Quest Rogue exist for a reason. It heavily punish some types of decks and it's very vulnerable to others. Secret Mage has 100% win-ratio against Quest Rogue. You can deny completing his quest with secrets, and if he is careful enough to play around your threats he will lose all his tempo and you will live long enough to destroy him.
Control Paladin has probably 100% win ratio too, but with mage I won against dozens of rogues, and Control Pally in current meta is a new deck for me, so not enough sample size to be sure. Anyway Paladin will out value Rogue in later game, and his debuffs work well. Rogue quest sets minions 5/5 only when they are summoned. Also Vanish has almost no value against Control paladin, since it's power mostly comes from various battlecries.
Every weak new decks emerge, and meta becomes more stable and more midrange'y or even control. There's very little space for powerful but unbalanced decks anymore, and tech cards are crushing those. We already see some 7-9 mana minion at play, and meta could slow down so much, that even Ysera will be seen.
Quest Rogue on average beats Control Paladin 58.44% of the time according to DataReaper, with Midrange and Murloc Paladins fairing better against it.
One problem with Vanish is the milling aspect. It should temporarily increase the opponent's hand size so that no cards get milled, destroyed or burnt.
Developing new cards to counter QR will be tough. A spell that hit 5 attack minions like Shadow Word: Death already exists, but I doubt a neutral crab with a similar ability would be made because such a card would adversely affect all 5 attack minions played by any class, making decks like Jungle Druid that much harder to play. Priest already has Lightbomb in Wild, so I don't think we'll see a reprint of that.
I was joking about that part. I wanted to "predict" what the devs would have done, when trying to fix this issue. Just like with the pirate one back in gadgetzan, they gave us a crab. And the spell part too - the joke was, that they will give us a narrowed answer to a previous problem.
Now more importantly your statement.
Kovachut, if the Crystal Core didn't give you a tempo / value swing then Quest Rogue would be unplayable. Completing the quest is a form of tempo loss because you are undeveloping your board by bouncing minions. This is why QR decks struggle versus aggro, which is curving out as fast as possible by flooding the board. If Rogue had better board clears in general they could afford to play slower as a class, but they don't.
Yes, I understand, that the quest reward is compensating for their tempo loss. However I don't think that pace is a healthy one - like with the PW example there is a moment, when they make such a swing, that is impossible for the opposing player to recover. Aggro decks don't have that problem (against QR), they try to finish off the opponent as fast as possible. But any other deck, that can't generate enough pressure will struggle to lose its board due to cheap 5/5s, which make favourable trades with the more costly minions. This or the vanish part, where the opposing player has to yet again establish their board, while the rogue can very easily spam 1 mana minions.
My statement above was to point out, that the scales go abruptly in QR's favour, when completing the quest. And this is the part I'm not OK with. Just like with the jade mechanic - at one point you can't handle the beefy minions, only this time this moment comes a lot sooner. Turn 5/6/7 is not that late! For an aggro deck maybe, but for the normal decks absolutely not.
I guess I didn't get the joke, though if we see a fives crab in the future that would be tremendously stupid. Pirates and Murlocs are at least water themed, though if the lore text said something about H5O and NaCL I could almost see it happening. Maybe next April Fools Day.
Yes, I understand, that the quest reward is compensating for their tempo loss. However I don't think that pace is a healthy one - like with the PW example there is a moment, when they make such a swing, that is impossible for the opposing player to recover. Aggro decks don't have that problem (against QR), they try to finish off the opponent as fast as possible. But any other deck, that can't generate enough pressure will struggle to lose its board due to cheap 5/5s, which make favourable trades with the more costly minions. This or the vanish part, where the opposing player has to yet again establish their board, while the rogue can very easily spam 1 mana minions. My statement above was to point out, that the scales go abruptly in QR's favour, when completing the quest. And this is the part I'm not OK with. Just like with the jade mechanic - at one point you can't handle the beefy minions, only this time this moment comes a lot sooner. Turn 5/6/7 is not that late! For an aggro deck maybe, but for the normal decks absolutely not.
