Hearthpwn

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

 But you literally wrote that it was good that jade idol kept fatigue decks from "being OP". Why is jaded idol needed if they aren't OP, have never been OP and wasn't looking to be OP anytime soon? And why are you suddenly backtracking and moderating yourself?

But again, this entire discussion is exceptionally dishonest and disingenious... because we haven't had viable fatigue decks in standard since its inception. We've had some value decks that might go to fatigue if they a slow deck, and that's it. Literally the only "fatigue games" at a competitive level would be two slow decks that met.

So you guys are literally just re-naming an archetype to make it sound bad, instead of arguing in good faith. 

 

 

Jade Idol isn't a broken card, it just becomes valuable overtime if you keep summoning jade golem . The card itself is not broken and doesn't need nerf and the jade golem mechanic doesn't either. It's just that sometimes druid decks can have braggy tempo swings like, fandral into this and that or auctioneer and then innervate, etc. That's hearthstone in general, cards that have huge value and can generate tempo like that is what we could consider broken.

Jade Idol in any case kind of falls into that category, this card for 1-mana can bring forth a huge minion if you take the time to set it up but that's the thing, it takes time. Kind of like freeze mage and miracle rogue. Only other difference is that jade druids can dominate late game but freeze mage and miracle only has burst to finish the opponent off.

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

 But you literally wrote that it was good that jade idol kept fatigue decks from "being OP". Why is jaded idol needed if they aren't OP, have never been OP and wasn't looking to be OP anytime soon? And why are you suddenly backtracking and moderating yourself?

But again, this entire discussion is exceptionally dishonest and disingenious... because we haven't had viable fatigue decks in standard since its inception. We've had some value decks that might go to fatigue if they a slow deck, and that's it. Literally the only "fatigue games" at a competitive level would be two slow decks that met.

So you guys are literally just re-naming an archetype to make it sound bad, instead of arguing in good faith. 

 

 

 Read what you said, but unironically and directed at yourself.

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

Quote from maroon5five >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

 In what meta, ever in HS history, has a fatigue deck been "OP"?

Not that it matters for this discussion. Labeling every late-game value deck with a control basis as "fatigue" is as dishonest and disingenuous as it gets.

But by all means, give cards like jade idol to warrior, paladin, mage and priest. I think the amount of whining would make Hearthpwn crash.

 

 

 Hearthstone has never had an OP fatigue deck and I never said it did. When designing a properly balanced game you should think about the future, not just about the current or past metas. Too many games (and Hearthstone is a huge offender of this) don't think far enough into the future and end up causing issues down the road because they failed to future proof their design.

 But you literally wrote that it was good that jade idol kept fatigue decks from "being OP". Why is jaded idol needed if they aren't OP, have never been OP and wasn't looking to be OP anytime soon? And why are you suddenly backtracking and moderating yourself?

But again, this entire discussion is exceptionally dishonest and disingenious... because we haven't had viable fatigue decks in standard since its inception. We've had some value decks that might go to fatigue if they met a slow deck, and that's it. Literally the only "fatigue games" at a competitive level would be two slow decks that met. Other than that, fatigue decks were meme decks at best.

So you guys are literally just re-naming an archetype to make it sound bad, instead of arguing in good faith. 

 

Quote from Tze >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

Quote from maroon5five >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

 In what meta, ever in HS history, has a fatigue deck been "OP"?

Not that it matters for this discussion. Labeling every late-game value deck with a control basis as "fatigue" is as dishonest and disingenuous as it gets.

But by all means, give cards like jade idol to warrior, paladin, mage and priest. I think the amount of whining would make Hearthpwn crash.

 

 

 Hearthstone has never had an OP fatigue deck and I never said it did. When designing a properly balanced game you should think about the future, not just about the current or past metas. Too many games (and Hearthstone is a huge offender of this) don't think far enough into the future and end up causing issues down the road because they failed to future proof their design.

 But you literally wrote that it was good that jade idol kept fatigue decks from "being OP". Why is jaded idol needed if they aren't OP, have never been OP and wasn't looking to be OP anytime soon? And why are you suddenly backtracking and moderating yourself?

But again, this entire discussion is exceptionally dishonest and disingenious... because we haven't had viable fatigue decks in standard since its inception. We've had some value decks that might go to fatigue if they met a slow deck, and that's it. Literally the only "fatigue games" at a competitive level would be two slow decks that met. Other than that, fatigue decks were meme decks at best.

So you guys are literally just re-naming an archetype to make it sound bad, instead of arguing in good faith. 

