untouched.
There is no rational argument against Jade Idol.
There is the same argument that has been made now for Caverns Below: it beats control 100% of the time and forces the meta to react.
The difference between Jade Idol and The Caverns Below is the speed with which they beat the control deck. It takes Jade Druid much more (when compared to Quest Rogue) to beat the control deck. With the control decks of today, which are more proactive, you have a much better chance against Jade Druid then against Quest Rogue.
I am also noticing a lot of hypocrites in this thread, talking about how Jade Druid is the filthy control killer deck, while defending the Rogue Quest, which is much more frustrating since you could start losing as early as turn 5, whereas the Druid takes much longer to kill you. On top of that this deck beats Jade Druid as well, quite effectively. If you complained about Jade Druid ever you have no right to defend Quest Rogue now, so please stop. Quest Rogue is much more limiting than Jade Druid for control decks and I think that Jade Druid was introduced to force control decks to have proactive win condition vs the traditional fatigue plan of Control Warrior.
There actually is. Deck with infinite cards is broken by itself, not mentioning these cards are 1 mana 10/10+ and with so many drawing tools it is just as sick as Rogue Quest. Maybe slightly less. But both cards are in category "Biggest design failures in Hearthstone history"
Explain how infinite cards makes a deck broken. In what way is it "sick"?
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
There actually is. Deck with infinite cards is broken by itself, not mentioning these cards are 1 mana 10/10+ and with so many drawing tools it is just as sick as Rogue Quest. Maybe slightly less. But both cards are in category "Biggest design failures in Hearthstone history"
Hey you can keep your 1 mana 10/10s, which you need to play a long game to get too, while I will be playing my 1 mana 5/5 chargers from turn 6 bouncing them and going face with them and then we'll see how sick the two archetypes are, comparatively speaking. Jade Druid forces control decks to have a strong proactive win condition, whereas Rogue makes it almost impossible to win.
I think this nerf is bad and unecessary, but the most funny thing is how people were talking poorly of Caverns Below back in Un'Goro's spoilers.
It will keep praying on slower decks, while getting even more punished by aggro decks. We could say they simply killed the single scenario where Quest Rogue players needed to use their brain, which was against aggro.
In DataReaper it is currently sitting at tier 2 and if it stays there by win rate then this nerf hasn't changed anything for control decks.
I'm implying that the entire nature of the deck will have to change - it cannot rely on turn 5 Caverns into turn 6 (or later) 20+ burst damage, because it will need to replace stuff like Stonetusk with more bounces. Since a vanilla 5/5 for cheap will probably not be good enough on turn 7+, it will have to make use of cards that generate some other kind of value. The deck will not be a "complete the quest and win the game" deck anymore.
For sure, it will have to change but to compete as midrange deck it will have to find a way to fit in minions that can exceed the 5/5 stat line such as the Finja water package murlocs or become a dragon deck with the remaining 4 cost Drake's in standard that buff themselves by the amount of cards in your hand. Adding more bounce isn't possible, the current lists already run double Shadowstep, ferryman, and brewmaster. Diluting the deck further for even more bounce outside of Vanish likely wouldn't be worth it. A back up or new primary win condition is likely necessary after this Nerf. Will be interested to see what people come up with.
Sorry bro, but changing 2-6 cards around in a 30 card deck does NOT constitute a "different deck" to me. Example at hand:
Every single mage deck at the moment is running: 2x Book, 2x Mana Wyrm, 2x Arcanologist, 4-6 secrets, 2x fireball, 2x frostbolt, 2x Arcane Intellect etc etc etc. That does not constitute "different decks". If over 20 cards are the same, it's not a different deck, merely another version of the same deck.
Wanna hear 2 completely different decks? Pirate Warrior VS Control Warrior. Cards in common? Fiery War Axe. That's pretty much it. THOSE are 2 different decks. Not the shit you're describing.
My Quest Rogue was substantially different from the one that was most popular when Un'goro first came out. There's no way you could call it a different archetype (which is actually what you mean when you cite Pirate Warrior and Control Warrior), but it was definitely a different deck. And I did create it without any help.
