I play predominantly priest these days and took Lyra/dragon to legend last season to preface my skill level.
That said I encounter 15 straight quest rogues today on ladder around r5-7...
I noted on reviewing gameplay the main tactic to winning is build your board up and out value. However, vanish instantly reduces your position and usually allows the rogue to play 2-5 minions pending if it was prepped into a instant lose situation.
If you chose to play around vanish and not board flood you'll end up being out valued on board.
Of the matches I played I won 6 lost 9. Of the 6 I won vanish was not played, one game even had a T3 completion.
I am wondering what others think of vanish and it's interaction in quest rogue and if it may actually be what makes the deck so strong Vs midrange and control.
Quest rogues have to have their own "tech" cards against control and midrange. Just becouse rogue quest eventually gives you 1 or 2 mana 5/5 doesnt mean vanish is a problem. Its still a 6 mana card and they will always, always mulligan away in oder to complete quest early
Its not a problem. Yeah its a setback especially if you used buff cards on your minions but thats the meta
Wonder when people will stop complaining about quest rogue beating them and start thinking about literally every game they ever played in which it felt like you were never losing, or bullying the opponent. We've all destroyed people before, and that's quest rogues only goal, to destroy you with fatties. But they can't do that consistently. They have one card that sometimes helps them complete their quest or gets them board control back, but that's not a problem in the least.
i think Rogue having Vanish is a fair deal for not having a board wipe while still enabling the continuous onslaught of their minions. Vanish is just a tech card and is no way the main card to use to ramp up copies played on the quest counter, which is what the main bounce cards: Gadgetzan Ferryman, Shadowstep and Youthful Brewmaster are for. Those cards being so cheap are the main reasons why one can easily ramp up the copy counter for The Caverns Below
Vanish didn't even see play (aside from the elusive Mill Rogue) until the current meta despite its being a Classic card.
You can't complain about a card being a "problem" if it's only just recently started seeing play. "Problem" cards are those that are toxic from the day they are released, regardless of what state the meta is in. Vanish sees play in one deck. That deck just so happens to counter your favorite class. You apparently continued to play that class despite the overwhelming number of direct counters on the ladder, then, instead of walking away or switching to a different deck, you came on Hearthpwn to complain. Do you see the issue here?
Quest Rogue AUTO-LOSES to Aggro Druid and is pretty much hopeless if you dont draw a Hungry Crab against Paladin.
Its funny how on Reddit everyone was jerking off to the Kibler video about the Quest Rogue problem. He mains Priest, the best matchup for Quest Rogue, of course he's gonna want a nerf.
Back in the mid-Old Gods days, when Rogue was getting smashed in the face by Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem, I didnt complain about a nerf...
You don't even post the decklist you were using. If you want to discuss how to best quest rogue in spite of vanish, you probably need to include such information. If you just want to qq like some scrub who can't beat a deck with such glaring weakness, take it to the salt thread...
Don't see a problem with vanish, if I did i would have to have the same problem with all board clears, which I don't. Its all about the match-ups, deck draws and combos. Do i get pissed when I build up a nice lethal board and either brawl, vanish, flame-strike or equality + consecration send me packing, hell yeah. But I try to do same in kind every game! Lots of meta decks have their win condition board clears, its just the game.
Did I sound pissed? A lot of negativity and insults in this thread when it was a simply question...
I also asked for opinions. I hardly made an end all statement. But thank you for the knee jerk responses. Also, never said priest was my fav class... But apparently predominantly plays means that now.
Overall some good arguments, even if dressed up in douche responses. Yes I understand that vanish hard counters priests and was just curious how others felt. I was referencing how vanish interacted so incredibly well with the quest itself for rogue. I never said it was OP or want it nerfed. Love how we're all so toxic we immediately go to the worst places possible when responding to what could have been a decent discussion. Thanks.
Quest Rogue AUTO-LOSES to Aggro Druid and is pretty much hopeless if you dont draw a Hungry Crab against Paladin.
Its funny how on Reddit everyone was jerking off to the Kibler video about the Quest Rogue problem. He mains Priest, the best matchup for Quest Rogue, of course he's gonna want a nerf.
Back in the mid-Old Gods days, when Rogue was getting smashed in the face by Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem, I didnt complain about a nerf...
Ya totally agree that agro hard counters quest rogue. Probably why taunt is creeping into quest rogue deck lists now.
If you don't have too many minions on board or too many cards in hand, you can't play around it, because it makes no difference. So just try to built the board.