The swing has to be strong enough though or the risk of losing before the pay off wouldn't be worth the reward and no one would play it. Statistically Quest Rogue is balanced around 50% win rate or less. Less polarized match ups would be nice, but if changes are made to benefit control decks against QR without also buffs for QR against aggro, then the net win rate will go down on both ends for QR. Make the quest take longer to complete? Aggro will wreck QR even harder. Make the stats weaker? Then QR might as well just play aggro without the quest. Making it an non-interacting non-targetable minion like the Warlock Quest reward is probably the most reasonable change I've heard someone mention.
Problem with Rogue overall and quest too is 2 cards...PREPARATION AND BACKSTAB...nothing else...if quest is a portal that open is a way to balance him someway and not be a spell that can prep...
Preparation and Shadowstep are core cards to Rogues identity as a class. Backstab is just tempo removal and is one of the few (imo good) anti aggro cards Rogue has. I could accept the Crystal Core being a portal like minion instead of a spell.
and the more improtant to remind in rogue players...rogue is playble and top tier deck in most seasons from beta...with miracle oil miracle and now miracle and quest...gg balance class
I don't think Rogue players need any reminder that the only archetype they have had for a long time has been Miracle. After the nerfs to Blade Flurry Oil Rogue doesn't exist anymore, even in Wild. Two 'viable' archetypes for a class isn't a whole lot of diversity, though that is better than what Warlocks got this expansion.
I play predominantly priest these days and took Lyra/dragon to legend last season to preface my skill level.
That said I encounter 15 straight quest rogues today on ladder around r5-7...
I noted on reviewing gameplay the main tactic to winning is build your board up and out value. However, vanish instantly reduces your position and usually allows the rogue to play 2-5 minions pending if it was prepped into a instant lose situation.
If you chose to play around vanish and not board flood you'll end up being out valued on board.
Of the matches I played I won 6 lost 9. Of the 6 I won vanish was not played, one game even had a T3 completion.
I am wondering what others think of vanish and it's interaction in quest rogue and if it may actually be what makes the deck so strong Vs midrange and control.
I guess I didn't get the joke, though if we see a fives crab in the future that would be tremendously stupid. Pirates and Murlocs are at least water themed, though if the lore text said something about H5O and NaCL I could almost see it happening. Maybe next April Fools Day.
Yes, I understand, that the quest reward is compensating for their tempo loss. However I don't think that pace is a healthy one - like with the PW example there is a moment, when they make such a swing, that is impossible for the opposing player to recover. Aggro decks don't have that problem (against QR), they try to finish off the opponent as fast as possible. But any other deck, that can't generate enough pressure will struggle to lose its board due to cheap 5/5s, which make favourable trades with the more costly minions. This or the vanish part, where the opposing player has to yet again establish their board, while the rogue can very easily spam 1 mana minions. My statement above was to point out, that the scales go abruptly in QR's favour, when completing the quest. And this is the part I'm not OK with. Just like with the jade mechanic - at one point you can't handle the beefy minions, only this time this moment comes a lot sooner. Turn 5/6/7 is not that late! For an aggro deck maybe, but for the normal decks absolutely not.
The swing has to be strong enough though or the risk of losing before the pay off wouldn't be worth the reward and no one would play it. Statistically Quest Rogue is balanced around 50% win rate or less. Less polarized match ups would be nice, but if changes are made to benefit control decks against QR without also buffs for QR against aggro, then the net win rate will go down on both ends for QR. Make the quest take longer to complete? Aggro will wreck QR even harder. Make the stats weaker? Then QR might as well just play aggro without the quest. Making it an non-interacting non-targetable minion like the Warlock Quest reward is probably the most reasonable change I've heard someone mention.
Problem with Rogue overall and quest too is 2 cards...PREPARATION AND BACKSTAB...nothing else...if quest is a portal that open is a way to balance him someway and not be a spell that can prep...
