Like for minions, you can tell a 3 mana 3 4 is good, compare to a 3 mana 4 2 for example.
But how about Weapons and Spells, how can you rate it? value it? How can you compare one with weapon with another and tell whether which one is better? Is there a math formula that you can bring them down to the same level and rate them? Like a 3 mana weapon, and a 7 mana weapon when bring down to the same level, you can say which one is better.
Same for spells, to distinguish which spell is better to include, let's just say in term of damage and removal.
For spells, 1 mana is worth 1,5 damage or 3 heal (extra heal if it doesn't do anything that gives you card advantage). Card draw is worth 1,5 mana and 1 AoE damage is worth 2 mana. Destroying a minion is ~4-5 mana. Symmetrical effects are 1/3-1/2 cheaper. Random target makes the spell 1/3-2/3 cheaper.
I don't think even developers know what the mathematical formulas are supposed to be for weapons. It seems somewhat accurate that x-mana weapons are 3/x and 1 attack is worth ~1,5 durability.
Formulas don't really work out in practice since all classes value cards differently, due to synergies with other cards, plus it's very rare to have a straight up vanilla weapon. Weapons are for example less valuable in Rogue because they have no healing and a weapon hero power, while they're insane in Warrior because of armor gain. There is no point in valuing cards in isolation because that's not how they will be used.
Take a card like Execute, how do you rate it in isolation? It would be absolute trash in a class like Priest, but beyond broken in Mage.
Weapons can be valued just like minions by multiplying their Attack with their Durability. Fiery War Axe for example has 3x2 stats so 6 stats total, which is equal to a class 2-drop (neutral = 5 stats, class cards get +1 bonus). Thats why Fiery War Axe will never be nerfed, because it is balanced in terms of stats.
It can't be that simple; Light's Justice never sees play even though by this metric its the equivalent of Enchanted Raven. Eaglehorn Bow should never be played, since it only provides 6 stats and costs 3. Even if the bow's ability activates once or twice, that shouldn't be good enough.
Weapons allow your hero to use their health as a resource, and is typically used to preserve other resources in control decks or used as delayed direct damage spells in aggressive decks. For example, Fiery War Axe will often kill a 2-cost minion and either kill or delay another minion in control-style decks or act as a 2 mana fireball in aggressive playstyles.
If a weapon is used aggressively, you usually want it to deliver its payload quickly. That means having a strong attack and low durability. If it's used defensively, it should have enough attack to kill its target. It's durability matters more here, but only if the attack is sufficient. The only time high durability is of higher value is if you have ways to increase the weapon's attack (like Southsea Squidface) or possibly if the weapon does something interesting with its durability besides attacking (a la Sword of Justice or Atiesh)
A weapon is worth what a vanilla minion with its attack would have + 1 mana, + 1 mana for each durability above 2. This means that pretty much every weapon in the game is over statted.
A spell is worth what it's worth, or worth what it's worth + 5 if it's a Mage spell.
Exactly. While Light's Justice is one of the very few weapons to pass the vanilla test, it's never seen constructed play and I doubt it sees much arena play either. The weapon has full stats but never sees play because it doesn't accomplish anything. Whereas Eaglehorn Bow has between 6-12 stats, depending on how many charges it's gained. The creature vanilla test says it needs to be worth 12 8 points every game but it still sees play even in decks without secrets. That was my point.
Look through the list of weapons. Even in best case scenarios, few weapons have the stats to pass your test. Gorehowl? 7 points (granted, its ability means that it has up to 28 stats if you hit a minion each turn, meaning it easily passes, but nobody really uses this that many times). Arcanite Reaper scores 10 points and almost passes the test--it's off by 2 points. Interestingly, Assassin's Bladedoes pass. Yet, Reaper sees a lot more play. Doomhammer passes your test, but it's rarely played since Rockbiter Weapon got nerfed. Death's Bite, Truesilver Champion, Glaivezooka, and Jade Claws all fail.
So, your test throws a lot of false negatives and a few false positives compared to what people actually play (or played if the card is now wild). I'm not saying that your test is entirely without merit. I'm just saying it's more complicated than that. How can you devise a test for things like Coghammer or Powermace? Both of those abilities are roughly worth 2 mana in comparison to similar buff cards (see Hand of Protection, Ancestral Healing and Demonfire), but these cards are good, rather than completely bonkers. Or Piranha Launcher, which gives you 4 1/1 minions, which is worth something like 2.5 mana plus 8 points which would translate to 3 mana in your test.
edit: Every time I mention "your" test, I'm talking about Boethian's test of multiplying the attack power by the number of weapon charges compared to adding the attack plus the defense of a minion with no abilities and adding 1.
Exactly. While Light's Justice is one of the very few weapons to pass the vanilla test, it's never seen constructed play and I doubt it sees much arena play either. The weapon has full stats but never sees play because it doesn't accomplish anything. Whereas Eaglehorn Bow has between 6-12 stats, depending on how many charges it's gained. The creature vanilla test says it needs to be worth 12 8 points every game but it still sees play even in decks without secrets. That was my point.
Look through the list of weapons. Even in best case scenarios, few weapons have the stats to pass your test. Gorehowl? 7 points (granted, its ability means that it has up to 28 stats if you hit a minion each turn, meaning it easily passes, but nobody really uses this that many times). Arcanite Reaper scores 10 points and almost passes the test--it's off by 2 points. Interestingly, Assassin's Bladedoes pass. Yet, Reaper sees a lot more play. Doomhammer passes your test, but it's rarely played since Rockbiter got nerfed. Death's Bite, [Truesilver Champion[/card], Glaivezooka, and Jade Claws all fail.
