Hearthpwn

Quote from SlickRick >>

Quote from Ehronatha >>

I don't understand how people say that QR is fine and not that strong. 

Simple. Because they play it.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from SlickRick >>

Simple. Because they play it.

Or because they look at the actual winrates of the deck, or because they play decks that are favorable against quest rogue, or because they realise that in a rock paper scissors meta you'll always have a few matchups that are near unwinnable...

I'm playing since Naxramas.

This is the worst deck ever. There are many decks i like to play i just can't play anymore as it's an auto loss without fun, and others like secret mage or with dirty rat were i can make opponent concede relatively fast, and those games aren't that fun (although it's clearly nice to win against that quest).

Almost no interaction, and suddenly you get hit by charge buffed 5-5s.

Again the main problem is charge, with return in hand combo.

I'd like the quest to be changed. I think it's the first time i'm really hype for an errata...

Especially since it will stay in the meta for long.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from SlickRick >>

Simple. Because they play it.

Or because they look at the actual winrates of the deck, or because they play decks that are favorable against quest rogue, or because they realise that in a rock paper scissors meta you'll always have a few matchups that are near unwinnable...

Quote from WraithM >>

Not saying Control decks don't have a hard time against it but where do you get 5% from? Statistically DataReaper says the match up is 70/30% in favor of Crystal Rogue at worst for Control. Crystal Rogue's board clear options are mostly single target outside of Vanish, which requires being able to play something cheap alongside it to avoid giving the board initiative back to their opponent. Card advantage isn't unique to Rogue or this deck either, so I don't see what your point is about them being neutral. 

 

@ScaryKoolaid, that is a good question. The data for report 49 came from 73,000 recorded games played between May 17th and May 23rd. It is regarded as one of the better statistical reports, but questioning their source, the sample size, and the methods used to collect the data is great critical thinking. 

The win rates are mentioned in both links but the charts in the top link below are the easiest place to look at them and make comparisons. Dragon, Highlander, Miracle, and Silence are all tracked as a separate decks with varying amounts of games played with 100 games being the statistical minimum for inclusion. White squares indicate a match up with less than 100 recorded games, so it is not included because it is statistically not significant enough to be useful. Silence Priest does better than the other priest decks against Crystal Rogue in this sample, being close to 50/50 with a 47.08% win rate against it with 707 games recorded compared to Dragon Priest's 30.22% win rate against it with 370 games recorded.

• http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/matchup-chart-data-reaper-report/
• http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-49/

I understand now what you meant by "card neutral", that is a good CCG term. I was only familiar with the MTG equivalent, which is a cantrip card, which was typically a cheap spell that replaced itself by drawing another card while also having a minor effect. Card cycle seems pretty important to Crystal Rogue, and if they are conservative with their resources instead of over-committing into board clears I can understand how that would be frustrating. The trouble with board clears is that unless you manage to develop a threat alongside it you leave the initiative to your opponent and they can eventually out value you using the Crystal Core if not enough pressure is applied.

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from SlickRick >>

Simple. Because they play it.

Or because they look at the actual winrates of the deck, or because they play decks that are favorable against quest rogue, or because they realise that in a rock paper scissors meta you'll always have a few matchups that are near unwinnable...

 The wr was never the reason it was a problem.  The problem lies in the experience of playing against QR.  You're largely playing solitaire the entire time.  And there is no way to tech against it other than simply playing a different deck.  I am fine with losing most of the time with a control deck against QR.  I am fine with Freeze Mage losing most of the time to Control Warrior.  The difference is, with the latter, you could tweak your deck in such a way to at least increase your chances, even if you were still hugely unfavored.  Not so with QR.  There is no card or cards that can increase your chances, besides 30 different cards. 

For better or worse, the idea of decks that pursue their own gameplan isn't a new thing at all. Playing against Freeze Mage as Control Priest, Shaman, or Paladin was sitting there and trying to somehow race them before they assembled an OTK (which they almost always would, because most of those decks simply do not apply pressure); playing against Freeze Mage as board-centric Aggro (and I think Midrange outside of Combo Druid) was also an effort in futility. Miracle with Conceal had some very similar issues, but it would at least die to Aggro most of the time so no one really noticed. Control Priest in its own way was problematic because while it would interact with you, most of the answers and win conditions consisted of exhausting every single resource you laid out... which is why it's one of the most hated classes, even though it really hasn't been competitive until recently.

All of those could be at least teched against.  You could add in Eater of Secrets.  Back in the day you could save Chow/Flash Heal/Auchenai for burst as Priest.  Vs Control Priest you could always play around it or just play more 4-attack minions.  I'm not saying all of those decks could add in a single card that would suddenly make it a favorable matchup...but you could at least increase your chances. 

There is no card to tech vs QR.   You say there is:

You can actually tech your Control lists to beat Quest Rogue if you really wanted to

And which card(s)?  What are my options as Priest to tech in that will increase my chances (I don't even care if we're talking going from 10% wr to 11% wr, you make the claim, let's see you back it up)? 

@ShruteBucks; You could certainly tech in Eater of Secrets or (more accurate to the time frame) Kezan Mystic. Tell me how well that worked for people, because outside of Tournies where you're trying to target something it was an awful plan and you were better off forgetting the cards even existed. For those Control lists you generally simply wouldn't apply enough pressure to even be able to even be in a position where destroying Secrets would have mattered. 