Preparation and Shadowstep are core cards to Rogues identity as a class. Backstab is just tempo removal and is one of the few (imo good) anti aggro cards Rogue has. I could accept the Crystal Core being a portal like minion instead of a spell.
and the more improtant to remind in rogue players...rogue is playble and top tier deck in most seasons from beta...with miracle oil miracle and now miracle and quest...gg balance class
I don't think Rogue players need any reminder that the only archetype they have had for a long time has been Miracle. After the nerfs to Blade Flurry Oil Rogue doesn't exist anymore, even in Wild. Two 'viable' archetypes for a class isn't a whole lot of diversity, though that is better than what Warlocks got this expansion.
It seems prep is the uber enable of this deck. T3-4 vanish or t4-5 quest activator... But does quest rogue become unplayable without prep?
From a control standpoint prep vanish allows the rogue to wipe your board, potentially mill you, the opponent, and have mana left over for 3+ cheap 5/5s to fill their board.
If it were straight vanish or straight quest it would give opponents a lot more breathing room to respond?
Also, if prep is the enabling offender you'd be killing the current maricle rogue as well as balancing quest rogue at the same time if it received any changes.
The meta is overall really accessible right now, but as mentioned t1-2 decks are being tuned. I feel with quest rogues access to cheap tools it will continually get stronger as it counters more and more classes effectively. It's hard though for any class to tech straight against it unless you go full agro, but Ying and Yang meta.
I guess I didn't get the joke, though if we see a fives crab in the future that would be tremendously stupid. Pirates and Murlocs are at least water themed, though if the lore text said something about H5O and NaCL I could almost see it happening. Maybe next April Fools Day.
Yes, I understand, that the quest reward is compensating for their tempo loss. However I don't think that pace is a healthy one - like with the PW example there is a moment, when they make such a swing, that is impossible for the opposing player to recover. Aggro decks don't have that problem (against QR), they try to finish off the opponent as fast as possible. But any other deck, that can't generate enough pressure will struggle to lose its board due to cheap 5/5s, which make favourable trades with the more costly minions. This or the vanish part, where the opposing player has to yet again establish their board, while the rogue can very easily spam 1 mana minions. My statement above was to point out, that the scales go abruptly in QR's favour, when completing the quest. And this is the part I'm not OK with. Just like with the jade mechanic - at one point you can't handle the beefy minions, only this time this moment comes a lot sooner. Turn 5/6/7 is not that late! For an aggro deck maybe, but for the normal decks absolutely not.
The swing has to be strong enough though or the risk of losing before the pay off wouldn't be worth the reward and no one would play it. Statistically Quest Rogue is balanced around 50% win rate or less. Less polarized match ups would be nice, but if changes are made to benefit control decks against QR without also buffs for QR against aggro, then the net win rate will go down on both ends for QR. Make the quest take longer to complete? Aggro will wreck QR even harder. Make the stats weaker? Then QR might as well just play aggro without the quest. Making it an non-interacting non-targetable minion like the Warlock Quest reward is probably the most reasonable change I've heard someone mention.
Problem with Rogue overall and quest too is 2 cards...PREPARATION AND BACKSTAB...nothing else...if quest is a portal that open is a way to balance him someway and not be a spell that can prep...
Preparation and Shadowstep are core cards to Rogues identity as a class. Backstab is just tempo removal and is one of the few (imo good) anti aggro cards Rogue has. I could accept the Crystal Core being a portal like minion instead of a spell.
and the more improtant to remind in rogue players...rogue is playble and top tier deck in most seasons from beta...with miracle oil miracle and now miracle and quest...gg balance class
I don't think Rogue players need any reminder that the only archetype they have had for a long time has been Miracle. After the nerfs to Blade Flurry Oil Rogue doesn't exist anymore, even in Wild. Two 'viable' archetypes for a class isn't a whole lot of diversity, though that is better than what Warlocks got this expansion.
About your first sentence: Well, the devs didn't do a good job, when they designed the quest spells. I'm sorry, but for me the quest rogue completes the quest very easily, it has so many cheap ways to do so. It dies to aggro, true, but all of the quest decks suffer from that as well (except TW and Murloc shaman). But what i want to criticize in this post, is that the quests aren't balanced between themselves - the warlock quest is a medium task, medium reward one, the pala one needs buffs just for 1 lousy minion/beast, the dudu one is not that good too... while the rogue quest gives a great reward at a "low cost".
