Still playable IMO, although the best board states for playing it are now a little different. I always liked this idea for the Yogg nerf (could've perhaps done a small health buff at the same time), so well done.
how about they make yogg a 1 mana minion and the effect is it kills it self. there you are perfectly balanced .
tbh this was nerf was unnecessary. why i say this 1 : the card is COMPLETE random and fun . 2 : if you whant to balance tournaments just ban yogg while playing tournaments ..
Feels like a bad nerf as it actually increase the variance / "swingyness" dramatically.
Before that change, Yogg results were more normalized / had a "more average" effect, now the difference between good & bad outcomes is greater than ever.
Also, i am pretty pissed to see this card was probably nerfed because of a very annoying, toxic, but very vocal part of the playerbase, rather than its actual performance.
The only thing I (somewhat) disagree with is your remark about a vocal minority of the playerbase - as a Yogg fan, I agree that it was a problem in tournaments for obvious reasons, but was frankly fine IMHO in ladder play. The bigger issue at hand here is that Team 5 are struggling more and more with keeping HS both "casual and mobile friendly" while still simultaneously an "eSport game", as exemplified by this nerf.
Everything else I wholeheartedly agree with. Good analysis.
EDIT: I missed the part about overload in the notes earlier. "In addition to the above changes, we will be addressing the bug where cards with Overload cast by Yogg-Saron, Hope’s End will not cause Overload to the player in a future update." That's another pretty huge hit to Yogg's power level, and doesn't make sense from a consistency standpoint given Yogg's interactions with Rogue cards' combo effects...Blizz has gone on record saying Yogg is the caster not the player, so it makes no sense to overload the player if Yogg is the caster of the spells. Poor Our Lord And Savior :/
I didn't personally see Yogg as a huge problem in its current state, but I can hardly say that I'm furious about the change. Blizzard clearly had an intention in creating the card, and this change brings Yogg back in line with their vision of its use. I wouldn't call that a bad thing, at the end of the day.
That said, I do think that Blizzard should take a look at the reasons that Yogg was played in the first place when designing future expansions. Outside of the card as just a blind Hail Mary to try to pull games from the abyss, its use mostly came down to a need for strong swing cards, board clears, and methods to stabilize and regain the board in the late game. It is a loss that Yogg's nerf probably takes out the most efficient and effective swing card from common play, and there should be some similar mechanisms for swinging games introduced in future expansions. Perhaps not with such a high RNG factor, not because it was bad in itself, which I don't think it was, but because it led into a fairly vicious cycle of toxicity and negativity just due to its feel-bad factor and high variance. A less variable swing card might be better received and feels necessary, at least to me.
"Yogg is relatively weak in power level for nearly every class at every level, but is slightly above average in 2 decks – Tempo Mage and Token Druid"
then how bout instead of nerfing yog you nerf tempo mage and token druid ?
"I don't think Yogg is dead. It's not a huge nerf."
consistently kills or polymorphs himself ever time he is played
The point is, let's say you casted 12 spells and when you played yogg, he killed himself after the 7th spell. So what? 7 is good enough usually. Or 6. Or even 5 is OK.
Before that change, Yogg results were more normalized / had a "more average" effect, now the difference between good & bad outcomes is greater than ever.
The thing is, on average, Yogg's going to benefit its user much more than hurt it. Look at cards that have ZERO possible negative effects like Swipe, Flamestrike, Blizzard, Call of the Wild, or any secret. Sure, there's an occasional Astral Communion or Pyroblast to the face, but outcomes like that happen less than 0.5% of the time.
Feels like a bad nerf as it actually increase the variance / "swingyness" dramatically.
Before that change, Yogg results were more normalized / had a "more average" effect, now the difference between good & bad outcomes is greater than ever.
Also, i am pretty pissed to see this card was probably nerfed because of a very annoying, toxic, but very vocal part of the playerbase, rather than its actual performance.
The only thing I (somewhat) disagree with is your remark about a vocal minority of the playerbase - as a Yogg fan, I agree that it was a problem in tournaments for obvious reasons, but was frankly fine IMHO in ladder play. The bigger issue at hand here is that Team 5 are struggling more and more with keeping HS both "casual and mobile friendly" while still simultaneously an "eSport game", as exemplified by this nerf.
Everything else I wholeheartedly agree with. Good analysis.
I agree as well. With this nerf you run the risk of creating a situation like when a player plays Yogg without loading very many spells. The small sample size makes the potential for the spells being mostly good or bad much higher. The thing is, if they wanted to keep it fun on ladder without affecting tournaments, they could just as easily implemented card bans.
