First of all, I'm not here to complain, in my opinion Kel'Thuzad is an AWESOME card and I have been having a lot of fun with it, also I don't know if this is a topic that has been discussed before but I haven't seen any in the forums so, here it goes.
This is what I've been playing for the past few days (great deck btw), every time I play Kel'Thuzad I manage to set a taunt wall with Sludge Belchers and/or Sunwalkers and in every occasion (8 times so far) my opponents just surrender after 1-3 turns, most of them just can't deal with all the taunts, not to mention all the Haunted Creepers and Harvest Golems that go with them.
I was just wondering, can this be considered OP? or people just come out of more efficient ways of dealing with the guy? because so far, every time I've played Kel'Thuzad it has been an instant win.
I'll admit my deck isn't as well-constructed as that, but I've lost even after playing KT (and getting decent value).
I've also had games where KT just sits in my hand the whole time if my opponent has kept me from building up my board (again, might be easier for a deck like that with so many hard-to-remove threats).
Naah in order for Kt to be able to do Something you should have board control first, if you Play KT with nothing on your side to back him up he's just a big Sitting duck,
I think KT is great in the current meta simply because of the lack of removal. Simply put, there are not many shamans on the ladder, and most mages don't carry polymorph anymore, therefore there is not any hard spell removal other than deadly shot or SW:D to counter him. If you have board control with good taunts like sunwalker, then KT is unstoppable.
KT is a win more card. As said, it does nothing on an empty board and you are able to seal a game where you have board presence already - and then you need taunts to protect him as it will draw attention.
KT isn't a win more card -- it allows you to throw your entire board against an enemy's board with no repercussions because you get your board back for free. Without KT, your opponent would be very hesitant to give up their board to remove yours if it means they lose all of their minions too. It's a stupidly powerful card because it works immediately when it comes out. It effectively gives all of your minions a "resurrect this minion" on top of a 6/8 body.
KT isn't a win more card -- it allows you to throw your entire board against an enemy's board with no repercussions because you get your board back for free. Without KT, your opponent would be very hesitant to give up their board to remove yours if it means they lose all of their minions too. It's a stupidly powerful card because it works immediately when it comes out. It effectively gives all of your minions a "resurrect this minion" on top of a 6/8 body.
I think that's kind of what people mean by "win more" in this situation. You've got a slight lead if the boards are even and it's your turn, so the advantage is already in your favor. KT just swings the game heavily in your favor given those circumstances. But you can't play KT on an empty field and expect it to change the direction of the game (as opposed to something like Grommash or Ragnaros).
Win more cards tend to be underwhelming in situations of relative parity and are strictly rubbish while behind. Kel'Thuzad is meh when you're behind but it can absolutely convert parity into a game winning position.
Definitely not win more.
Also, if we're looking at a list of OP cards, Kel'Thuzad is pretty far down that list. There are plenty of things to address before they look at that.
Like many other cards KT feels like a "win more" card except in very few situations. To get use of it you already need board control in most cases, and if you have board control you're likely already in favour of winning the game. It feels and looks to be a good card, but in reality it doesn't really help you win a game you haven't already won. That's my take on it.
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it will be really hard for an 8 mana card to not be blatantly OP in this game.
With that said Kel'Thuzad is about as close as I think we can get (especially considering the set he was in).
As Shaboogen said: it can absolutely convert parity into a game winning position.Definitely not win more.
Very powerful card with a very rewarding effect when used properly. It needs to be played around but when it even works out with 1 creature (a sunwalker in the OP's case ir in my case a Cairn, Earth Elemental or Sylvanas!
I think KT is great in the current meta simply because of the lack of removal. Simply put, there are not many shamans on the ladder, and most mages don't carry polymorph anymore, therefore there is not any hard spell removal other than deadly shot or SW:D to counter him. If you have board control with good taunts like sunwalker, then KT is unstoppable.