I would also accept the change of the reward not being a spell anymore, so it won't be prep-ed and thus having less space on the board. I also think this is reasonable. Don't know if that would be enough though (as I can't foresee it while on paper), but I would gladly see the outcome of such a change.
About your first sentence: Well, the devs didn't do a good job, when they designed the quest spells. I'm sorry, but for me the quest rogue completes the quest very easily, it has so many cheap ways to do so. It dies to aggro, true, but all of the quest decks suffer from that as well (except TW and Murloc shaman). But what i want to criticize in this post, is that the quests aren't balanced between themselves - the warlock quest is a medium task, medium reward one, the pala one needs buffs just for 1 lousy minion/beast, the dudu one is not that good too... while the rogue quest gives a great reward at a "low cost".
I would also accept the change of the reward not being a spell anymore, so it won't be prep-ed and thus having less space on the board. I also think this is reasonable. Don't know if that would be enough though (as I can't foresee it while on paper), but I would gladly see the outcome of such a change.
Criticize in your post or mine? If your post, why did you reply to me specifically? If my post, why are you talking about the state of the other quests in reply to me? I never said anything about QR being balanced with the other quests, only that its Win Rate can be considered statistically balanced when viewed from the big picture, though also acknowledging that some match ups are highly polarized and that it would be nice if something could be done to help that out without making QR unplayable. I don't really care to discuss the other quests because I don't have them and have no experience playing with them, though I would love to see them all considered playable.
It seems prep is the uber enable of this deck. T3-4 vanish or t4-5 quest activator... But does quest rogue become unplayable without prep?
From a control standpoint prep vanish allows the rogue to wipe your board, potentially mill you, the opponent, and have mana left over for 3+ cheap 5/5s to fill their board.
If it were straight vanish or straight quest it would give opponents a lot more breathing room to respond?
Also, if prep is the enabling offender you'd be killing the current maricle rogue as well as balancing quest rogue at the same time if it received any changes.
The meta is overall really accessible right now, but as mentioned t1-2 decks are being tuned. I feel with quest rogues access to cheap tools it will continually get stronger as it counters more and more classes effectively. It's hard though for any class to tech straight against it unless you go full agro, but Ying and Yang meta.
If playing without prep means losing to aggro, then I would guess it very well could. If you don't already have a board when you play it, 5 mana do nothing is a pretty big tempo hit when you could be close to dying.
Mill is a valid strategy which punishes greedy decks, though it is stronger in Wild with Gang Up and Brann Bronzebeard for the Coldlight Oracles. I don't see an issue with mill existing as a strategy.
Agreed blizz should not mess with either the druid or rogue mill variants. Its a unique toolkit that comes in and out of play and should always be accessible to some degree.
I personally would like to see more viable decks not less.
I don't see too much wrong with it. If Qrogue was 80% of the meta like pirate warrior used to be then I'd get the problem. The only problem with Qrogue is the amount of cards needed to play it especially when you look at Lakari Sacrifice and how impractical it is to even try and get that online. Rogue needed a different identity considering how miracle blew you away when it won, and tbh the state miracle is in now it's actually a lot less of a deck where you can be sat at high hp and be really worried.
I'd argue much more of a problem with this game is game is 'burn mage' or just continually people hitting face in a braindead way. Imo shouldn't be able to hit face until all minions on that player's side are destroyed. That said, I live in a world where I'd like every game to go to or near fatigue, I play 30 cards in my deck for a reason.
Criticize in your post or mine? If your post, why did you reply to me specifically? If my post, why are you talking about the state of the other quests in reply to me? I never said anything about QR being balanced with the other quests, only that its Win Rate can be considered statistically balanced when viewed from the big picture, though also acknowledging that some match ups are highly polarized and that it would be nice if something could be done to help that out without making QR unplayable. I don't really care to discuss the other quests because I don't have them and have no experience playing with them, though I would love to see them all considered playable.
