Hearthpwn

@Wonderbuster, It is rich, I agree, Blizzard makes a ton of money, even with competition. If the competition keeps them more honest and proactive that would be a good thing but I'll believe it when I see it. Comparing Overwatch to Hearthstone makes little sense though, they aren't even the same kind of game. I don't find your claim that the "hatred for Caverns Below dwarfs any of the hate thrown at Dr Boom, Mysterious Challenger, and Patches" to be very credible but I'm also don't find it that interesting to talk about either. Hate is just hate and doesn't make for much of a discussion. Meta trends, statistics, and balance change suggestions on the other hand are far more interesting.

@WraithM

No, trust me, this time this is different. One thing a lot of people need to realize is how scary the situation here is. Jade Idol was another problematic card that took up a whole 3rd of the meta before Un'Goro, yet Quest Rogue has garnered more attention from the vocal majority.

The fact that this has turned into such a major problem in such a good meta compared to the last means this is WAY bigger issue than the Idol, and for good reason. This is the kind of mistake that can leave a permanent blemish on the game, and as we've been seeing, people are already leaving the game in flocks!

Its time for Blizz to just cut their loses and fix the balancing problem before they manage to make it any worse, and that means putting their foot in the RIGHT direction and fixing their Quest.

BTW, I get that you probably agree with most of this, but many players are still oblivious to some HS breaking issues that deserve to be dealt with, for both theirs and our sake...

And I still don't see a problem here.. especially not one as big as it is pushed up to be. Jadedruid was a class that was actually played/ is still played. Questrogue on the other hand.. I played 15 games on rank 8-7 so far while writing down every single enemy: 3 secret mage 4 aggro druid 2 pirate warrior 2 silence priests 2 plant rouge 1 shaman 1 murloc paladin and not one quest rogue.. yeah the deck might seem oppressive if they draw well and everything but it's a one trick pony with bad matchups against most aggro and midrange decks hence why it's almost not played further down the ladder. 

I know those numbers are only my personal ones and maybe to small of a sample size etc..but if the deck was nearly as oppressive as some people make it out to be the ladder would be infested with it..but how things look right now it will simply die on its own..I mean who in the right mind ladders with a boring deck that has also low overall winrates. 

And also I don't believe it actually promots aggro deck because these are the only ones that can beat it.. rather ladder itself promots aggro decks because they are efficient, with or without questrogue being played.

Quote from Elhydrophilio >>

And I still don't see a problem here.. especially not one as big as it is pushed up to be. Jadedruid was a class that was actually played/ is still played. Questrogue on the other hand.. I played 15 games on rank 8-7 so far while writing down every single enemy: 3 secret mage 4 aggro druid 2 pirate warrior 2 silence priests 2 plant rouge 1 shaman 1 murloc paladin and not one quest rogue.. 

 

Quote from itforwait >>

Quote from Elhydrophilio >>

And I still don't see a problem here.. especially not one as big as it is pushed up to be. Jadedruid was a class that was actually played/ is still played. Questrogue on the other hand.. I played 15 games on rank 8-7 so far while writing down every single enemy: 3 secret mage 4 aggro druid 2 pirate warrior 2 silence priests 2 plant rouge 1 shaman 1 murloc paladin and not one quest rogue.. 

 

 That's because they are all legend by now.

@Zence, I appreciate your cordiality and your taking the time to further explain your position. You are correct that we have some points of view in common, though I don't understand your sense of urgency on this card. I'm a data driven person when it comes to talking about this game, so I will highlight the two areas where I have a harder time following along with the reasoning behind your arguments.

• Player base numbers and logon trends for Hearthstone are not public information to my knowledge. If 3rd party data is available that suggests that players are leaving in significant numbers, can all other explanations aside from the current state of quests be ruled out as the more likely explanation?
• Crystal Rogue has garnered attention, but what metric are you using to determine that it is getting more (negative) attention than Jade Idol and similar cards? I personally think it is hard to quantify that one card is getting more attention than another because of the information available or rather the lack thereof.

When Vicious Syndicate is claiming this is the most diverse meta for an expansion in Hearthstone history (report #51, link below), I find it harder to believe that Crystal Rogue is posing a significant enough of a problem that the meta can't handle it organically on its own without a direct intervention from Blizzard. For everyone else's reference, I'm not saying there aren't issues, just stating that I believe Blizzard's approach will be to wait and see if the meta can solve the issues on its own first before acting. I'm not a game designer, so I can't say where or not this is the best approach for them to take.

