Good to see they are taking action with this card, even if its taken the best part of three months. Also, I guess the "play 5" makes more sense too as it now has symmetry with 5/5's and the 5 mana cost of Crystal Core once completed.
I guess you're confusing "making sense" with aesthetic symmetry. Not sure why though, you can't seriously think that any kind of logic would suggest that symmetry means balanced cards.
I still don't understand at all why people think it was "about time" to nerf the quest. The numbers clearly shows that the deck isn't OP, it isn't even the best deck. So that leaves us with "I just don't like it". Well, that shouldn't be a valid reason for nerfing anything. And I'm saying this as someone that actually dislikes playing the deck and find it tedious to face.
Besides I don't think the nerf was that harsh, you can still probably make a decent deck of QR, if anything this will only delay the win condition by a card or two while also allowing for more opportunity for counter-play (since you have more time to draw and use cards like Dirty Rat or to pressure your opponent's life total).
This is what I find paradoxical about this nerf. Regardless of why it was nerfed ('overpowered' vs 'frustration' vs 'future design space'), if all this changes for Control is that they draw one or two more cards, what did it really accomplish? This nerf looks like it would do more to help Aggro than it does Control and Aggro doesn't need help.
Well it will still be a weaker deck and it will have fewer favorable matchups. One or two turns are a big deal against aggro or midrange and that will start to discourage players from running Quest Rogue, which will lead to fewer inevitable matchups for Control decks.
I also guess the aggro quest rogue deck is done for good, but I still see a small chance that some skilled deckbuilder might come up with a midrange build that loses harder to aggro, but keeps the good matchups (although that will be a difficult Task since the bounce effects are anti tempo which is the core of many Rogue decks).
I still hope to see something fun and interesting come out of this archetype, but what incentive is there for making something that loses harder to aggro when aggro is the dominant archetype on the ladder?
I still don't understand at all why people think it was "about time" to nerf the quest. The numbers clearly shows that the deck isn't OP, it isn't even the best deck. So that leaves us with "I just don't like it". Well, that shouldn't be a valid reason for nerfing anything. And I'm saying this as someone that actually dislikes playing the deck and find it tedious to face.
I mean the reason for the nerf is probably included in your own comment. People find the deck frustrating, its not about winrate at all, its about how frustrated it makes you feel playing against it. You might not find this to be a valid reason, but Blizzard has shown in the past that they will go to great lengths to alleviate the frustration of the playerbase (even if some of their changes haven't been that effective).
I have played against Quest Rogue many times and even after they have completed their quest they still handily have some bounce effects left such as vanish, shadowstep, Gadgetzan ferryman, Youthful Brewmaster or even getting an extra copy of those bounce effects through mimic pod. However that being said it will slow down the deck a bit because requiring one more minion to bounce can actually be a big deal because you now may need to use more than just two types of the bounce effects. It will still be possible to complete the quest by turn 5 even with the extra requirement thanks to Fire Fly and Igneous Elemental producing flame elementals.
Even though it does slow down the deck a bit, just like with the small time buccaneer nerf to pirate warriors, the players will probably just adapt to it and still produce a deck which is still efficient. Plus it does make sense making the quest require 5 minions of the same in order to make your minions 5/5's.
What is weird though is that I have found the miracle rogue deck with gadgetzan auctioneer to be much more effective than quest rogue and quest rogue is no longer a top deck in the meta because people got used to playing it. A reason why it was so effective early on was because the quest was regarded as the most awful in the initial reviews of the set and ended up taking everybody completely by surprise by turning out to be one of the most easiest quests to complete when players actually tested the cards.
So even though I do agree with the change, it is actually not one of the top decks in the meta plus every single deck out there can be frustrating to play against since all of the most competitive decks in the meta have something which is unfair about them and unfun to play against. I mean every deck can be unfun to play against because they are trying to beat you and make it as difficult as possible for you to beat them.
And because the quest kills control decks, then why not nerf Jade Druid which is also not a top meta deck but also destroys control decks?
I still don't understand at all why people think it was "about time" to nerf the quest. The numbers clearly shows that the deck isn't OP, it isn't even the best deck. So that leaves us with "I just don't like it". Well, that shouldn't be a valid reason for nerfing anything. And I'm saying this as someone that actually dislikes playing the deck and find it tedious to face.