It was just another point i wanted to mention. To you, because we started a little discussion and I wanted to continue ;). but nvm
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The problem is the freaking guest,that is the only problem.
One problem with Vanish is the milling aspect. It should temporarily increase the opponent's hand size so that no cards get milled, destroyed or burnt.
Now more importantly your statement.
Yes, I understand, that the quest reward is compensating for their tempo loss. However I don't think that pace is a healthy one - like with the PW example there is a moment, when they make such a swing, that is impossible for the opposing player to recover. Aggro decks don't have that problem (against QR), they try to finish off the opponent as fast as possible. But any other deck, that can't generate enough pressure will struggle to lose its board due to cheap 5/5s, which make favourable trades with the more costly minions. This or the vanish part, where the opposing player has to yet again establish their board, while the rogue can very easily spam 1 mana minions.
My statement above was to point out, that the scales go abruptly in QR's favour, when completing the quest. And this is the part I'm not OK with. Just like with the jade mechanic - at one point you can't handle the beefy minions, only this time this moment comes a lot sooner. Turn 5/6/7 is not that late! For an aggro deck maybe, but for the normal decks absolutely not.
I hate when people involve wrong cards in the problem. Vanish is not the problem, the problem is Shadowstep and low criteria for Caverns Below.
Priest does have tech against it. Dragon fire potion and pint size potion onto sw horror. What else do they want a free ride against every class?
speed, momentum, violence
The swing has to be strong enough though or the risk of losing before the pay off wouldn't be worth the reward and no one would play it. Statistically Quest Rogue is balanced around 50% win rate or less. Less polarized match ups would be nice, but if changes are made to benefit control decks against QR without also buffs for QR against aggro, then the net win rate will go down on both ends for QR. Make the quest take longer to complete? Aggro will wreck QR even harder. Make the stats weaker? Then QR might as well just play aggro without the quest. Making it an non-interacting non-targetable minion like the Warlock Quest reward is probably the most reasonable change I've heard someone mention.
Preparation and Shadowstep are core cards to Rogues identity as a class. Backstab is just tempo removal and is one of the few (imo good) anti aggro cards Rogue has. I could accept the Crystal Core being a portal like minion instead of a spell.
About your first sentence:
Well, the devs didn't do a good job, when they designed the quest spells. I'm sorry, but for me the quest rogue completes the quest very easily, it has so many cheap ways to do so. It dies to aggro, true, but all of the quest decks suffer from that as well (except TW and Murloc shaman). But what i want to criticize in this post, is that the quests aren't balanced between themselves - the warlock quest is a medium task, medium reward one, the pala one needs buffs just for 1 lousy minion/beast, the dudu one is not that good too... while the rogue quest gives a great reward at a "low cost".
I would also accept the change of the reward not being a spell anymore, so it won't be prep-ed and thus having less space on the board. I also think this is reasonable. Don't know if that would be enough though (as I can't foresee it while on paper), but I would gladly see the outcome of such a change.
Well being you have such super powers as to be omnipresent maybe go buy tonight's winning numbers... Yes 15 deal with it.
Thanks for the constrollolling response!
No card except the coin should cost 0.
Agreed blizz should not mess with either the druid or rogue mill variants. Its a unique toolkit that comes in and out of play and should always be accessible to some degree.
I personally would like to see more viable decks not less.
I don't see too much wrong with it. If Qrogue was 80% of the meta like pirate warrior used to be then I'd get the problem. The only problem with Qrogue is the amount of cards needed to play it especially when you look at Lakari Sacrifice and how impractical it is to even try and get that online. Rogue needed a different identity considering how miracle blew you away when it won, and tbh the state miracle is in now it's actually a lot less of a deck where you can be sat at high hp and be really worried.
I'd argue much more of a problem with this game is game is 'burn mage' or just continually people hitting face in a braindead way. Imo shouldn't be able to hit face until all minions on that player's side are destroyed. That said, I live in a world where I'd like every game to go to or near fatigue, I play 30 cards in my deck for a reason.
but nvm