Any recent meta priest deck would counter this easily. Generally I end up using Sylvannas Windrunner & Shadow Word: Death on this; if I'm lucky with a Baron Rivendare still up. The play is dead obvious because of how slow the play is. If the board is filled, I will just cry and Shadow Word: Death him. Kel'Thuzad has brought merit back to carrying two [card]shadow word: death[/card], and perhaps even Mind Control
Short answer: ye Long answer: the shaman double Kel'Thuzad combo (reincarnate) is extremely powerfull even with an empty board. Silence doesn't help much as you can reactivate it with reincarnate/ancestral spirit.
You would have to be a badass to get a KT down and follow it up with shinanigans like that. Or your opponent is just bad.
Normally, I would agree...but then, I killed 3 at once as a mage, so...I do think that Kel is perhaps a little...poorly thought out, but it's like a fair number of cards in the current meta. Leeroy, Gadgetzan, or Loatheb. They are arguably OP, but they have their counters and smart players are aware that they could be coming out and prepare accordingly. So...eh, maybe. The shaman combo does make it more frustrating, admittedly.
I just did some testing. Fun facts: If you use Force of Nature with Kel'Thuzad and attack face, the treants die and stay dead. But if they die to other minions, then the come back at the end of the turn. It makes sense from a phase resolution standpoint, but I wasn't sure how it would work in practice.
Not sure if anyone said this already, but I during one of my games I had kel on the field and power overwhelming a Loatheb. Kel's ability activated first, THEN Loatheb died and stayed dead. Sooooo...be careful with Power Overwhelming.
The card that is played first always activates first. Works the same way with Sylvanas, and other "activate" effects. So since I am assuming you played KT before PO there is nothing strange about this. If you'd have played PO and THEN KT then Loatheb would have been re summoned.
Not sure if anyone said this already, but I during one of my games I had kel on the field and power overwhelming a Loatheb. Kel's ability activated first, THEN Loatheb died and stayed dead. Sooooo...be careful with Power Overwhelming.
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First of all, I'm not here to complain, in my opinion Kel'Thuzad is an AWESOME card and I have been having a lot of fun with it, also I don't know if this is a topic that has been discussed before but I haven't seen any in the forums so, here it goes.
This is what I've been playing for the past few days (great deck btw), every time I play Kel'Thuzad I manage to set a taunt wall with Sludge Belchers and/or Sunwalkers and in every occasion (8 times so far) my opponents just surrender after 1-3 turns, most of them just can't deal with all the taunts, not to mention all the Haunted Creepers and Harvest Golems that go with them.
I was just wondering, can this be considered OP? or people just come out of more efficient ways of dealing with the guy? because so far, every time I've played Kel'Thuzad it has been an instant win.
Obviously KT is a huge hard removal target, but if you had to burn those before he comes out, then you would be pretty screwed
I'll admit my deck isn't as well-constructed as that, but I've lost even after playing KT (and getting decent value).
I've also had games where KT just sits in my hand the whole time if my opponent has kept me from building up my board (again, might be easier for a deck like that with so many hard-to-remove threats).
Naah in order for Kt to be able to do Something you should have board control first, if you Play KT with nothing on your side to back him up he's just a big Sitting duck,
I think KT is great in the current meta simply because of the lack of removal. Simply put, there are not many shamans on the ladder, and most mages don't carry polymorph anymore, therefore there is not any hard spell removal other than deadly shot or SW:D to counter him. If you have board control with good taunts like sunwalker, then KT is unstoppable.
Don't Complain, Use Your Brain!
KT is a win more card. As said, it does nothing on an empty board and you are able to seal a game where you have board presence already - and then you need taunts to protect him as it will draw attention.
KT isn't a win more card -- it allows you to throw your entire board against an enemy's board with no repercussions because you get your board back for free. Without KT, your opponent would be very hesitant to give up their board to remove yours if it means they lose all of their minions too. It's a stupidly powerful card because it works immediately when it comes out. It effectively gives all of your minions a "resurrect this minion" on top of a 6/8 body.