I mean the reason for the nerf is probably included in your own comment. People find the deck frustrating, its not about winrate at all, its about how frustrated it makes you feel playing against it. You might not find this to be a valid reason, but Blizzard has shown in the past that they will go to great lengths to alleviate the frustration of the playerbase (even if some of their changes haven't been that effective).
please point out that "playerbase" in those cases means: players between rank 25 and 18. no competitive player ever complained about q rogue!
Well it will still be a weaker deck and it will have fewer favorable matchups. One or two turns are a big deal against aggro or midrange and that will start to discourage players from running Quest Rogue, which will lead to fewer inevitable matchups for Control decks.
Sounds a lot like trickle-down economics. Still pretty bitter for Rogue players though, as Blizzard always seems to be taking things away from Rogue. Rogue isn't even the most played class right now, it is currently 5th, right in the middle but with only two major archetypes, perhaps just one if Crystal Rogue isn't viable after this nerf. N'zoth and Water Rogue disappeared with the standard rotation, but maybe those will come back with the next expansion so we will have viable alternatives to Miracle again.
I also guess the aggro quest rogue deck is done for good, but I still see a small chance that some skilled deckbuilder might come up with a midrange build that loses harder to aggro, but keeps the good matchups (although that will be a difficult Task since the bounce effects are anti tempo which is the core of many Rogue decks).
I still hope to see something fun and interesting come out of this archetype, but what incentive is there for making something that loses harder to aggro when aggro is the dominant archetype on the ladder?
Probably none. But if the presence of Quest Rogue in the meta declines and the use of some anti aggro decks rise, you might not have to Play so many aggro decks as you have to now (since they can reliably beat the present form of QR). It depends how the meta shapes after the nerf. And how reliable QR can bounce/play a minion 5 times.
An interesting nerf - it slows down the deck a bit, because you need to find that extra combo piece.
I think that it actually does little to make the deck worse against control match-ups - yeah the deck will probably go down in winrates, but I don't think it will go down that much. However this nerf makes the deck even worse than it is against aggro - now it's basically an auto-concede in every case. But the deck was already very bad against aggro and still players wanted to play with it.
That might mean that the deck will drop in its winrate, but will continue to be popular. Do note that people play stuff like Pirate Warrior or some zerg decks because they deliver fast games. While the win rate of many control decks is similar to their aggro counterparts, players lean towards the faster decks and Combo Rogue is a fast deck.
fuck that! he is not competitive player in HS , does not compete in tournaments or open cups and do not grind for high legend finish. he is a streamer of this game playing greedy control shit exclusively and nothing more, this is not about MTG here so what ?
fuck that! he is not competitive player in HS , does not compete in tournaments or open cups and do not grind for high legend finish. he is a streamer of this game playing greedy control shit exclusively and nothing more, this is not about MTG here so what ?
U have to realize this game is not focused on the top 1%.
dontbemad: no competitive player ever complained about q rogue!
Brian Kibler whined about the questrogue too:
Maybe they nerfed it, because of him and the other whiners. XD
Kibler's argument was that it creates a largely negative experience for some people on the ladder and that the repetitive play patterns it creates are not really fun or interactive for either party. Nerfing Crystal Rogue wasn't something he argued for.
Kibler's states at 15:55 in that video that his purpose in making it was to illustrate the various issues surrounding the card and that he hoped that we would have a better understanding of them and take something away other than "Nerf Quest Rogue! Quest Rogue is too good!" and goes on to say that "Nerf Quest Rogue is not my argument." I think that is a bit different than whining about it and I thought he did a fairly good and objective job at looking at the issues from multiple angles.
I still don't understand at all why people think it was "about time" to nerf the quest. The numbers clearly shows that the deck isn't OP, it isn't even the best deck. So that leaves us with "I just don't like it". Well, that shouldn't be a valid reason for nerfing anything. And I'm saying this as someone that actually dislikes playing the deck and find it tedious to face.
