Hearthpwn

Quote from moshi_mosh >>

1: lol at people complaining about a card that can actually do something against vomitstone

2: yogg is far from bad rng. Tuskarr is, because of an almost 50% chance to roll something great-to-insane. Yogg may have a good chance to roll some really good clears or generally beneficial spells but every time he rolls again is another chance to get a doom or astral communion

3: saying that he gets better the more spells you play is missing half the point. It's a very convenient thing to point out for yogg haters but it ignores the fact that you have to load your deck up with those spells, potentially weakening ones deck.

4: returning to the tuskarr comparison, yogg cannot be played unconditionally. There are many more conditions to be met for a good Saron play than some are willing to admit. Tuskarr is basically the same as highmane or cotw

5: judging from some of the comments here, it seems that a lot of peeps can't tell when a deck has yogg in it, so don't consider all the times they've won or lost against a deck with yogg in it cause it was never played 

6: I don't have yogg so don't even try that argument

Yogg is good for the game. Every tcg has metas and the only realistic way to help diversity, other than nerfing which should be avoided, is to introduce meta changers. 

Quote from ArgentumEmperio >>

Nope.

I play a deck that I have amptly named "Yogg-Stone". Summoning Stone in mage is alot of fun to play and folks still confuse it with a midrange deck so folks play completely wrong against it.

But it also means that I have played Yogg-Saron, Hope's End with spell counts anywhere between 3-22 and... that means I know what I am talking about.

Also Deathwing doesn't actually discard your whole hand. He discards the cards you don't care about since he's a reset button. The discard-part of Deathwing is as a direct result completely irrelevant.

Btw, I kept this short and tidy - just for you... or maybe because I just found your comment funny and wanted to give a short and snappy response. Whichever one you prefer! ^^

Perfect solution to Yogg that isn't removing him from the game

I'm not against the sanctioned tournaments Yogg-Ban but the monsanto vs dude says it all: how  in the world did dude get that massive unclearable powerful board by turn 5 with so many low cost minions without even saving anything and just massively overextending his hand? because he knows board clears in this game are super mediocre to non-existant, so there's no punishment for playing that badly, dude wasn't winning because he was "playing good and outplaying his opponent" which is pretty much the name anti-yogg people gave to smashing all your resources in the board without  a backup plan a.k.a the thing dude was actually doing: so unless blizzard mans-up and gives us proper AoE cards or drops flamestrike cost to 5/6 mana yogg is best left untouched in ladder otherwise players get too rewarded for massively overextending their hand and not thinking ahead. 

"Yogg is required for druid to reset the board and make a comeback" - Most BS argument I've ever heard, how about you give druid better board clears then, druid mass removal is just abysmal. Or better yet, nerf some of the broken cards they put into the game like shaman early and mid-game and call of the wild. Just don't fight broken with broken.

I don't know how anyone can defend a card that can win you the game WITHOUT YOU ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING and has a very good average outcome. Just pop it down and pray. Disgusting what winning sometimes comes down to.

Quote from Infirc >>

I'm not against the sanctioned tournaments Yogg-Ban but the monsanto vs dude says it all: how  in the world did dude get that massive unclearable powerful board by turn 5 with so many low cost minions without even saving anything and just massively overextending his hand? because he knows board clears in this game are super mediocre to non-existant, so there's no punishment for playing that badly, dude wasn't winning because he was "playing good and outplaying his opponent" which is pretty much the name anti-yogg people gave to smashing all your resources in the board without  a backup plan a.k.a the thing dude was actually doing: so unless blizzard mans-up and gives us proper AoE cards or drops flamestrike cost to 5/6 mana yogg is best left untouched in ladder otherwise players get too rewarded for massively overextending their hand and not thinking ahead. 

Quote from GralQ >>

=========== YOGG SHOULDNT BE A PROBLEM FOR YOU ============

The thing is, we emotionally want this game to be more 'serious' because it is very awkward that after so much
time playing it there's no more progress in mastering.. newer players very quick can take victories from us.

Yogg is very fun.  Hearthstone to me should not be a serious esport. Leave that to Faeria.
Hearthstone is the KING because its so simple and fun. Everyone can come play and quickly win against us 'experts'


Sorry that is the truth

You know what the real problems are??  Shaman's overpowered lineup = makes the game very repetitive and unfun

-Mana wyrm, Execute, Preparation, Wrath, Flamewaker, Innervate, frostbolt

Think about it===========

In how many deck archeatypes do you see those cards? (the answer is: all)

Would those yogg decks make it to competitive play in the highest level if there were no innervate,
wrath, mana wyrm, frostbolt???