 

 It's okay, I'll try to spell this out again since you seem to still be under the impression that Standard Control Warrior isn't built for fatigue; what threats do you run in a list that has Elise and Justicar? Generally Gromm. Generally Sylvanas maybe? Rag is potentially an option I suppose. Essentially it was built with the idea that you grind your opponent out of resources, which very much means you're gearing for Fatigue; you don't care about the early or midgame, and you don't even mind their late game... all that matters is that you stock enough removal/survival to get to the end with 40+ armor and potential to turn a hand full of removal you weren't penalized for not having to use into Legendaries. This is possibly an oversimplification of the list, but Grinder Mage is the same way and Control Priest is essentially a worse version of it; they're legitimately looking to win by controlling the game, which in HS equates to both slow decks going to fatigue by your own admission. 

I'm not renaming the archetype, a deck geared for Fatigue is a completely legitimate subset of Control and I can absolutely respect that people enjoy them and prefer that playstyle; however Jade Druid is legitimately never going to run out of resources, so that gameplan is moot by whatever name you call it. You're essentially better suited to take your Golden Monkey and snap-play it (which by all means is probably not correct) than to continue trying to manage the board since their lategame is directly opposed to your plan of running them dry of resources. Your definition of "value" decks is the no different than what we're calling "decks with a fatigue gameplan", or if we really need an accurate term we can just steal Kibler's use of the "attrition deck".

We are arguing in good faith, we're not moving goalposts at all even if you don't agree with our terminology; if you play a deck that is light on threats, you will lose a vast majority of the time. Pre-MSoG Control Warrior is light on threats, so when it can't grind out the opponent it folds. Renolock is a Control deck that's actually very heavy on threats without really making any new or interesting tech choices, so the solid all-around variants of the list end up being a solid 50% to win the matchup. So call it whatever you'd like; value, fatigue, attrition are all losing gameplans against the deck, and it's not unhealthy to have that kind of playstyle have a hard counter. 

We WILL get more removal. Eventually the true Fatigue decks will actually be feasible because you can legitimately run 30 stalls/answers, and it's not that far away from now when we have Warlock who's up to what, 7 AoEs and 3-4 single target removals in Standard alone (only counting class cards)? Priest and Mage are following pretty close behind, and while Jade Druid is mediocre in Standard we could easily need something like it in Wild in a year or two. I don't think this is the only reason to create the card, or even the driving force... but it's something to consider when considering the viability of true fatigue decks.

I'm being deliberately dishonest how? And the key difference between Jade Idol and something that's okay with going to fatigue is that Jade Druid isn't trying to win with attrition; it'll combo out as early as it can and keep chugging along, it doesn't have any intention of sticking around for you to run out of cards, it just happens that it will never have to worry about their own deck running out of cards if you should make it that long. You can't say the same thing for Control Warrior, they're really not working towards a set goal with the Standard list; they WANT you to play something, then they react, then you rinse/repeat until your resources are exhausted and the Control Warrior is sitting in a position where they can either just Armor/pass or play one of the few threats they have. It's completely a deck predicated on grinding your resources out, which is exactly the mindset of a deck that builds and plays for Fatigue even if it's not going to get to that point in the game 75% of the time.

It's complete bullshit to pin them lacking threats on having to answer Shaman; they haven't run heavy threats in that list since LoE, and nothing has changed in that list because the gameplan overall hasn't had to change. You armor up, remove their threats with value in mind, repeat until all that's left is to armor up and clean up what's left. And even then, regardless of WHY Control Warrior was running less threats, it's no excuse to not identify that either way it needs to increase what it currently has for board presence or it needs to deal with simply being one of the easiest decks for Jade Druid to roll over. And then the players of that deck need to accept that the reason they're losing the Jade matchup isn't some mean game designer, but them for picking a list that clearly is severely unfavored instead of a list that matches up better while still being solid across the field.

All I know is that if these responses are from Control players who are struggling with Jade Druid to the point it's a 90/10 matchup instead of the 60/40 it should be, it has everything to do with being unable or unwilling to become a better player. It's up to you if you want to fold your arms and give up prematurely, but don't expect me to consider that decision anything but being a bad player in multiple senses of the word.

Quote from Tze >>

I'm being deliberately dishonest how? And the key difference between Jade Idol and something that's okay with going to fatigue is that Jade Druid isn't trying to win with attrition; it'll combo out as early as it can and keep chugging along, it doesn't have any intention of sticking around for you to run out of cards, it just happens that it will never have to worry about their own deck running out of cards if you should make it that long. You can't say the same thing for Control Warrior, they're really not working towards a set goal with the Standard list; they WANT you to play something, then they react, then you rinse/repeat until your resources are exhausted and the Control Warrior is sitting in a position where they can either just Armor/pass or play one of the few threats they have. It's completely a deck predicated on grinding your resources out, which is exactly the mindset of a deck that builds and plays for Fatigue even if it's not going to get to that point in the game 75% of the time.