But go ahead and lash out at everyone who tries to help you hate the game less. It's bound to make you feel better.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
FINALLY! And the nerf isn't big enough. 5 minions, make em 4/4's. Now THAT would make it balanced.
Before you start saying "L2P against the deck", I've been Legend, and regulary do get Legend whenever I set my sights on it. Problem? I enjoy slow decks. And guess what this deck does?
Just as Blizz said, it DESTROYED control decks in TWO ways. 1) by its own nature, 2) by promoting so many aggro decks the game became unplayable. I should not be queueing up for an afternoon of HS and face 80% aggro and the rest Q rogue. A "Balanced and Diverse meta" is NOT the Meta where you queue up against - Pirate Warrior, token druid, token shaman, murloc paladin, hunter or whatever cancerous bullshit people decide to play. This is not diversity. This is simply aggro. Wanna know what a "Balanced and Diverse meta" is? 25% control, 25% midrange, 25% aggro 25% combo. THAT, is balanced. Seeing 10 different aggro decks is NOT balanced OR Diverse. They all try to finish the game by turn 5. Does it really matter if it's Pirates, murlocs, or Bloodlusted Totems that are killing you? Ofc not. It's the same shit with a different skin.
Guess what Q rogue did? It was a popular deck which auto-lost to aggro. What does that mean for aggro players? WIN/WIN/WIN! They either get to queue up against a deck they automatically win against, (1st win) or they queue up in a mirror match (2nd win, fast match), or they manage to queue up to the random control player who they also destroy (3rd win).
What does this do to people like me, who enjoy slower decks? It fucking depressed me, that's what it did. I have never been more pissed off at HS since I started playing when it was released. Auto-concede against rogue as soon as they play the Q (miracle is fine, at least it takes some brains) simply cause I refused to put myself through that ordeal.
I miss the days when Chillwind Yeti was the best thing you could play on turn 4.
You actually confirmed, that QR is not the problem, but aggro decks which destroy QR and control at the same time (and combo).
Yes, aggro decks are the problem, for our un-fun un-diverse meta. But quest rogue was a) another deck which, as a control/slower player is simply disgusting to play against and b) increased the amount of aggro decks. Hence, by reducing Q rogue, you allow slower decks to shine, and also reduce the amount of people who play aggro, since they can now play their slower decks and not get demolished by Q-rogue.
Wanna hear a fun fact?
Whenever I play (note, this includes both winning and losing) against a cancer deck (in this context, cancer is defined as Q rogue or any deck that tries to finish the game by turns 4/5/6), I always add my opponent after the game, regardless of outcome. I add them to simply, politely ask them why they are playing the deck they are.
The results of this survey? About a quarter just troll me and tell me to "git gud", so fuck those retards. A quarter tells me they just want to hit X rank, and this Y cancer deck is the best to do so. Another quarter tells me that they are newer players, and want to play slower decks but cannot afford them. The last quarter tells me they never play aggro decks, they just got sick & tired of losing against cancer so in order to have some fighting chance they switched to cancer, and I was just the unlucky guy who queued up against them.
Guess which answer is missing? The one that says "I ACTUALLY ENJOY PLAYING THIS DECK". The times people have told me "I actually really like playing Y deck" are countable on the fingers of ONE hand. That, is a problem. Noone is playing this game to enjoy themselves anymore. I have 9,800+ wins casual/ranked and 8800+ wins in Arena - I do not care if I win or lose, this is not salt. I've hit Legend and won enough times to not care about a game's outcome, but a game's...game. I want to enjoy the game by playing the cards in my deck and having to put thought into playing around, reading my opponent's hands etc. This does not happen when you're dead by turn 5.
I pulled a Golden N'zoth from a pack during WOTOG, and I simply CANNOT play him in Standard because of all the cancer. I do play him in my new-and-improved Wild No-Quest Control Warrior, and I can assure you all, Wild is getting better and better. So many sets are out that 90% of Wild decks have close to 0 RNG in them.
THAT, is the key problem in this game. People set goals and don't play for fun, they play for results. In a card game. Online. With no tangible rewards or tangible cards, unless you're a pro or streamer. Seriously people, get a grip.
