I would be interested if folks would mind if transform was changed so that when the card went to the graveyard it transformed back to it's original state.
Why?
Well, Blizz has a rather longstanding policy of not letting you interfere with your opponent's strategy. You can't play hand destruction, you can't destroy their mana, you can't screw with their deck. Basically, they think letting you do something to stop their strategy by changing their cards is wrong.
I'm playing resurrect Priest. If my Injured Blademaster gets hexed, I'm screwed. I mean my entire strategy is thwarted. This holds probably just as well for Anyfin Paladin. Transform prevents the strategy from working in a way that I don't think is by design.
So, my solution is to transform the minion back to it's original state just prior to going into the graveyard, but at a time after deathrattles, so that Hex and Polymorph would still be excellent counters to deathrattle.
I'd love to hear your thoughts, if any, on the idea.
Personally I'd like to see another alternative implemented in addition to transform. I don't see any problem with an Incapacitate ability, that just silences the card and reduces it to a 1/1. That way resurrect (and other similar effects) continue to work.
Only drawback, is that I find these types of cards (silence/poly/hex) to take away a bit of the fun of the game. I understand their necessity, though.
But isn't that the point of a transform? I see what you're saying in that the transform then turns into a double whammy, but again, it's kind of the point. It's transforming the card. Not changing it back. That's like, ...I dunno, killing a were-creature I guess. Something like that would make sense. Maybe they could make it work with silence. It would kind of make sense to be able to neutralize a transformation spell. This would go with JPayner's idea. I dunno. I do agree, however, that maybe the cost should be in consideration. Especially between hex and poly. At least both to 4.
I think it's pretty accepted that when a changeling like a werewolf dies that it then reverts to it's original form. I don't know if there is a transform spell in WoW that works on players, but, if there was I am 99% sure when you get respawned you'll respawn in your original form, not your transformed one.
So, I think my propsed change would fit both with WoW and general fantasy lore.
Priest is my favorite class. I feel your pain. Nonetheless I think Hex and Polymorph should remain as-is. If anything, there needs to be more, not less, counters to enemy plans, strategy and tactics.
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As a fellow priest player, it's upsetting to see the best class in the game currently have a cheap answer to your blademaster, then play a zero mana 5/5 taunt. However, I don't see that particular effect being useful in the way that Hex is. Blizzard should not make cards to simply counter one strategy and strong-arm an archetype into the meta game. If the card does not counter deathrattle effects, then what use is it really? I think more neutering effects in the game should be implemented instead, something similar to Aldor Peacekeeper. I do indeed share your sentiment that Priest need a more consistent mechanic then high rolling your dead blademaster, but I don't see changing Transformation effects in order to cater to Priest being the answer either.
As a fellow priest player, it's upsetting to see the best class in the game currently have a cheap answer to your blademaster, then play a zero mana 5/5 taunt. However, I don't see that particular effect being useful in the way that Hex is. Blizzard should not make cards to simply counter one strategy and strong-arm an archetype into the meta game. If the card does not counter deathrattle effects, then what use is it really? I think more neutering effects in the game should be implemented instead, something similar to Aldor Peacekeeper. I do indeed share your sentiment that Priest need a more consistent mechanic then high rolling your dead blademaster, but I don't see changing Transformation effects in order to cater to Priest being the answer either.
I said the change back would happen after deathrattle effects, so those would still be stopped.
Another option is people running decks like res priest could actually play correctly and bait out the transform before dropping the real res target. I suppose though the deck is barely fast enough to win games as is. On second thought, perhaps it is too much to overcome - getting that frog and all. Not sure how good a deck can be when it depends on only thing you want dying.
This points to a massive flaw of resurrect priest, not a reason to destroy counterplay in the game. If priest had more useful minions, transform effects would not be an issue.
Improve the weak class, don't destroy an avenue of strategy for everyone else.
I've had my original blademaster hexed, but still have won so it is possible. The trick is to spam out a few more minions before you resurrect and then pray you don't get the frog back. I know it's a long shot, but they only have 2 transform cards in their deck, and the likelihood of them having them in hand by turn 3 is pretty low.
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Quit complaining and just have fun with this game!
Like you said, there few ways to counter opponent strategy, unless fix this problem you suggest to remove the few we have? Only because this make your strategy better?
Will be freak awesome if they made a 1 mana card for warlock like "Look the cards of opponent hand, choose one and opponent discard, lose 2 life", for a game you can act in opponent turn lacking of discard is a serious problem, that is why decks like freeze mage are eternal.
Here's the reason why Discarding something is bad in Hearthstone: direct limitation. There's plenty of threads that have utterly crushed it to the point where anyone mentioning "Why doesn't Blizzard implement discarding your opponent's cards as a mechanic" that "Learn to Google" is an approraite response. But the short gist of why this wouldn't work is because you directly force your opponent to lose resources.
This is why I hate fatigue decks. They are so stupidly annoying.