The problem with quest rogue is not vanish or any other card in the deck. It's just thequest itself. The only quest that can completed so early in the game and the only quest with such a good effect and no trade off. Even taunt warrior has to trade its armor hero power. Priest gets their quest nullified when your opponent has alextrasza in his deck. What about quest rogue? Can't do shit about it when it hits. It even changes the stats of the minions on board what I think is the absolute worst part about it. And even stolen minions are getting buffed (rogue has a lot of potions of madness somehow when they play vs priest).
The quest should have been only raise the attack to 5 and leave health as it is. The quest would still be great
I think in your specific matchup, Vanish is the problem card. In my experience quest rogue will just pump out their 5/5s faster than a control/midrange deck can consistently clear the board, and would in that way not necessitate a Vanish turn. The fact dragon priest can discover dragonfire with shadow visions grants the ability to clear the 5/5 swarms 2+ times, which is more than say a control paladin or a control shaman could do (although is still reliant on getting those draws, hence the matchup is still favorable for quest rogue), and allows priest to have that dedicated clear for quest rogue to tame the board more reliably. I'm coming from mainly control shaman experience, and I am usually unable to establish board until very late in the game so I understand it is very big difference from minion-centric priest decks, but you get the point. Unfortunately I can't think of a way the priest can play around this, but I guess this is the nature of such a polarizing meta.
Also not sure how the vanish turns went for you, but I assume they prep+vanish on the games you lost. In that sense, maybe prep is the main offender in that it cheats mana and produces more insane turns than could have been possible.
Considering how Dragonfire Potion has the same mana cost, is a better board clear than vanish, and is obviously powerful vs Quest Rogue, I don't think there's any reason for dragon priest to complain about board clear.
I knew that people will start to comment how incorrect it is to complain about Vanish, just because it rarely saw any play, and that they will mock players for complaining about it.
And they are right, this card is not the problem with QR. But this just helps them a lot. Having cheap 5/5s, that trade with costly minions and which you can refresh my bouncing them back and trade again and again*... This is the issue for me. I know that this is the main thought behind QR, but what can you do to stop waves of 5/5s right after turn 5/6/7. For me this is the same scenario, when back in gadgetzan on turn 3 PW used Bloodsail Cultist on their weapon to get Dread Corsair for free - basically for 3 mana playing 6/7 worth of stats and upgrading the weapon. Now people can argue, that this wasn't the case in every game, but this was the MOMENT, when the player starts to make such a swing, which is hard for the other player to come back from. You have to deal with more pirates and a weapon and to top it all off on turn 3. After that the PW can snowball with its board even more. So this is the case for me with QR: it's a huge tempo swing after they get their reward done and start to flood the board. After that they also snowball even greater - by bouncing cheap stuff, by vanishing the whole board, practically neutralizing the whole enemy board within 1-2 turns.
OP, I see your concern. I also don't like QR and I don't think, that just because is not considered to be a tier 1 deck, the possibilities it has makes it a problematic deck and that people shouldn't ignore the issue. But like Brian Kibler said - if we would need tools to handle the deck, just like we got sweet taunts and weapon removal against pirates, what tools are there against the QR? What is the thing, that can be disrupted and in the same time not being an answer just to one single deck?
* Note: Just a little math. 1 mana 5/5 charges to a 4 mana or greater minion, this way you out-trade your opponent with your cheap stuff and slowly establish board dominance, thus still having the mana to put even more stuff on the board. And this can happen right after getting the reward. And no wonder that mage does well against it, because they don't rely on their minions to win them the game. Note 2: Just a personal thought. Ending the game on turn 5 or 6, when someone dies to aggro (NOT talking about "I die on t5 from QR"), encouraging the charge mechanic even more (when your minions on the board are threatened to be out-traded) is not the way to proceed. No deck should be considered a "slow, greedy" one, just because it can't kill the opponent that early.
Edit: next expansion we get a crab, that eats 5/5s, or a priest spell, which kills all the 5 attack minions on the board :D
Kovachut, if the Crystal Core didn't give you a tempo / value swing then Quest Rogue would be unplayable. Completing the quest is a form of tempo loss because you are undeveloping your board by bouncing minions. This is why QR decks struggle versus aggro, which is curving out as fast as possible by flooding the board. If Rogue had better board clears in general they could afford to play slower as a class, but they don't.
Developing new cards to counter QR will be tough. A spell that hit 5 attack minions like Shadow Word: Death already exists, but I doubt a neutral crab with a similar ability would be made because such a card would adversely affect all 5 attack minions played by any class, making decks like Jungle Druid that much harder to play. Priest already has Lightbomb in Wild, so I don't think we'll see a reprint of that.