If you really added every player that played a "cancer deck" by your definition, I really don't know why you're still playing HS. Honestly, all you did was go on peoples nerves, just because you didn't like the deck they were playing...... and then you call them retards? Come on, wtf?!
Go on people's nerves? Wtf are you on about? I simply asked them, politely, why they play the deck they are playing. Done. Nothing more, nothing less. It was an attempt to see WHY people decide to play the decks that, on the forums, EVERYONE seems to hate. This is bad why exactly?
Read the entirety of the post. Me collecting data is "getting on people's nerves"? The fact practically NOONE answers "because I really enjoy this deck" proves my point - people play for results, not fun, even if what they are playing is boring/annoying/not their style. In a GAME.
Lol, you seem to be the salt impersonated mate. Calm down adding someone and ask "why do you play this deck". Sound's more like you just want to roast the player. Also, you answering in such a "salty-tone" and proceeding to rant about aggro just tilts you. Chill the fuck down and stop hating aggro decks, just because you dislike the archtype. Quest Rogue is/was a T2/3 deck, the nerf is harsh and will kill the deck
You are seriously pulling stuff out of your ass man, really. Again - do you feel offended when someone asks you "why are you playing X deck?" If so, why? Wanna know why I love slow decks? Because they give room for gameplay. The game isn't over by turn 5. I can actually resolve my cards that cost more than 6 mana. I can see my N'zoth hit the board, I can play around/bait a Brawl, I can calculate my opponent's theoretical lethal judging by the reads I made during the game.
It's not about disliking the archetype, it's the fact that aggro is simply broken in HS. 1-drops are so ridiculously overpowered that they trade with 2drops. That's the equivalent of a 4drop trading into an 8drop (as Kripp put it, and I totally agree) because the 1drop costs 50% of the 2drops mana. It's just so polarizing that it makes the game disgusting.
Let me guess - you're a lifelong aggro player who gets annoyed when people shit on this bullshit version of aggro that is now available in HS. Believe it or not, proper aggro was oldschool face hunter. Win the early game in turns 1,2 and 3, then as steam runs out you finish the game by turn 7-8 using Hero Power and extra points of dmg from here and there (leper gnome's Deathrattle, an extra Hound going face after a UTH etc). It was never as polarizing as it is today. ONE healbot back in the day, and if the Hunter wasn't good, he was dead. If he hadn't saved up burst to play around a potential Healbot, he lost the game, just like he was supposed to.
And no, I don't roast players. I ask the simple question - why do you play the deck you play. I already answered why -I- play the decks I play, and I didn't feel offended or annoyed while answering that question. Another poster also answered that question, earlier in this thread. Why do you see that question as an insult?
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Level 60: All classes Golden Classes: Druid, Mage, Shaman, Paladin, Warrior Highest rank: Legend, 52 (EU, obviously) Best arena: 12-0
And a 1 mana 5/5 Charge that can be bounced back and played two or three times is not fun.
But against Control it will be still the same ...
Except it's not, the more time you give control the more opportunity they have to play the midrange beatdown role, even tho' Quest Rogue and Jade Druid have an easy mode vs control you still have windows to take the board and push for a win. Also if total win rate for the deck goes down vs aggro even further then there's less of an incentive to play the deck at all, it's not like the Pirates or Merlock matchup is unwinnable for Quest Rogue considering they can tech for one or the other. Anyone can build a deck that destroys control by just top loading their deck with value at the cost of weakening their aggro match up, there is no reason for Quest Rogue to exist at all and the Quests were probably the worst idea/design the game has seen since Secrets.
In DataReaper it is currently sitting at tier 2 and if it stays there by win rate then this nerf hasn't changed anything for control decks.
I'm implying that the entire nature of the deck will have to change - it cannot rely on turn 5 Caverns into turn 6 (or later) 20+ burst damage, because it will need to replace stuff like Stonetusk with more bounces. Since a vanilla 5/5 for cheap will probably not be good enough on turn 7+, it will have to make use of cards that generate some other kind of value. The deck will not be a "complete the quest and win the game" deck anymore.