Its not the Transform mechanic that is bad, its that Hex and Polymorph are too undercosted, that's why Midrange Shamans and Tempo Mages can afford to run them.
You don't see Assassinate being run except by the most Control-Heavy Rogue decks.
IMO, Hex and Polymorph should cost 1 more. Transform is stronger than destroy because it negates Deathrattles and counters Resurrect. The Frog/Sheep is worth 0.5 mana at most. We might even start seeing Polymorph: Boar being played in Mages.
I don't think Polymorf is undercosted, the minion is 1/1 and have beast tag, Hex sure is undercosted but is in the more crap class if you consider only the classic set, because of this is fine.
EDIT: Assassinate is overcosted, a lot of removals are overcosted, the removal have to be more efficient than the minions, because if you draw the removals and the opponent don't have minions the removals don't do anything, if you have minions and the opponent don't have a removals you win the game.
Hex and Polymorph are pretty okay in terms of cost and effect. For Polymorph to fully clear a minion and the residual Sheep body, we're talking 6 mana (4 for the card, 2 for the ping, normally), comparable to Entomb without the added effect of putting the card in your own deck. Hex is reasonably cheaper because it's in a class that, at least in the Classic Set, lacks a ping to remove the residual Frog body without using another card like Earth Shock. Cards like Spirit Claws and Maelstrom Portal have shifted this dynamic somewhat by providing more cheap pings, but probably not enough to warrant a cost change to the card.
End of the day, it's already been said. Polymorph isn't even that premium of removal in most cases. Against N'zoth, Anyfin, Resurrect, and sometimes C'thun lists, it's savage, but it's much clunkier than things like Fireball or even at times Flame Lance in terms of just removing something from the board. Hex fares better, but it's kept in check by the need for multiple cards or an established board presence to remove the residual body. Besides, these transform cards provide different counterplay to strategies that would otherwise lack it, which is healthy for the game. Your Res Priest gets wrecked by a Mage with Polymorph or a Shaman with Hex? Take it on the chin and move on, like Freeze Mage does against Control Warrior, or any other archetype versus its counters.
And on the point made above about Assassinate in comparison to the various transform cards, Assassinate isn't generally run because it's bad (it's more complicated than that as a single-card unconditional removal spell, especially when you bring Arena's love for premium removal into the mix, but I'll stick with the idea that it's just bad here). Shifting other removal options to be in line with an essentially bad card is senseless.
I would be interested if folks would mind if transform was changed so that when the card went to the graveyard it transformed back to it's original state.
Why?
Well, Blizz has a rather longstanding policy of not letting you interfere with your opponent's strategy. You can't play hand destruction, you can't destroy their mana, you can't screw with their deck. Basically, they think letting you do something to stop their strategy by changing their cards is wrong.
I'm playing resurrect Priest. If my Injured Blademaster gets hexed, I'm screwed. I mean my entire strategy is thwarted. This holds probably just as well for Anyfin Paladin. Transform prevents the strategy from working in a way that I don't think is by design.
So, my solution is to transform the minion back to it's original state just prior to going into the graveyard, but at a time after deathrattles, so that Hex and Polymorph would still be excellent counters to deathrattle.
I'd love to hear your thoughts, if any, on the idea.
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Personally I'd like to see another alternative implemented in addition to transform. I don't see any problem with an Incapacitate ability, that just silences the card and reduces it to a 1/1. That way resurrect (and other similar effects) continue to work.
Only drawback, is that I find these types of cards (silence/poly/hex) to take away a bit of the fun of the game. I understand their necessity, though.
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Blizzard logic:
Polymorph = 4 mana <--- looks good
Hex = 3 mana <----- cheap, compared to polymorph (4)
Earth Shock = 1 mana <----- cheap, compared to silence (and +1 damage), should be 2 mana
Shield Slam = 1 mana <----- cheap, should be 2 mana
Evolve = 1 mana <----- cheap, should be 2 or 3 mana
Moonglade Portal = 6 mana <----- cheap, should be 5 health + 5 mana minion
Fiery War Axe = 2 mana <----- cheap, should be 2 attack
Thing from Below <----- should be 4/4
But isn't that the point of a transform? I see what you're saying in that the transform then turns into a double whammy, but again, it's kind of the point. It's transforming the card. Not changing it back. That's like, ...I dunno, killing a were-creature I guess. Something like that would make sense. Maybe they could make it work with silence. It would kind of make sense to be able to neutralize a transformation spell. This would go with JPayner's idea. I dunno. I do agree, however, that maybe the cost should be in consideration. Especially between hex and poly. At least both to 4.
I... I love him.
I think it's pretty accepted that when a changeling like a werewolf dies that it then reverts to it's original form. I don't know if there is a transform spell in WoW that works on players, but, if there was I am 99% sure when you get respawned you'll respawn in your original form, not your transformed one.
So, I think my propsed change would fit both with WoW and general fantasy lore.