So, your test throws a lot of false negatives and a few false positives compared to what people actually play (or played if the card is now wild). I'm not saying that your test is entirely without merit. I'm just saying it's more complicated than that. How can you devise a test for things like Coghammer or Powermace? Both of those abilities are roughly worth 2 mana in comparison to similar buff cards (see Hand of Protection, Ancestral Healing and Demonfire), but these cards are good, rather than completely bonkers. Or Piranha Launcher, which gives you 4 1/1 minions, which is worth something like 2.5 mana plus 8 points which would translate to 3 mana in your test.
edit: Every time I mention "your" test, I'm talking about Boethian's test of multiplying the attack power by the number of weapon charges compared to adding the attack plus the defense of a minion with no abilities and adding 1.
Death's Bite, Truesilver Champion, Glaivezooka and Jade Claws pass when you count the abilities. Taunt and Divine Shield are worth 1 mana (both examples are underpowered so they'd suggest they are worth more than that, but those keywords synergize well with each other). Powermace's ability is worth only 1 mana because it's a deathrattle. Piranhas are delayed so they are worth a lot less, you wouldn't play a 5 mana 4/4 that summons a 1/1 at the start of next four turns.
But I still agree that the test doesn't work because it fails especially at low attack/high durability weapons by overrating them.
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Like for minions, you can tell a 3 mana 3 4 is good, compare to a 3 mana 4 2 for example.
But how about Weapons and Spells, how can you rate it? value it? How can you compare one with weapon with another and tell whether which one is better? Is there a math formula that you can bring them down to the same level and rate them? Like a 3 mana weapon, and a 7 mana weapon when bring down to the same level, you can say which one is better.
Same for spells, to distinguish which spell is better to include, let's just say in term of damage and removal.
For spells, 1 mana is worth 1,5 damage or 3 heal (extra heal if it doesn't do anything that gives you card advantage). Card draw is worth 1,5 mana and 1 AoE damage is worth 2 mana. Destroying a minion is ~4-5 mana. Symmetrical effects are 1/3-1/2 cheaper. Random target makes the spell 1/3-2/3 cheaper.
I don't think even developers know what the mathematical formulas are supposed to be for weapons. It seems somewhat accurate that x-mana weapons are 3/x and 1 attack is worth ~1,5 durability.
Formulas don't really work out in practice since all classes value cards differently, due to synergies with other cards, plus it's very rare to have a straight up vanilla weapon. Weapons are for example less valuable in Rogue because they have no healing and a weapon hero power, while they're insane in Warrior because of armor gain. There is no point in valuing cards in isolation because that's not how they will be used.
Take a card like Execute, how do you rate it in isolation? It would be absolute trash in a class like Priest, but beyond broken in Mage.
It can't be that simple; Light's Justice never sees play even though by this metric its the equivalent of Enchanted Raven. Eaglehorn Bow should never be played, since it only provides 6 stats and costs 3. Even if the bow's ability activates once or twice, that shouldn't be good enough.
Weapons allow your hero to use their health as a resource, and is typically used to preserve other resources in control decks or used as delayed direct damage spells in aggressive decks. For example, Fiery War Axe will often kill a 2-cost minion and either kill or delay another minion in control-style decks or act as a 2 mana fireball in aggressive playstyles.A weapon is worth what a vanilla minion with its attack would have + 1 mana, + 1 mana for each durability above 2. This means that pretty much every weapon in the game is over statted.
A spell is worth what it's worth, or worth what it's worth + 5 if it's a Mage spell.
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Exactly. While Light's Justice is one of the very few weapons to pass the vanilla test, it's never seen constructed play and I doubt it sees much arena play either. The weapon has full stats but never sees play because it doesn't accomplish anything. Whereas Eaglehorn Bow has between 6-12 stats, depending on how many charges it's gained. The creature vanilla test says it needs to be worth
128 points every game but it still sees play even in decks without secrets. That was my point.Look through the list of weapons. Even in best case scenarios, few weapons have the stats to pass your test. Gorehowl? 7 points (granted, its ability means that it has up to 28 stats if you hit a minion each turn, meaning it easily passes, but nobody really uses this that many times). Arcanite Reaper scores 10 points and almost passes the test--it's off by 2 points. Interestingly, Assassin's Blade does pass. Yet, Reaper sees a lot more play. Doomhammer passes your test, but it's rarely played since Rockbiter Weapon got nerfed. Death's Bite, Truesilver Champion, Glaivezooka, and Jade Claws all fail.
So, your test throws a lot of false negatives and a few false positives compared to what people actually play (or played if the card is now wild). I'm not saying that your test is entirely without merit. I'm just saying it's more complicated than that. How can you devise a test for things like Coghammer or Powermace? Both of those abilities are roughly worth 2 mana in comparison to similar buff cards (see Hand of Protection, Ancestral Healing and Demonfire), but these cards are good, rather than completely bonkers. Or Piranha Launcher, which gives you 4 1/1 minions, which is worth something like 2.5 mana plus 8 points which would translate to 3 mana in your test.
edit: Every time I mention "your" test, I'm talking about Boethian's test of multiplying the attack power by the number of weapon charges compared to adding the attack plus the defense of a minion with no abilities and adding 1.
An X mana weapon should be able to remove 2X mana worth of minions.
Fiery War Axe removes 4 mana worth of bodies, Truesilver removes 8, Gorehowl removes 14 mana, etc.
This is the dirty estimate for whether or not a weapon is good.
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