Hey, long time poster first time thread creation.
I play predominantly priest these days and took Lyra/dragon to legend last season to preface my skill level.
That said I encounter 15 straight quest rogues today on ladder around r5-7...
I noted on reviewing gameplay the main tactic to winning is build your board up and out value. However, vanish instantly reduces your position and usually allows the rogue to play 2-5 minions pending if it was prepped into a instant lose situation.
If you chose to play around vanish and not board flood you'll end up being out valued on board.
Of the matches I played I won 6 lost 9. Of the 6 I won vanish was not played, one game even had a T3 completion.
I am wondering what others think of vanish and it's interaction in quest rogue and if it may actually be what makes the deck so strong Vs midrange and control.
TL:DR
Vanish beats midrange and control in quest rogue.
Quest rogues have to have their own "tech" cards against control and midrange. Just becouse rogue quest eventually gives you 1 or 2 mana 5/5 doesnt mean vanish is a problem. Its still a 6 mana card and they will always, always mulligan away in oder to complete quest early
Its not a problem. Yeah its a setback especially if you used buff cards on your minions but thats the meta
Priest sucks against quest rogue, period.
Can't really do much against a bad matchup.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
Yup, Rogue only has one board clear now after the huge nerfs to Blade Flurry and that is Vanish, another board clear with a clear downside.
It would be interesting whether Vanish correlated with winning or losing, but I've played versions that did fine without it.
Wonder when people will stop complaining about quest rogue beating them and start thinking about literally every game they ever played in which it felt like you were never losing, or bullying the opponent. We've all destroyed people before, and that's quest rogues only goal, to destroy you with fatties. But they can't do that consistently. They have one card that sometimes helps them complete their quest or gets them board control back, but that's not a problem in the least.
i think Rogue having Vanish is a fair deal for not having a board wipe while still enabling the continuous onslaught of their minions. Vanish is just a tech card and is no way the main card to use to ramp up copies played on the quest counter, which is what the main bounce cards: Gadgetzan Ferryman, Shadowstep and Youthful Brewmaster are for. Those cards being so cheap are the main reasons why one can easily ramp up the copy counter for The Caverns Below
Vanish didn't even see play (aside from the elusive Mill Rogue) until the current meta despite its being a Classic card.
You can't complain about a card being a "problem" if it's only just recently started seeing play. "Problem" cards are those that are toxic from the day they are released, regardless of what state the meta is in. Vanish sees play in one deck. That deck just so happens to counter your favorite class. You apparently continued to play that class despite the overwhelming number of direct counters on the ladder, then, instead of walking away or switching to a different deck, you came on Hearthpwn to complain. Do you see the issue here?
Quest Rogue AUTO-LOSES to Aggro Druid and is pretty much hopeless if you dont draw a Hungry Crab against Paladin.
Its funny how on Reddit everyone was jerking off to the Kibler video about the Quest Rogue problem. He mains Priest, the best matchup for Quest Rogue, of course he's gonna want a nerf.
Back in the mid-Old Gods days, when Rogue was getting smashed in the face by Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem, I didnt complain about a nerf...
You don't even post the decklist you were using. If you want to discuss how to best quest rogue in spite of vanish, you probably need to include such information. If you just want to qq like some scrub who can't beat a deck with such glaring weakness, take it to the salt thread...
Don't see a problem with vanish, if I did i would have to have the same problem with all board clears, which I don't. Its all about the match-ups, deck draws and combos. Do i get pissed when I build up a nice lethal board and either brawl, vanish, flame-strike or equality + consecration send me packing, hell yeah. But I try to do same in kind every game! Lots of meta decks have their win condition board clears, its just the game.
Did I sound pissed? A lot of negativity and insults in this thread when it was a simply question...
I also asked for opinions. I hardly made an end all statement. But thank you for the knee jerk responses. Also, never said priest was my fav class... But apparently predominantly plays means that now.
Overall some good arguments, even if dressed up in douche responses. Yes I understand that vanish hard counters priests and was just curious how others felt. I was referencing how vanish interacted so incredibly well with the quest itself for rogue. I never said it was OP or want it nerfed. Love how we're all so toxic we immediately go to the worst places possible when responding to what could have been a decent discussion. Thanks.
Why did you bother posting when you clearly cannot read? I wasn't asking for help with my play nor was I bitching about getting beat.
If you don't have too many minions on board or too many cards in hand, you can't play around it, because it makes no difference. So just try to built the board.