For sure, it will have to change but to compete as midrange deck it will have to find a way to fit in minions that can exceed the 5/5 stat line such as the Finja water package murlocs or become a dragon deck with the remaining 4 cost Drake's in standard that buff themselves by the amount of cards in your hand. Adding more bounce isn't possible, the current lists already run double Shadowstep, ferryman, and brewmaster. Diluting the deck further for even more bounce outside of Vanish likely wouldn't be worth it. A back up or new primary win condition is likely necessary after this Nerf. Will be interested to see what people come up with.
You could also use Crystal Core defensively, to 'heal' your minions back to 5 health.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
For sure, it will have to change but to compete as midrange deck it will have to find a way to fit in minions that can exceed the 5/5 stat line such as the Finja water package murlocs or become a dragon deck with the remaining 4 cost Drake's in standard that buff themselves by the amount of cards in your hand. Adding more bounce isn't possible, the current lists already run double Shadowstep, ferryman, and brewmaster. Diluting the deck further for even more bounce outside of Vanish likely wouldn't be worth it. A back up or new primary win condition is likely necessary after this Nerf. Will be interested to see what people come up with.
You could also use Crystal Core defensively, to 'heal' your minions back to 5 health.
Next expansion will contain another bounce card or another way to complete the quest.
Making the quest needing 5 minions instead of 4 will slowdown the quest for sure (probably enough to push quest rogue out of ladder), but a bif problem of quest rogue can be getting a hand full of minion and waiting to topdeck the last bounce. Having another way to bounce the minion or play a copy would reduce the number of minion with charge card possible to stick in the deck while increasing consistency and and still slowing the deck (even if you have the card to bounce you still need to have the mana)
Really hope that the case, even if I don't play the deck myself the idea and play style was really interesting
As someone who is forever salty about Quest Rouge, I appreciate the effort in nerfing this, although I feel as if it is still too strong. Especially when compared to some of the other quest rewards.
But if they were to change it too much, it wouldn't even be the same quest anymore, I suppose.
As someone who is forever salty about Quest Rouge, I appreciate the effort in nerfing this, although I feel as if it is still too strong. Especially when compared to some of the other quest rewards.
But if they were to change it too much, it wouldn't even be the same quest anymore, I suppose.
Quest rogue will probably almost disappear from ladder after the nerf. Not that deck will completely destroyed but currently the aggro match up are already very difficult and completing the quest before dying is an ordeal. After the nerf quest rogue will probably be considered as a free win by most aggressive decks
You will only have some aficionado who will still play the quest on ladder (like their is still crazy people playing warlock nowadays) but the deck will probably only be used as a counter to control line up deck in tournaments.
Tier 2 in which tier system? By what criteria?
In DataReaper it is currently sitting at tier 2 and if it stays there by win rate then this nerf hasn't changed anything for control decks.
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Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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I think this nerf is bad and unecessary, but the most funny thing is how people were talking poorly of Caverns Below back in Un'Goro's spoilers.
It will keep praying on slower decks, while getting even more punished by aggro decks. We could say they simply killed the single scenario where Quest Rogue players needed to use their brain, which was against aggro.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Level 60: All classes
Golden Classes: Druid, Mage, Shaman, Paladin, Warrior
Highest rank: Legend, 52 (EU, obviously)
Best arena: 12-0
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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You know what I think is coming ?
Next expansion will contain another bounce card or another way to complete the quest.
Making the quest needing 5 minions instead of 4 will slowdown the quest for sure (probably enough to push quest rogue out of ladder), but a bif problem of quest rogue can be getting a hand full of minion and waiting to topdeck the last bounce. Having another way to bounce the minion or play a copy would reduce the number of minion with charge card possible to stick in the deck while increasing consistency and and still slowing the deck (even if you have the card to bounce you still need to have the mana)
Really hope that the case, even if I don't play the deck myself the idea and play style was really interesting
Blizzard has wanted a Bounce archetype to exist for awhile now, so there is a chance they'll do something more for it in the future.
As someone who is forever salty about Quest Rouge, I appreciate the effort in nerfing this, although I feel as if it is still too strong. Especially when compared to some of the other quest rewards.
But if they were to change it too much, it wouldn't even be the same quest anymore, I suppose.
Yeah, we're gonna see some new bounce stuff probably, which is cool, might introduce some slower QR types or a different archetype.