Galavant Animation
Priest is my favorite class. I feel your pain. Nonetheless I think Hex and Polymorph should remain as-is. If anything, there needs to be more, not less, counters to enemy plans, strategy and tactics.
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As a fellow priest player, it's upsetting to see the best class in the game currently have a cheap answer to your blademaster, then play a zero mana 5/5 taunt. However, I don't see that particular effect being useful in the way that Hex is. Blizzard should not make cards to simply counter one strategy and strong-arm an archetype into the meta game. If the card does not counter deathrattle effects, then what use is it really? I think more neutering effects in the game should be implemented instead, something similar to Aldor Peacekeeper. I do indeed share your sentiment that Priest need a more consistent mechanic then high rolling your dead blademaster, but I don't see changing Transformation effects in order to cater to Priest being the answer either.
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Without Hex, Shaman has absolutely no chance against Res Priest.
I would Argue that for res priest and anyfin that the graveyard is more like the hand and deck than the play field.
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Another option is people running decks like res priest could actually play correctly and bait out the transform before dropping the real res target. I suppose though the deck is barely fast enough to win games as is. On second thought, perhaps it is too much to overcome - getting that frog and all. Not sure how good a deck can be when it depends on only thing you want dying.
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This points to a massive flaw of resurrect priest, not a reason to destroy counterplay in the game. If priest had more useful minions, transform effects would not be an issue.
Improve the weak class, don't destroy an avenue of strategy for everyone else.
Totally agree. This is unfair essencially and also very cheap.
If they want to keep it as it is - it should cost 6 mana. But better solution - change mechanic as you suggested.
P. S. Blizzard just hate priest. They removed an ability to steal cards (not copy). And gave no efficient class features.
Most class cards not only too gimmick, but significantly overpriced.
I've had my original blademaster hexed, but still have won so it is possible. The trick is to spam out a few more minions before you resurrect and then pray you don't get the frog back. I know it's a long shot, but they only have 2 transform cards in their deck, and the likelihood of them having them in hand by turn 3 is pretty low.
Quit complaining and just have fun with this game!
Like you said, there few ways to counter opponent strategy, unless fix this problem you suggest to remove the few we have? Only because this make your strategy better?
Will be freak awesome if they made a 1 mana card for warlock like "Look the cards of opponent hand, choose one and opponent discard, lose 2 life", for a game you can act in opponent turn lacking of discard is a serious problem, that is why decks like freeze mage are eternal.
here people are expecting nerfs to olymorph and i'm still expecting priest and Druid to get a Polymorph effect.
Its not the Transform mechanic that is bad, its that Hex and Polymorph are too undercosted, that's why Midrange Shamans and Tempo Mages can afford to run them.
You don't see Assassinate being run except by the most Control-Heavy Rogue decks.
IMO, Hex and Polymorph should cost 1 more. Transform is stronger than destroy because it negates Deathrattles and counters Resurrect. The Frog/Sheep is worth 0.5 mana at most. We might even start seeing Polymorph: Boar being played in Mages.
I don't think Polymorf is undercosted, the minion is 1/1 and have beast tag, Hex sure is undercosted but is in the more crap class if you consider only the classic set, because of this is fine.
EDIT: Assassinate is overcosted, a lot of removals are overcosted, the removal have to be more efficient than the minions, because if you draw the removals and the opponent don't have minions the removals don't do anything, if you have minions and the opponent don't have a removals you win the game.
Hex and Polymorph are pretty okay in terms of cost and effect. For Polymorph to fully clear a minion and the residual Sheep body, we're talking 6 mana (4 for the card, 2 for the ping, normally), comparable to Entomb without the added effect of putting the card in your own deck. Hex is reasonably cheaper because it's in a class that, at least in the Classic Set, lacks a ping to remove the residual Frog body without using another card like Earth Shock. Cards like Spirit Claws and Maelstrom Portal have shifted this dynamic somewhat by providing more cheap pings, but probably not enough to warrant a cost change to the card.
End of the day, it's already been said. Polymorph isn't even that premium of removal in most cases. Against N'zoth, Anyfin, Resurrect, and sometimes C'thun lists, it's savage, but it's much clunkier than things like Fireball or even at times Flame Lance in terms of just removing something from the board. Hex fares better, but it's kept in check by the need for multiple cards or an established board presence to remove the residual body. Besides, these transform cards provide different counterplay to strategies that would otherwise lack it, which is healthy for the game. Your Res Priest gets wrecked by a Mage with Polymorph or a Shaman with Hex? Take it on the chin and move on, like Freeze Mage does against Control Warrior, or any other archetype versus its counters.
And on the point made above about Assassinate in comparison to the various transform cards, Assassinate isn't generally run because it's bad (it's more complicated than that as a single-card unconditional removal spell, especially when you bring Arena's love for premium removal into the mix, but I'll stick with the idea that it's just bad here). Shifting other removal options to be in line with an essentially bad card is senseless.