Earth Shock, Ironbeak Owl,Silence, Spellbreaker, Keeper of the Grove, Mass Dispel, Polymorph, and Hex are guaranteed to stop the ability of Kel'Thuzad. Several cards that have a chance of stopping him are Execute, if played correctly by warriors, and Ragnaros the Firelord, if lucky.
So no he is not over powered, he can be stopped.
I think that's kind of what people mean by "win more" in this situation. You've got a slight lead if the boards are even and it's your turn, so the advantage is already in your favor. KT just swings the game heavily in your favor given those circumstances. But you can't play KT on an empty field and expect it to change the direction of the game (as opposed to something like Grommash or Ragnaros).
Win more cards tend to be underwhelming in situations of relative parity and are strictly rubbish while behind. Kel'Thuzad is meh when you're behind but it can absolutely convert parity into a game winning position.
Definitely not win more.
Also, if we're looking at a list of OP cards, Kel'Thuzad is pretty far down that list. There are plenty of things to address before they look at that.
Like many other cards KT feels like a "win more" card except in very few situations. To get use of it you already need board control in most cases, and if you have board control you're likely already in favour of winning the game. It feels and looks to be a good card, but in reality it doesn't really help you win a game you haven't already won. That's my take on it.
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I agree with pretty much everything posted here except the rag part.
With the way the mechanics work, if rag snipes KT, KT (and the whole board) respawns since both cards activate "at the end of the turn"
This can be seen in the latest funny/lucky videos
Do I think it is strong? yes. Does it need a little adjustement? Maybe. Is it OP? Nah.
it will be really hard for an 8 mana card to not be blatantly OP in this game.
With that said Kel'Thuzad is about as close as I think we can get (especially considering the set he was in).
As Shaboogen said: it can absolutely convert parity into a game winning position. Definitely not win more.
Very powerful card with a very rewarding effect when used properly. It needs to be played around but when it even works out with 1 creature (a sunwalker in the OP's case ir in my case a Cairn, Earth Elemental or Sylvanas!
Any recent meta priest deck would counter this easily. Generally I end up using Sylvannas Windrunner & Shadow Word: Death on this; if I'm lucky with a Baron Rivendare still up. The play is dead obvious because of how slow the play is. If the board is filled, I will just cry and Shadow Word: Death him. Kel'Thuzad has brought merit back to carrying two [card]shadow word: death[/card], and perhaps even Mind Control
You would have to be a badass to get a KT down and follow it up with shinanigans like that. Or your opponent is just bad.
Normally, I would agree...but then, I killed 3 at once as a mage, so...I do think that Kel is perhaps a little...poorly thought out, but it's like a fair number of cards in the current meta. Leeroy, Gadgetzan, or Loatheb. They are arguably OP, but they have their counters and smart players are aware that they could be coming out and prepare accordingly. So...eh, maybe. The shaman combo does make it more frustrating, admittedly.
I just did some testing. Fun facts: If you use Force of Nature with Kel'Thuzad and attack face, the treants die and stay dead. But if they die to other minions, then the come back at the end of the turn. It makes sense from a phase resolution standpoint, but I wasn't sure how it would work in practice.
Very good point!
It's all about end of turn triggers. This is working as intended.
End of turn will check for Kel'Thuzad's ability, then the Treant's ability. So they die after the check occurred.
But in the case you describe they die and the trigger checks for them so they return.
We should really make a comprehensive trigger thread.
Not sure if anyone said this already, but I during one of my games I had kel on the field and power overwhelming a Loatheb. Kel's ability activated first, THEN Loatheb died and stayed dead. Sooooo...be careful with Power Overwhelming.
The card that is played first always activates first. Works the same way with Sylvanas, and other "activate" effects. So since I am assuming you played KT before PO there is nothing strange about this. If you'd have played PO and THEN KT then Loatheb would have been re summoned.
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