On a less serious note, my question now is is now a safe time to craft a golden Yogg-Saron, Hope's End?
Feels like a bad nerf as it actually increase the variance / "swingyness" dramatically.
Before that change, Yogg results were more normalized / had a "more average" effect, now the difference between good & bad outcomes is greater than ever.
Also, i am pretty pissed to see this card was probably nerfed because of a very annoying, toxic, but very vocal part of the playerbase, rather than its actual performance.
Blizzard clearly stated they did not intend for Yogg to appear in - and decide the outcome of several - tournament series. What does the playerbase have to do with that?
The strategy in which you play Yogg has completely changed...Before you would want as much spells as possible between 12-24 was ideal, now you want maybe half that around 6-10 so it can still have a big effect but limiting chance for disaster once you get over 10-12 spells it will have negative value returns. Yogg will still be decent...Just gotta drop with less spells. Overall excellent nerf.
This is a fair nerf. This is what the card should have been like from the start.
To elaborate, it was said multiple times that Yogg is the one casting the spells and not the player. This is also why your minions which interact with spells that YOU cast don't interact with Yogg. If the caster is dead he can't cast spells anymore so if Yogg dies he should stop casting spells because he is dead.
Makes perfect sense.
If we follow this logic then you shouldn't get overloaded either, but they're changing it so you do
If the opponent has a threatening board, yogg WAS used to MAYBE clear the board. Now, we have to pray he doesnt polymorph himself with the first spell?
I personally think this is a very bad change and wont be using this card again. (Yogg decks arent my main decks btw)
The card is dead. It's not even worth it for fun decks. The main excuse for the change was so it wouldn't get into tournaments. If that were the case, then why didn't they just ban the card like Batstone did? Banning is better then nerfing for it means the card is still useful in fun decks, but isn't competitively viable.
I didn't vote cause I don't know how to feel about this. It was bad for tournament scene, and I think this change will remove it from serious competition. However I don't think it will be played much at all with the nerf. Decks build completely around yogg, now that will be a poor strategy.
Yogg nerf doesn't change the chance-determined nature of Hearthstone, but players are more interactive with the chances, instead of looking at Yogg while cant do anything about it.
I'm sad to see this nerf BUT agree completely that it needed to happen. A guaranteed board clear on any class is worth 10 mana. This card could board clear, shadowstep ect... Now if you get the 10 mana effect he's done working, and you SHOULDN'T be upset either, he cleared the board... Why did you play him if you didn't want that? I think its going to change when Yogg is viable to drop. Previously you wanted to squeeze every spell possible before you played him, now... once you play 5-6 spells you have a high probability of yogg killing itself so playing 25 spells versus 7 spells is the same. You won't end up with a hunter mage pally tree of secrets, heals, and board clears. The only sad part is there is a small chance Yogg can murder itself and do nothing, but that's part of randomeness
This is the only nerf of this set that I will call idiotic (the execute nerf was unnecessary as well but o well, better nerf control).
So the Yogg Nerf:
We are playing in an absurdly heavy aggro/face meta. Better nerf a 10 mana card that sometimes does nothing useful and sometimes helps your opponent.
To all those who cry because they lost some games to Yogg and say its a 10 mana battlecry 'Win the game' card: Pause, take a drink to dilute your salt levels, think logically and realise that on average Yogg was only significantly better for the person who played it a little over half the time. I.e. 10 mana for poor stats and a slightly greater than 50% chance for a significant benefit. The other 35-45% containing possibilities ranging from bad, through awful, to lose the game. Sounds pretty balanced to me.
If you have a problem with people filling their decks with spells/spell generating cards, then once again, stop crying. Filling a deck with low cost minions and going face is considered a viable strategy, so whats wrong with the opposite that is at least more interesting to play with and against as well as to watch?
Finally the competitive issue that everyone seems to think was an issue: It never even existed. Hearthstone is a card game, and even if there were no rng added through card effects (of which there are many) the greatest and most game deciding rng is contained in what cards you draw at what time. Everyone tolerates this. The degree of randomness brought into a hearthstone game via Yogg is much less than that brought into it via the nature of all card games and that is before the fact that Yogg isn't even in every game, whereas card draw is. The issue is that Yogg's randomness is so much more noticeable, the screen goes purple and tones of cards start popping up, deck shuffling is invisible. The competitive issue was therefore purely psychological and never existed in reality.