It's complete bullshit to pin them lacking threats on having to answer Shaman; they haven't run heavy threats in that list since LoE, and nothing has changed in that list because the gameplan overall hasn't had to change. You armor up, remove their threats with value in mind, repeat until all that's left is to armor up and clean up what's left. And even then, regardless of WHY Control Warrior was running less threats, it's no excuse to not identify that either way it needs to increase what it currently has for board presence or it needs to deal with simply being one of the easiest decks for Jade Druid to roll over. And then the players of that deck need to accept that the reason they're losing the Jade matchup isn't some mean game designer, but them for picking a list that clearly is severely unfavored instead of a list that matches up better while still being solid across the field.

All I know is that if these responses are from Control players who are struggling with Jade Druid to the point it's a 90/10 matchup instead of the 60/40 it should be, it has everything to do with being unable or unwilling to become a better player. It's up to you if you want to fold your arms and give up prematurely, but don't expect me to consider that decision anything but being a bad player in multiple senses of the word.

Hehe, yeah 60/40... you can call me a bad player all day long mate, but at least I don't sit here and lie with a straight face.

Your comments on shaman are funny indeed. That's literally the only reason CW has run so light on threats.

You seem to be honestly convinced a deck with a ton of cycle was a fatigue deck though. What happened, did some CW out-armour you in a casual game and you decided fatigue was BS?

Have a nice life.

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

Quote from maroon5five >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

 In what meta, ever in HS history, has a fatigue deck been "OP"?

Not that it matters for this discussion. Labeling every late-game value deck with a control basis as "fatigue" is as dishonest and disingenuous as it gets.

But by all means, give cards like jade idol to warrior, paladin, mage and priest. I think the amount of whining would make Hearthpwn crash.

 

 

 Hearthstone has never had an OP fatigue deck and I never said it did. When designing a properly balanced game you should think about the future, not just about the current or past metas. Too many games (and Hearthstone is a huge offender of this) don't think far enough into the future and end up causing issues down the road because they failed to future proof their design.

 But you literally wrote that it was good that jade idol kept fatigue decks from "being OP". Why is jaded idol needed if they aren't OP, have never been OP and wasn't looking to be OP anytime soon? And why are you suddenly backtracking and moderating yourself?

But again, this entire discussion is exceptionally dishonest and disingenious... because we haven't had viable fatigue decks in standard since its inception. We've had some value decks that might go to fatigue if they met a slow deck, and that's it. Literally the only "fatigue games" at a competitive level would be two slow decks that met. Other than that, fatigue decks were meme decks at best.

So you guys are literally just re-naming an archetype to make it sound bad, instead of arguing in good faith. 

 

Quote from maroon5five >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

Quote from maroon5five >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

 In what meta, ever in HS history, has a fatigue deck been "OP"?

Not that it matters for this discussion. Labeling every late-game value deck with a control basis as "fatigue" is as dishonest and disingenuous as it gets.

But by all means, give cards like jade idol to warrior, paladin, mage and priest. I think the amount of whining would make Hearthpwn crash.

 

 

 Hearthstone has never had an OP fatigue deck and I never said it did. When designing a properly balanced game you should think about the future, not just about the current or past metas. Too many games (and Hearthstone is a huge offender of this) don't think far enough into the future and end up causing issues down the road because they failed to future proof their design.

 But you literally wrote that it was good that jade idol kept fatigue decks from "being OP". Why is jaded idol needed if they aren't OP, have never been OP and wasn't looking to be OP anytime soon? And why are you suddenly backtracking and moderating yourself?

But again, this entire discussion is exceptionally dishonest and disingenious... because we haven't had viable fatigue decks in standard since its inception. We've had some value decks that might go to fatigue if they met a slow deck, and that's it. Literally the only "fatigue games" at a competitive level would be two slow decks that met. Other than that, fatigue decks were meme decks at best.

So you guys are literally just re-naming an archetype to make it sound bad, instead of arguing in good faith. 

 

 I did literally write that Jade Idol keeps fatigue decks from being OP. That is a 100% factual statement. There doesn't have to be an OP fatigue deck right now or in the past for that statement to be correct. There was no backtracking or moderating myself. Maybe you should reread my comment as it seems like you misunderstood the entire comment. No where did I claim that fatigue decks would be OP without Jade Idol.

I like this a lot, actually. It brings in a more decision making element and rewards more skilled players. At the same time, it makes it so that Druid can't endlessly summon golems.

10/10 would play

Quote from Ventoreck >>

Jade Idol is in a wierd spot. I belive this would be better suited.