I mean the reason for the nerf is probably included in your own comment. People find the deck frustrating, its not about winrate at all, its about how frustrated it makes you feel playing against it. You might not find this to be a valid reason, but Blizzard has shown in the past that they will go to great lengths to alleviate the frustration of the playerbase (even if some of their changes haven't been that effective).
please point out that "playerbase" in those cases means: players between rank 25 and 18. no competitive player ever complained about q rogue!
Ok dude have it your way. I myself am an above rank 18 player and to be honest I don't like playing against QR so I am glad they addressed this while not completely destroying the quest. Also competitive players such as yourself (the top 300 and what not), consist of a tiny amount of the playerbase, less than 0.5% so the devs shouldn't cater as much to your elite caste. First and foremost consider that HS is a game for the more casual player, if you're so hardcore go play Gwent or something. Besides as a competitive player the loss of one deck you like should hardly make a difference to you, with all of your skill. Also consider that complaining about something and being frustrated by it are two entirely different things. I never complained about QR, but I did find it frustrating and the nerf will definitely improve my playing experience.
you still don't get it right ? of course I don't mind to loose quest rogue but I obviously mind about blizz destroying a healthy and enjoyable meta game because the playerbase is crying about something which never needed a nerf just because they don't understand the game and how to play it. I am really mad about this point, hands down since I had to grind in stale and horrible meta games all those months before un goro, hope you can understand it from my point of view.
WraithM: Kibler's argument was that it creates a largely negative experience for some people on the ladder
But this negative experience comes from more decks, not only Questrogue.
That is something I could certainly agree with, though that isn't why I wanted to clarify his arguments. It just seems everyone assumes Kibler wanted it nerfed when that isn't what he said. Saying you don't like something or find it boring isn't the same as wanting it nerfed. If anything I think he argued for a balance adjustment if one was deemed necessary but admitted it wasn't clear what the best course of action was, which I thought was a nice objective viewpoint to wrap the video up with.
I still don't understand at all why people think it was "about time" to nerf the quest. The numbers clearly shows that the deck isn't OP, it isn't even the best deck. So that leaves us with "I just don't like it". Well, that shouldn't be a valid reason for nerfing anything. And I'm saying this as someone that actually dislikes playing the deck and find it tedious to face.
I mean the reason for the nerf is probably included in your own comment. People find the deck frustrating, its not about winrate at all, its about how frustrated it makes you feel playing against it. You might not find this to be a valid reason, but Blizzard has shown in the past that they will go to great lengths to alleviate the frustration of the playerbase (even if some of their changes haven't been that effective).
please point out that "playerbase" in those cases means: players between rank 25 and 18. no competitive player ever complained about q rogue!
Oh you can be sure there are comepetitive players who are happy about that nerf . It's hard for me to believe that Frank or anybody else just quit HS because of the QR nerf . Cmon...
Also i respect your achievements in HS, but to underline your statements with pointing out in every second comment how good you are ( and noobish everyone else) makes you only look mad.
you still don't get it right ? of course I don't mind to loose quest rogue but I obviously mind about blizz destroying a healthy and enjoyable meta game because the playerbase is crying about something which never needed a nerf just because they don't understand the game and how to play it. I am really mad about this point, hands down since I had to grind in stale and horrible meta games all those months before un goro, hope you can understand it from my point of view.
Are you seriously trying to say that one of the most accomplished CCG players and a CCG designer doesn't have a valid point? I'm sorry, but who are you again and why should anyone listen to your opinion? All of the TKO vs Control archetypes need to be nerfed into the ground, they're the definition of uninteractive gameplay and degenerate design. Now we can play control decks without 2xDirty Rat and praying for the RNG to give us a chance, there are so many decks that can come into the light now that Quest Rogue doesn't force a concede anymore.
you still don't get it right ? of course I don't mind to loose quest rogue but I obviously mind about blizz destroying a healthy and enjoyable meta game because the playerbase is crying about something which never needed a nerf just because they don't understand the game and how to play it. I am really mad about this point, hands down since I had to grind in stale and horrible meta games all those months before un goro, hope you can understand it from my point of view.