So, we can see that pre-nerf Yogg was perfectly fine. Now lets look at the nerf:
Potentially the only realistic nerf that would make Yogg more unplayable would have been to make it cost 12 mana so that you would need innervate or two Emperor ticks etc to play it. Yogg is often the very first casualty of its own effect and it is very rare to see it survive its effect if any significant amount of spells have been played. The only reason Yogg was good is that is could fairly reliably clear the board, no matter how much it screwed you over in other matters such as milling cards or damaging your face, and in an aggro/face meta with the fewest good board clears ever, this made it a card worth playing. Now the card text might as well be:
You are playing a late game deck in an unfriendly meta, should you make it to turn 10 you may now spend your whole turn to play this card. When you play this card the following will likely happen: The card will self-destruct instantly, you may now proceed to lose the game. The card will help your opponent before self-destructing, you may now proceed to lose the game. Should you get lucky the card will help you a little but not enough to make it worth your whole turn, you may now proceed to likely lose the game. Occasionally, should you get very lucky, the card will help you significantly, you can now potentially win the game. Once in a blue moon, when you get incredibly lucky, you will win the game.
Sounds like one of the worst cards in the game. GG Blizzard, make one of the most fun(ny) cards in the game unplayable.
This is so insignificant it barely matters but if you play any other battlecry minion and it then gets silenced, you still got the battlecry effect. Yogg needs to be different why? Makes no sense, final nail in this ridiculous coffin. RIP Yogg, paragon of interesting game design, you shall be missed.
Yogg can't be a fun card anymore. Why? Fun yogg decks, like lock and load hunter, or miracle yogg, aim to stall the game just to drop a big yogg, but now it will be dead within the first 8-10 spells, and that really sucks. The idea of playing Yogg, even for fun, is to cast a big array of spells and unleashing chaos.
While I do aggree those decks are fun (in fact, Yogg & Load hunter is the most enjoyable deck I've ever played) you have to aggree it's unreasonable to have a card that decides games based on 100% rng. I've had scenarios where I had all the removal, healing and tempo I needed and I just lost because my opponent got retardedly lucky. If you want a card game based on skill, Yogg can't be a part of it.
Of course. Im talking about bad-fun decks, like Yogg & Load hunter. The problem is not Yogg in powerful decks, not in bad decks, remember grinder mage with yogg at the beginning of the season? They would cast 60 spells with Bran & Yogg, almost always dying to fatigue. But it was fun. That's what im refering to. Yogg is totally wrong in the competitive scenes, they should ban him from ladder and tournaments. If the deck is just "fun" you are probably dead before turn 10, or your opponent has enought tools to remove anything yogg could have done.
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Still playable IMO, although the best board states for playing it are now a little different. I always liked this idea for the Yogg nerf (could've perhaps done a small health buff at the same time), so well done.
I am possibly ok with some sort of yogg nerf, but i think the actual nerf just ruined the card.
I'll tryfor a while, but i'm afraid the reliability as board clear is now gone.
Some mana or class restriction would have been better.
how about they make yogg a 1 mana minion and the effect is it kills it self. there you are perfectly balanced .
tbh this was nerf was unnecessary. why i say this 1 : the card is COMPLETE random and fun . 2 : if you whant to balance tournaments just ban yogg while playing tournaments ..
(>'o')>
(^'0'^)
<('o'<)
This destroys everything this card was made for.
Unnerf now!
Kazin.
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I didn't personally see Yogg as a huge problem in its current state, but I can hardly say that I'm furious about the change. Blizzard clearly had an intention in creating the card, and this change brings Yogg back in line with their vision of its use. I wouldn't call that a bad thing, at the end of the day.
That said, I do think that Blizzard should take a look at the reasons that Yogg was played in the first place when designing future expansions. Outside of the card as just a blind Hail Mary to try to pull games from the abyss, its use mostly came down to a need for strong swing cards, board clears, and methods to stabilize and regain the board in the late game. It is a loss that Yogg's nerf probably takes out the most efficient and effective swing card from common play, and there should be some similar mechanisms for swinging games introduced in future expansions. Perhaps not with such a high RNG factor, not because it was bad in itself, which I don't think it was, but because it led into a fairly vicious cycle of toxicity and negativity just due to its feel-bad factor and high variance. A less variable swing card might be better received and feels necessary, at least to me.
My custom Expansion: Wrath of The Lich King
Does anyone know how this will affect the sylvanas steal effect to yogg. Will it keep going as usual or be choked off?
The strategy in which you play Yogg has completely changed...Before you would want as much spells as possible between 12-24 was ideal, now you want maybe half that around 6-10 so it can still have a big effect but limiting chance for disaster once you get over 10-12 spells it will have negative value returns. Yogg will still be decent...Just gotta drop with less spells. Overall excellent nerf.
Now this card is completely un-useable.