1 (2) Mana - Spell

Summon a Jade Golem with Taunt  OR discover a Jade Golem card.

I believe this is the correct way to fix the card. It lets you choose wether to have a chance to discover a good Jade Golem card OR summon an instant taunt minion that can help you against aggro. 

(With the first option you can hold on to it and use against aggro for a clutch taunt minion.)

The other option lets you have a chance to get removal (Lightning, Shurken,) Sticky Minions (Aya, And Swarmer) Weapon with hero Power (Claws) Or Taunt (Cheiftan, Sentry)

Thoughts? I believe this is a much better card. With lots of versatility, or skill.

It is still possible to play fatigue warrior, since they always have alternative win condition. Just like all deck, they have weaker matchups. Destroying 1 win condition of the opponent isn't anything new, it is just that this is the first time that one card did it by itself. From the level of aggro deck at the moment, I feel like the power level is fine. Although I find that deck identity does get destroyed by Jade Golem this season, since Patch and Jade Golems cards are almost auto-included in rogue/shaman/druid decks these days. I think current issue is that Pirates and Jade Golem faction's cards are too deck defining and definitely should've been on lower power level for Shaman and Druid- and that rogue should've gotten better class cards that would actually contest with Jade Golem cards. 

This card has single-handedly forced an aggro meta. Control warrior shits on every aggro deck used right now, but infinite growing golems is nigh impossible to keep dealing with.

A single card defining the entire meta simply should NOT happen.

Quote from Falbrogna >>

Quote from maroon5five >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

Quote from maroon5five >>

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

 In what meta, ever in HS history, has a fatigue deck been "OP"?

Not that it matters for this discussion. Labeling every late-game value deck with a control basis as "fatigue" is as dishonest and disingenuous as it gets.

But by all means, give cards like jade idol to warrior, paladin, mage and priest. I think the amount of whining would make Hearthpwn crash.

 

 

 Hearthstone has never had an OP fatigue deck and I never said it did. When designing a properly balanced game you should think about the future, not just about the current or past metas. Too many games (and Hearthstone is a huge offender of this) don't think far enough into the future and end up causing issues down the road because they failed to future proof their design.

 But you literally wrote that it was good that jade idol kept fatigue decks from "being OP". Why is jaded idol needed if they aren't OP, have never been OP and wasn't looking to be OP anytime soon? And why are you suddenly backtracking and moderating yourself?

But again, this entire discussion is exceptionally dishonest and disingenious... because we haven't had viable fatigue decks in standard since its inception. We've had some value decks that might go to fatigue if they met a slow deck, and that's it. Literally the only "fatigue games" at a competitive level would be two slow decks that met. Other than that, fatigue decks were meme decks at best.

So you guys are literally just re-naming an archetype to make it sound bad, instead of arguing in good faith. 

 

 I did literally write that Jade Idol keeps fatigue decks from being OP. That is a 100% factual statement. There doesn't have to be an OP fatigue deck right now or in the past for that statement to be correct. There was no backtracking or moderating myself. Maybe you should reread my comment as it seems like you misunderstood the entire comment. No where did I claim that fatigue decks would be OP without Jade Idol.

This is incorrect, Jade Idol keeps fatigue decks from being viable. They've never been OP to begin with.

http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-29/

here we go as people said in the thread , control warrior is out of the meta , In meta this agressive people can't play the most consistent health gaining control deck . 

Too many people in this forum with inflated ego and little to no knowledge about card game defends an obviously toxic card . 

Quote from CH3CH2OH >>

http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-29/

here we go as people said in the thread , control warrior is out of the meta , In meta this agressive people can't play the most consistent health gaining control deck . 

Too many people in this forum with inflated ego and little to no knowledge about card game defends an obviously toxic card . 

 

Quote from robert_fanr >>

Quote from CH3CH2OH >>

http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-29/

here we go as people said in the thread , control warrior is out of the meta , In meta this agressive people can't play the most consistent health gaining control deck . 

Too many people in this forum with inflated ego and little to no knowledge about card game defends an obviously toxic card . 

 

 But this is a GOOD thing .

Control Warrior is one of the most annoying decks to play against in the history of hearthstone .

Sorry, but so what if "Control" Warrior is out of the meta.  There are other competitive warrior decks.  Meanwhile Hunter and Paladin have absolutely nothing to play.  Also control warrior has been a staple since the beginning, for once it isn't...and the world is ending, everything must be torn down.

This thread is a joke.  So control warrior is pushed out of the meta by jade druid?  Big deal, decks are pushed out all the time.  Live with it.

Quote from DragonConsort >>

This thread is a joke.  So control warrior is pushed out of the meta by jade druid?  Big deal, decks are pushed out all the time.  Live with it.