Are you seriously trying to say that one of the most accomplished CCG players and a CCG designer doesn't have a valid point? I'm sorry, but who are you again and why should anyone listen to your opinion? All of the TKO vs Control archetypes need to be nerfed into the ground, they're the definition of uninteractive gameplay and degenerate design. Now we can play control decks without 2xDirty Rat and praying for the RNG to give us a chance, there are so many decks that can come into the light now that Quest Rogue doesn't force a concede anymore.
check my twitter if you want to know.
now you can concede vs jade druid instead of q rogue so what ? <snip>
The whiners gor their way again . What a surprise !
Shame on you , all the people who care only about your own fun (that has to last like half an hour) while any fun combo must be destroyed.
Why adapt to meta when you can simply call Blizzard and delete the opponent's fun from the game .
One day many people will realise how stupid this is and quit for good .
I'm not even a quest player but I enjoyed smacking their face with murlocs and pirates and now there will come those stupid concede decks again with only heals and board clears and I'm gonna be sad .
Most people don't want / can't afford to send half an hour on a single card game .
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I don't think it is really needed at this moment. Maybe it's in preparation of some cards in the next expansion.
I have played against Quest Rogue many times and even after they have completed their quest they still handily have some bounce effects left such as vanish, shadowstep, Gadgetzan ferryman, Youthful Brewmaster or even getting an extra copy of those bounce effects through mimic pod. However that being said it will slow down the deck a bit because requiring one more minion to bounce can actually be a big deal because you now may need to use more than just two types of the bounce effects. It will still be possible to complete the quest by turn 5 even with the extra requirement thanks to Fire Fly and Igneous Elemental producing flame elementals.
Even though it does slow down the deck a bit, just like with the small time buccaneer nerf to pirate warriors, the players will probably just adapt to it and still produce a deck which is still efficient. Plus it does make sense making the quest require 5 minions of the same in order to make your minions 5/5's.
What is weird though is that I have found the miracle rogue deck with gadgetzan auctioneer to be much more effective than quest rogue and quest rogue is no longer a top deck in the meta because people got used to playing it. A reason why it was so effective early on was because the quest was regarded as the most awful in the initial reviews of the set and ended up taking everybody completely by surprise by turning out to be one of the most easiest quests to complete when players actually tested the cards.
So even though I do agree with the change, it is actually not one of the top decks in the meta plus every single deck out there can be frustrating to play against since all of the most competitive decks in the meta have something which is unfair about them and unfun to play against. I mean every deck can be unfun to play against because they are trying to beat you and make it as difficult as possible for you to beat them.
And because the quest kills control decks, then why not nerf Jade Druid which is also not a top meta deck but also destroys control decks?
An interesting nerf - it slows down the deck a bit, because you need to find that extra combo piece.
I think that it actually does little to make the deck worse against control match-ups - yeah the deck will probably go down in winrates, but I don't think it will go down that much. However this nerf makes the deck even worse than it is against aggro - now it's basically an auto-concede in every case. But the deck was already very bad against aggro and still players wanted to play with it.
That might mean that the deck will drop in its winrate, but will continue to be popular. Do note that people play stuff like Pirate Warrior or some zerg decks because they deliver fast games. While the win rate of many control decks is similar to their aggro counterparts, players lean towards the faster decks and Combo Rogue is a fast deck.
fuck that! he is not competitive player in HS , does not compete in tournaments or open cups and do not grind for high legend finish. he is a streamer of this game playing greedy control shit exclusively and nothing more, this is not about MTG here so what ?
you still don't get it right ? of course I don't mind to loose quest rogue but I obviously mind about blizz destroying a healthy and enjoyable meta game because the playerbase is crying about something which never needed a nerf just because they don't understand the game and how to play it. I am really mad about this point, hands down since I had to grind in stale and horrible meta games all those months before un goro, hope you can understand it from my point of view.
The whiners gor their way again . What a surprise !
Shame on you , all the people who care only about your own fun (that has to last like half an hour) while any fun combo must be destroyed.
Why adapt to meta when you can simply call Blizzard and delete the opponent's fun from the game .
One day many people will realise how stupid this is and quit for good .
I'm not even a quest player but I enjoyed smacking their face with murlocs and pirates and now there will come those stupid concede decks again with only heals and board clears and I'm gonna be sad .
Most people don't want / can't afford to send half an hour on a single card game .