Hearthpwn

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Nicholasjh >>

Though I think he does have an aspect of non-randomness - it seems like whatever you target will not get hit. so if there is one minion on board and your face - if you target the minion with your minion, it will hit face every time. so it actually bypasses big taunts which is kind of interesting.

 Nope, not how it works. Mayor Noggenfogger can and sometimes does allow you to hit the thing you targeted. Just because you haven't seen a thing, doesn't mean that thing never happens.

As for the complaints about the wording "All targets are chosen randomly," the word random is right there. It's important to distinguish between the act of targeting and the concept of "target," as in "recipient of an effect." Under Noggenfogger, effects are no longer "targeted," per se. They are "chosen randomly," which is the exact opposite of "targeted." Targets (recipients of effects) that are chosen randomly have always ignored taunt and stealth, even if they have other targeting rules (such as enemy, friendly, or minions in general).

In other words, taunt and stealth keep a thing from being "targeted," but they don't remove it from the list of legal targets. The protected entity is still a legal recipient for effects; the keyword only prevents you from selecting it during the targeting step.

Not entirely off topic, but I saw one about Mayor Noggenfogger and I had to post this...I got tired of Noggenfogger's shenanigans and I DE'd him.  Good riddance. I know he's supposed to be a fun card, and he kinda was, but I lost several games because of him (not unlike dying to my own Yogg) so it was time for the Mayor and I to part ways. Permanently. 

On the plus-side, I was able to use his dust to craft a Golden Ragnaros before YoM begins, so at least he was good for something.

Quote from YJHS2000 >>

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Nicholasjh >>

Though I think he does have an aspect of non-randomness - it seems like whatever you target will not get hit. so if there is one minion on board and your face - if you target the minion with your minion, it will hit face every time. so it actually bypasses big taunts which is kind of interesting.

 Nope, not how it works. Mayor Noggenfogger can and sometimes does allow you to hit the thing you targeted. Just because you haven't seen a thing, doesn't mean that thing never happens.

As for the complaints about the wording "All targets are chosen randomly," the word random is right there. It's important to distinguish between the act of targeting and the concept of "target," as in "recipient of an effect." Under Noggenfogger, effects are no longer "targeted," per se. They are "chosen randomly," which is the exact opposite of "targeted." Targets (recipients of effects) that are chosen randomly have always ignored taunt and stealth, even if they have other targeting rules (such as enemy, friendly, or minions in general).

In other words, taunt and stealth keep a thing from being "targeted," but they don't remove it from the list of legal targets. The protected entity is still a legal recipient for effects; the keyword only prevents you from selecting it during the targeting step.

 Except, again, that's not true.  If you cast Shadow Word: Death, and the mayor is the only minion with 5+ attack on the board, it will hit him 100% of the time.  That is not random because Noggernfogger affects targeting ("targets chosen randomly"), unlike other cards that apply randomness after targeting (like ogres).  What's inconsistent is that Noggenfogger applies filters to spells so that they can never hit targets that would normally be invalid, yet it allows minions to hit some targets that would otherwise be invalid.

If you take yourexact same statement and replace it with attacking, it's no longer true, which is why Noggenfogger is inconsistent.  Take the scenario where I have Tirion, and Noggenfogger, and my opponent has a stealthed Shaku:

The recipient of the spell Shadow Word: Death attack by Tirion is randomly selected from the list of legal recipients of that spell attack. In your hypothetical, that list contains exactly one member [opposing hero]. If Noggenfogger the opposing hero were somehow stealthed, you wouldn't be able to cast the spell attack at all because stealth would prevent you from selecting the only legal recipient.

Who knows if stealthed heroes is something we will see.  Regardless, the point is that Noggenfogger behaves different for spells than for attacks, which is confusing and makes the card worthless.

Quote from YJHS2000 >>

If you take yourexact same statement and replace it with attacking, it's no longer true, which is why Noggenfogger is inconsistent.  Take the scenario where I have Tirion, and Noggenfogger, and my opponent has a stealthed Shaku:

The recipient of the spell Shadow Word: Death attack by Tirion is randomly selected from the list of legal recipients of that spell attack. In your hypothetical, that list contains exactly one member [opposing hero]. If Noggenfogger the opposing hero were somehow stealthed, you wouldn't be able to cast the spell attack at all because stealth would prevent you from selecting the only legal recipient.

Who knows if stealthed heroes is something we will see.  Regardless, the point is that Noggenfogger behaves different for spells than for attacks, which is confusing and makes the card worthless.

Am I the only one that thinks after looking at quite a few noggenfogger videos that he chooses the initial target way too often?

Just watched kripps latest video and again I felt like the initially selected target was being randomly chosen on average more times than any other target even when there was 12+ possible ones on the board.

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from YJHS2000 >>

If you take yourexact same statement and replace it with attacking, it's no longer true, which is why Noggenfogger is inconsistent.  Take the scenario where I have Tirion, and Noggenfogger, and my opponent has a stealthed Shaku:

The recipient of the spell Shadow Word: Death attack by Tirion is randomly selected from the list of legal recipients of that spell attack. In your hypothetical, that list contains exactly one member [opposing hero]. If Noggenfogger the opposing hero were somehow stealthed, you wouldn't be able to cast the spell attack at all because stealth would prevent you from selecting the only legal recipient.

Who knows if stealthed heroes is something we will see.  Regardless, the point is that Noggenfogger behaves different for spells than for attacks, which is confusing and makes the card worthless.

 You've missed an important point. Stealth does not change what is or is not a legal recipient. Stealth only prevents you from selecting something.

The recipient of the attack by Tirion is randomly selected from the list of legal recipients. That list ALWAYS includes ALL enemy minions and the enemy hero. Stealth does not remove anything from that list. Stealth only keeps you from selecting Shaku when you enter the action.

Therefore you can make the attack by selecting the opposing hero as your target. The recipient of the attack is then randomly chosen from a list of two: the hero and Shaku.

 

And no, spells are not treated differently. If you want to cast a spell at a stealthed minion, you will not be able to select it. But it could still be randomly selected as the recipient as long as it meets any criteria specified by the spell. (Again, stealth does not remove anything from the list of legal recipients. That's why Arcane Missiles is so great)

 

if he is bribed pay him more.

My experience with Mayor Noggenfogger yesterday (he was played by my opponent in the Tavern Brawl) was that he almost never hit the initial target that I picked.  I honestly think it is as random as they say it is...there's no way to know who you're going to hit when attacking with Noggenfogger on the board.

Quote from YJHS2000 >>

 Incorrect again. Targeted spells under Noggenfogger will never hit stealthed minions (Yogg works the same).  Let me make this as simple as possible:  When using a targeted spell under Noggenfogger, you must 1) pick a target, and then 2) the randomness occurs.  But the spell will never hit a character that could not have been selected in step 1 (including stealth minions, minions with "cannot be targeted by..." and characters that don't meet whatever requirements might be on the spell).  Likewise for minions,  you must 1) pick a target, and then 2) the randomness occurs.  But here, your minions can hit some characters that could not have been selected in step 1, namely, you can hit enemy stealth minions and enemy characters behind taunt, but cannot hit any friendly minions.

What blizzard seems to have done is simply copied the orge mechanic (with 100% randomness) without specifying that the attacks are limited to enemies, as is stated on every ogre card.  This is my problem.  Minions should either 1) be able to hit friendlies or 2) not be able to hit stealth enemies or enemies behind taunt.  Right now, the card makes no sense.