If the opponent has a threatening board, yogg WAS used to MAYBE clear the board. Now, we have to pray he doesnt polymorph himself with the first spell?
I personally think this is a very bad change and wont be using this card again. (Yogg decks arent my main decks btw)
The card is dead. It's not even worth it for fun decks. The main excuse for the change was so it wouldn't get into tournaments. If that were the case, then why didn't they just ban the card like Batstone did? Banning is better then nerfing for it means the card is still useful in fun decks, but isn't competitively viable.
I didn't vote cause I don't know how to feel about this. It was bad for tournament scene, and I think this change will remove it from serious competition. However I don't think it will be played much at all with the nerf. Decks build completely around yogg, now that will be a poor strategy.
Yogg nerf doesn't change the chance-determined nature of Hearthstone, but players are more interactive with the chances, instead of looking at Yogg while cant do anything about it.
I'm sad to see this nerf BUT agree completely that it needed to happen. A guaranteed board clear on any class is worth 10 mana. This card could board clear, shadowstep ect... Now if you get the 10 mana effect he's done working, and you SHOULDN'T be upset either, he cleared the board... Why did you play him if you didn't want that? I think its going to change when Yogg is viable to drop. Previously you wanted to squeeze every spell possible before you played him, now... once you play 5-6 spells you have a high probability of yogg killing itself so playing 25 spells versus 7 spells is the same. You won't end up with a hunter mage pally tree of secrets, heals, and board clears. The only sad part is there is a small chance Yogg can murder itself and do nothing, but that's part of randomeness
"I am unfortunately, the hero of ages" -Harmony
This is the only nerf of this set that I will call idiotic (the execute nerf was unnecessary as well but o well, better nerf control).
So the Yogg Nerf:
We are playing in an absurdly heavy aggro/face meta. Better nerf a 10 mana card that sometimes does nothing useful and sometimes helps your opponent.
To all those who cry because they lost some games to Yogg and say its a 10 mana battlecry 'Win the game' card: Pause, take a drink to dilute your salt levels, think logically and realise that on average Yogg was only significantly better for the person who played it a little over half the time. I.e. 10 mana for poor stats and a slightly greater than 50% chance for a significant benefit. The other 35-45% containing possibilities ranging from bad, through awful, to lose the game. Sounds pretty balanced to me.
If you have a problem with people filling their decks with spells/spell generating cards, then once again, stop crying. Filling a deck with low cost minions and going face is considered a viable strategy, so whats wrong with the opposite that is at least more interesting to play with and against as well as to watch?
Finally the competitive issue that everyone seems to think was an issue: It never even existed. Hearthstone is a card game, and even if there were no rng added through card effects (of which there are many) the greatest and most game deciding rng is contained in what cards you draw at what time. Everyone tolerates this. The degree of randomness brought into a hearthstone game via Yogg is much less than that brought into it via the nature of all card games and that is before the fact that Yogg isn't even in every game, whereas card draw is. The issue is that Yogg's randomness is so much more noticeable, the screen goes purple and tones of cards start popping up, deck shuffling is invisible. The competitive issue was therefore purely psychological and never existed in reality.
So, we can see that pre-nerf Yogg was perfectly fine. Now lets look at the nerf:
Potentially the only realistic nerf that would make Yogg more unplayable would have been to make it cost 12 mana so that you would need innervate or two Emperor ticks etc to play it. Yogg is often the very first casualty of its own effect and it is very rare to see it survive its effect if any significant amount of spells have been played. The only reason Yogg was good is that is could fairly reliably clear the board, no matter how much it screwed you over in other matters such as milling cards or damaging your face, and in an aggro/face meta with the fewest good board clears ever, this made it a card worth playing. Now the card text might as well be:
You are playing a late game deck in an unfriendly meta, should you make it to turn 10 you may now spend your whole turn to play this card. When you play this card the following will likely happen: The card will self-destruct instantly, you may now proceed to lose the game. The card will help your opponent before self-destructing, you may now proceed to lose the game. Should you get lucky the card will help you a little but not enough to make it worth your whole turn, you may now proceed to likely lose the game. Occasionally, should you get very lucky, the card will help you significantly, you can now potentially win the game. Once in a blue moon, when you get incredibly lucky, you will win the game.
Sounds like one of the worst cards in the game. GG Blizzard, make one of the most fun(ny) cards in the game unplayable.
This is so insignificant it barely matters but if you play any other battlecry minion and it then gets silenced, you still got the battlecry effect. Yogg needs to be different why? Makes no sense, final nail in this ridiculous coffin. RIP Yogg, paragon of interesting game design, you shall be missed.