@WraithM

For your first part, here is a basic Google Trends chart that shows the declining interest of the game. While this isn't directly the amount of people still playing, you can see that less people are playing/talking about it. Personally I already have a few friends that quit the game so its already strongly suggesting that its accurate.

As for the 2nd part, Jade Idol (never nerfed) had its own nerf thread, but it shockingly has less posts in it than the Quest Rogue threads both here and on reddit... Living in a balanced meta, we should be expecting the opposite, so the fact that the Quest has gotten so much attention means that as of now, it feels like the players are viewing it as a bigger threat than the Jadey Bunch.

None of us can truly predict the best move for Blizzard in this case, but to a lot of players, it feels like they are avoiding the issue/don't care, which is slowly ruining the game. It also doesn't help that a lot of the community is so toxic.

But then again what people make up to be a treat and what really is one might differ due to perception issues. Jade idol might in reality be way stronger/ consistent then quest rogue. Losing against quest rogue due to it finishing turn 4/5 might seem oppressive.. then again there are tons of games where rogue doesn't draw perfect gets smashed anyway etc. so that the deck is overall not nearly as good as it is perceived to be. And exactly that is what I thing is going on. I never saw it as oppressive or as a treat. my last 21 games had not one quest rogue in it on rank 7 which leads me to believe it's barely played.

So from a design perspective why would anyone Nerf the last halfway working quest into Oblivion because people feel it is oppressive when hard facts point to it being not nearly as oppressive as it is perceived to be? If I'd start a treat about tunnler weasle being oppressive and a thousand people jumped on the train and felt the same way, would blizzard really need to react to our subjective whims?

Quote from Elhydrophilio >>

Yeah i found it.. wasn't even aware that there are 3 different types since most matches feel the same for me: secrets discover a spell freeze board blizzards doomsayer alexstraza etc. might just be that all the types just have access to the same spells due to glyp and babbling and thus feel rather similar when encountering them. 

Nevertheless I just started noting down what I face on my way from 8-5 currently rank 7 faced 2 aggro druids 2 silence priests 1 paladin and 1 secret mage ( this one was the first I could identify as such due to no freeze and tons of secrets)

 

I haven't looked at the model Decklists yet but after I was at the site I saw the difference in the games. In fact I haven't lost against a single secret mage since I started identifying them as such. Freeze and or tempomages are the scary ones. You said I can send those to you..you can have em I take all the secret mages in return^^

Edit: I hate them so much it's unberable..full board with 6 Mana minons thanks to double evolve and what follows is pyro; I pop the ice block; into fireball icebolt into iceblock; I pop the iceblock; into arcane intellect into firerlands..I want to face those rumored Crystal core rouge's instead 

First, while you could be right, the Google Trend chart doesn't show how many people are playing/talking about Hearthstone but just the number of searches being made for that term and when, so I would want to see some additional source of evidence before I could agree with you that less people are playing or talking about Hearthstone.

• Interestingly, the search spikes correspond with expansion and adventure releases, though LoE, Karazhan, and Gadgetzan spiked less than the others. There could be a general downward trend in searches but that could be explained as most people having already learned what they needed or already having found the websites they use to get their information when they need it, in which case they no longer need to search for it from Google.

Second, the number of posts for Jade Idol or Caverns Below here or elsewhere such as Reddit can only be said to show a certain level of investment in discussing it. Without additional information about the contents of those posts and who was posting, it would be scientifically inaccurate to make claims about their intentions and perceptions as a group.

• For example, while the title of this thread claims Caverns Below needs a nerf, not everyone who posted here agrees whether a change is required or not or even how much of a change should be made. Some believe it is fine the way it is, some think an adjustment is in order, while others want it completely removed from the game/rendered unplayable. Then there are others who don't care either way who may or may not post to share that opinion. 

@WraithM 

Hi again! 