The problem with quest rogue is not vanish or any other card in the deck. It's just thequest itself. The only quest that can completed so early in the game and the only quest with such a good effect and no trade off. Even taunt warrior has to trade its armor hero power. Priest gets their quest nullified when your opponent has alextrasza in his deck. What about quest rogue? Can't do shit about it when it hits. It even changes the stats of the minions on board what I think is the absolute worst part about it. And even stolen minions are getting buffed (rogue has a lot of potions of madness somehow when they play vs priest).
The quest should have been only raise the attack to 5 and leave health as it is. The quest would still be great
I think in your specific matchup, Vanish is the problem card. In my experience quest rogue will just pump out their 5/5s faster than a control/midrange deck can consistently clear the board, and would in that way not necessitate a Vanish turn. The fact dragon priest can discover dragonfire with shadow visions grants the ability to clear the 5/5 swarms 2+ times, which is more than say a control paladin or a control shaman could do (although is still reliant on getting those draws, hence the matchup is still favorable for quest rogue), and allows priest to have that dedicated clear for quest rogue to tame the board more reliably. I'm coming from mainly control shaman experience, and I am usually unable to establish board until very late in the game so I understand it is very big difference from minion-centric priest decks, but you get the point. Unfortunately I can't think of a way the priest can play around this, but I guess this is the nature of such a polarizing meta.
Also not sure how the vanish turns went for you, but I assume they prep+vanish on the games you lost. In that sense, maybe prep is the main offender in that it cheats mana and produces more insane turns than could have been possible.
Considering how Dragonfire Potion has the same mana cost, is a better board clear than vanish, and is obviously powerful vs Quest Rogue, I don't think there's any reason for dragon priest to complain about board clear.
I knew that people will start to comment how incorrect it is to complain about Vanish, just because it rarely saw any play, and that they will mock players for complaining about it.
And they are right, this card is not the problem with QR. But this just helps them a lot. Having cheap 5/5s, that trade with costly minions and which you can refresh my bouncing them back and trade again and again*... This is the issue for me. I know that this is the main thought behind QR, but what can you do to stop waves of 5/5s right after turn 5/6/7. For me this is the same scenario, when back in gadgetzan on turn 3 PW used Bloodsail Cultist on their weapon to get Dread Corsair for free - basically for 3 mana playing 6/7 worth of stats and upgrading the weapon. Now people can argue, that this wasn't the case in every game, but this was the MOMENT, when the player starts to make such a swing, which is hard for the other player to come back from. You have to deal with more pirates and a weapon and to top it all off on turn 3. After that the PW can snowball with its board even more. So this is the case for me with QR: it's a huge tempo swing after they get their reward done and start to flood the board. After that they also snowball even greater - by bouncing cheap stuff, by vanishing the whole board, practically neutralizing the whole enemy board within 1-2 turns.
OP, I see your concern. I also don't like QR and I don't think, that just because is not considered to be a tier 1 deck, the possibilities it has makes it a problematic deck and that people shouldn't ignore the issue. But like Brian Kibler said - if we would need tools to handle the deck, just like we got sweet taunts and weapon removal against pirates, what tools are there against the QR? What is the thing, that can be disrupted and in the same time not being an answer just to one single deck?
* Note: Just a little math. 1 mana 5/5 charges to a 4 mana or greater minion, this way you out-trade your opponent with your cheap stuff and slowly establish board dominance, thus still having the mana to put even more stuff on the board. And this can happen right after getting the reward. And no wonder that mage does well against it, because they don't rely on their minions to win them the game.
Note 2: Just a personal thought. Ending the game on turn 5 or 6, when someone dies to aggro (NOT talking about "I die on t5 from QR"), encouraging the charge mechanic even more (when your minions on the board are threatened to be out-traded) is not the way to proceed. No deck should be considered a "slow, greedy" one, just because it can't kill the opponent that early.
Edit: next expansion we get a crab, that eats 5/5s, or a priest spell, which kills all the 5 attack minions on the board :D
Kovachut, if the Crystal Core didn't give you a tempo / value swing then Quest Rogue would be unplayable. Completing the quest is a form of tempo loss because you are undeveloping your board by bouncing minions. This is why QR decks struggle versus aggro, which is curving out as fast as possible by flooding the board. If Rogue had better board clears in general they could afford to play slower as a class, but they don't.
Developing new cards to counter QR will be tough. A spell that hit 5 attack minions like Shadow Word: Death already exists, but I doubt a neutral crab with a similar ability would be made because such a card would adversely affect all 5 attack minions played by any class, making decks like Jungle Druid that much harder to play. Priest already has Lightbomb in Wild, so I don't think we'll see a reprint of that.