Auchenai/Chow/Chow/Flash Heal/Circle was definitely a legitimate way to shore up the matchup with Handlock as Priest. Except you still generally died because Handlock could just avoid Jaraxxus once that got popular and beat you into the ground while you held onto your 5 card combo. It was not a tech against Freeze Mage, and it wouldn't have saved you against Anyfin Paladin. It really didn't save you against Malylock who basically just did Handlock things with a burn finisher. So I'll concede it made the matchups slightly more favorable, but if you think all of a sudden Priest was winning more than losing... I don't really see how.

The tech cards against Quest Rogue are legitimately just to have proactive threats, not unlike Jade Druid. And yes, most Control lists can be teching in proactive cards right now if they really wanted to lower their curve a little... but the Quest Rogue matchup is sparse enough on ladder and it weakens your list so substantially that it's not really worth it. In Priest's case, you're better off running with a Silence build. In Warrior's you've got access to stuff like Kor'kron Elite or Pirates (some Control lists were actually running N'Zoth's First Mate and Patches back in MSoG) to add some pressure at that lower end of your curve, and Dirty Rat to pull cards from their hand that you have a million ways to deal with. Shaman has a very reactive early curve unfortunately, but I've done alright by Hexing/Devolving their key cards and then trying to get something midrangey out with the time I bought. Control Paladin can easily be slanted to hybrid builds, it's one of the key reasons the class is so good right now. None of these are going to make you favored against Quest Rogue, mechanically Quest Rogue hits far too many weak points in Control's gameplan to do that; they are however options to shore up the weakness of being too passive without giving up a significant number of slots. None of these are worth bothering with simply to beat Quest Rogue, because that's the reality of the meta. 

Considering you suggested that a tech against Priest was simply to "run more 4-attack minions", it's not really any different of a concept.

Quote from SchruteBucks>>

There is no card to tech vs QR.   You say there is:

You can actually tech your Control lists to beat Quest Rogue if you really wanted to

And which card(s)?  What are my options as Priest to tech in that will increase my chances (I don't even care if we're talking going from 10% wr to 11% wr, you make the claim, let's see you back it up)? 

I think the rest of that sentence is pretty important to what I believe he meant.

@WraithM; oh certainly, I figured that was what he meant... it's just not really like Freeze Mages were ever super happy to see the matchup, even being teched for it. It was an awful, awful matchup in just about every way and I think I've only ever seen 2 Freeze Mages win in competitive play against a Control Warrior because of it. Which I think is generally okay, because Freeze Mage has (or had) a similar level of dominance in other areas and it balanced out.

I was also fine watching Freeze Mage lose horribly to Control Warrior because as a Control Priest main I was tired of getting burned in the face for my entire health total in one turn. It felt like sweet, sweet justice.

sigh

cannot be more clear than this.

What I am NOT saying: You should be able to tech any deck such that it goes from negative WR to positive WR vs any other deck.

What I AM saying: In the past, you could tech any deck such that it went from negative WR to slightly less negative WR vs any other deck.  You can't really do this for QR, and THAT is the complaint/concern about the deck. 

@ShruteBucks; I literally just told you how to do exactly that. Want a slightly better winrate as Control vs Quest Rogue? Put something in your deck that isn't reactive and mulligan for it to apply early pressure, on top of using your reactive tools appropriately. I'm not the one who's misreading anything.

Not sure I can be more clear about this either; if you're going to ask how to tech for something and then proceed to ignore a laundry list of suggestions, you're not really trying that hard to beat Quest Rogue. Which would be a fine approach, if the complaint wasn't "but but but there's no way to tech for it". 

A more proactive minion or set of minions doesn't really cut it.  I will test it out and report back for the sake of being thorough.  Your WR plummets to almost 0% once they complete the quest though.  

Yeah, that's probably the one issue I do agree is a bit different with Quest Rogue since their clock is a lot more compressed compared to a lot of other lists. For the most part though it's still been the case that setting up a board early on is a big deal for forcing them into an awkward position if they ignore your board to rush the quest, assuming you don't have some creative ways (and Priest does) for stopping the Fire Flys from getting spammed via Igneous Elemental. Vanish is just something I don't think you can play around as well.

If Priest is your focus I think Silence builds really are the way to go right now if you want to handle most of the field. Since it's a more midrangey build with Inner Fire/Divine Spirit to steal games you can still take a Control approach against pure Aggro and be flexible enough to beat up stuff like Jade Druid.  

@SchruteBucks, while good early game threats aren't Eater of Secrets-level tech cards, if they improve your chances from a negative WR to a slightly less negative WR, they would technically still count as tech cards because they are both fulfilling the same function.

For example, Silence Priest does better than the other Priest lists against Crystal Rogue because they have cheap Silence combos with Ancient Watcher and Humongous Razorleaf that they can use to apply pressure early, and so I would agree with Tze on that recommendation.

In other words, "play an entirely different deck."

You don't just tech in Humongous Razorleaf + Silence.  You create Silence Priest, an entirely different deck. 

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

In other words, "play an entirely different deck."

 You don't just tech in Humongous Razorleaf + Silence.  You create Silence Priest, an entirely different deck. 

The winrate is really less than 50%?

I asking because the refined list of quest rogue can delay aggro well with glacial shard and vanish and if the deck don't win more than 50% why I see so many of them? Like 1 of 5 games is vs quest rogue...

Quote from hillandder >>

The winrate is really less than 50%?

I asking because the refined list of quest rogue can delay aggro well with glacial shard and vanish and if the deck don't win more than 50% why I see so many of them? Like 1 of 5 games is vs quest rogue...

I just realised that another anti-battlecry card like Nerubian Weblord could solve some of the issues.