• One thing I thought you should remember about the Google Trend chart is that Hearthstone is an ever changing game that is (currently not so successful at) drawing in new players. So for every spike, it is much more likely that people in general have seen trailers and searched it up, players already in HS google search info about different aspects of the expansion, and etc. Places like Reddit and Hearthpwn may be a well of information, but it doesn't have everything you may be looking for. I still actively google HS info that wouldn't normally appear places like here. Because of this, a more believable scenario on the decline is that people are losing interest/not having fun anymore with the game. I wish I had found a better chart to share with you, but if I find anything i'll be more than happy to send a link.

• As for the threads, you are correct that not every post is agreeing with the OP. In fact, you may even say that Jade Idol had less posts because more people agreed it was broken, and therefore didn't speak as to not be redundant. On the other hand, Caverns Below has gathered a lot more attention and the need to reply and discuss, which if VERY odd when so many people are saying that it is a balanced meta. You can't have a perfect meta, and its pretty much a common thought nowadays to experienced players, which is why we mostly hear about aggro decks like Pirate Warrior in the salty thread. But because of how problematic and player-base splitting the Quest has become, it is making a much more negative environment even outside the game, and new players trying to figure things out by coming to sites like these will be evermore discouraged when they find out that even veterans are complaining about something they may run into. 

All in all, quantity might not be the best perspective on the situation, but it also shows a window into why I feel this isn't something they should let sit around and fester.

Quote from Raynman >>

For the first time since launch I am actually done with ranked. For the first time I'm actually choosing to play casual just so I can insta-concede to every stupid quest rogue I see.

Nice way to destroy this game and take every fun aspect out of it. I despise Blizzard for still not fixing this shit and every idiot who play this deck even though they very well know it's no fun for anyone. Pathetic is the word

/Endrant

 

 

 

@Zence, for sure, if you find a better chart or statistical source on the Hearthstone player base trends I'd like to see it. I rarely use Google for Hearthstone information unless I'm on my phone so I guess everyone is different, which is why I would be hesitant to use Google Trends by itself to make claims like that without additional numbers to correlate it with. I am all for using statistics though to get a better understanding of the bigger picture so I appreciate your sharing that link. 

I think we're also on the same page now about interpreting the total number of posts in those threads. It is always good critical thinking / data science to question whether a piece of information says what we think it says or whether there is another explanation that fits better. The things you suggested in your last post about the number of posts in the Jade Idol thread fit in with what the Vocal Minority and Silent Majority problem is, so I believe you also understand this too - you always have to wonder what the people not posting (the silent majority) are thinking.

On that subject, while they could agree with the dominant view point of the thread and not feel the need to post, another possibility for why they don't post could include feeling intimidated from the perception that their point of view is unpopular or in the minority. I don't have a problem posting here, but I don't reply to everything either. There is a lot of negativity surrounding the game as a whole right now and Brian Kibler did a segment on it that I listened to earlier today and I found it pretty interesting.

This game is dying because of the lack of balance and communication. They are losing tons of players and millions in sales. Other card games are growing. If they do finally balance their game, they can slow down the loss. Many of my friends have quit.

Link or data source to confirm claim? While you could be right, it is just speculation without actual numbers to look at.

Blizzard hasn't really communicated about their intentions for Crystal Rogue (that I know of), so I would agree with you there, but I would disagree with your broader claim that the game lacks balance because class and archetype diversity is at an all time high right now this expansion (see DataReaper links in my signature).

I won a quest rogue game WITHOUT finishing quest, lol. (And not by the opponent conceding early)

Guess there's a first time for everything

https://hsreplay.net/replay/VKCnFuYpepeBf5SrjENjxb

Pretty cool game and nice Glacial Shard highlight. The one time I remember winning without the quest was with a heavier Water style Quest Rogue I was experimenting with at the beginning of the expansion where the Water Package swing got me the win before I finished the quest. If I come back to playing Quest Rogue it will probably be something like this that is less dependent on the quest: https://hsreplay.net/replay/R7fCkC82kuLx32VkSgwCsm

Quote from WraithM >>

Pretty cool game and nice Glacial Shard highlight. The one time I remember winning without the quest was with a heavier Water style Quest Rogue I was experimenting with at the beginning of the expansion where the Water Package swing got me the win before I finished the quest. If I come back to playing Quest Rogue it will probably be something like this that is less dependent on the quest: https://hsreplay.net/replay/R7fCkC82kuLx32VkSgwCsm

I love how team 5 lied once again about bringing balance changes faster, but people are like whatever let them lie instead of calling them out. What a joke.