It is THE SAME ISSUE that Mysterious challenger had:  He was never overpowered - other EXPLOSIVE AND CHEAP cards
were thus allowing a crazy deck where he would shine.

Once those cards are out, Mysterious challenger while still in rotation - IS NEVER PLAYED

Quote from GralQ >>

=========== YOGG SHOULDNT BE A PROBLEM FOR YOU ============

The thing is, we emotionally want this game to be more 'serious' because it is very awkward that after so much
time playing it there's no more progress in mastering.. newer players very quick can take victories from us.

Yogg is very fun.  Hearthstone to me should not be a serious esport. Leave that to Faeria.
Hearthstone is the KING because its so simple and fun. Everyone can come play and quickly win against us 'experts'


Sorry that is the truth

You know what the real problems are??  Shaman's overpowered lineup = makes the game very repetitive and unfun

-Mana wyrm, Execute, Preparation, Wrath, Flamewaker, Innervate, frostbolt

Think about it===========

In how many deck archeatypes do you see those cards? (the answer is: all)

Would those yogg decks make it to competitive play in the highest level if there were no innervate,
wrath, mana wyrm, frostbolt???

It is THE SAME ISSUE that Mysterious challenger had:  He was never overpowered - other EXPLOSIVE AND CHEAP cards
were thus allowing a crazy deck where he would shine.

Once those cards are out, Mysterious challenger while still in rotation - IS NEVER PLAYED

I think the argument that other 10 mana cards are powerful too doesn't hold much here because while it is random, the amount of value in terms of mana far surpasses anything else you can do. Let's say he gives you four secrets, that's already an 18 mana card, twisting neather? 26, power of the wild? 34

I stood in favor of this card for a long time since I like the wow factor, and I like that it gives decks a one up as a last ditch effort, decks which might not work without him and often have no business winning.

But after about the 10th fluke his novelty wore off, smh. I don't feel bad losing to him because it is a fluke if I'm so far ahead but yogg wins my opponent the game.

I think this is an extreme version of a type of card blizz wants to implement and we won't likely see any more with quite as much impact

Quote from EveningWood >>

"Yogg is required for druid to reset the board and make a comeback" - Most BS argument I've ever heard, how about you give druid better board clears then, druid mass removal is just abysmal. Or better yet, nerf some of the broken cards they put into the game like shaman early and mid-game and call of the wild. Just don't fight broken with broken.

I don't know how anyone can defend a card that can win you the game WITHOUT YOU ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING and has a very good average outcome. Just pop it down and pray. Disgusting what winning sometimes comes down to.

Praise Yogg! Was doing my Rogue daily in casual and he gave Yogg more damage and health twice, divine shield, concealed him, a mastiff, which it then buffed as well, then a crap load of secrets, and drew me a ton of cards. Took this screenshot when my opponent had no choice but to C'Thun which triggered the Mirror Entity at which point my opponent instantly conceded. Totally balanced! (as long as it's always in my favor lol)

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from EveningWood >>

"Yogg is required for druid to reset the board and make a comeback" - Most BS argument I've ever heard, how about you give druid better board clears then, druid mass removal is just abysmal. Or better yet, nerf some of the broken cards they put into the game like shaman early and mid-game and call of the wild. Just don't fight broken with broken.

I don't know how anyone can defend a card that can win you the game WITHOUT YOU ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING and has a very good average outcome. Just pop it down and pray. Disgusting what winning sometimes comes down to.

The argument is not BS at all. The truth of the matter is that Druid's board clears are terrible and their single target removal is terrible as well. Most of the games you need to play Yogg in to win are those in which you are forced to play from behind just to keep in check your opponent's aggression and then play Yogg and hope he will do enough for you to eventually win the game. Druid needs to have a board to win, because the point of getting extra mana is to enforce your control of the game with bigger minions, but because of how easy it is for other classes to beat you through tempo or board in the early game (Hunter, Shaman, Zoo and Mage) you can't establish your game and make use of that advantage. Since druid is already losing the early game at least it has a chance to stabilize in the later parts of the game through Yogg.

You say give Druid better cards and remove Shaman's broken cards and things like don't fight broken with broken, but we are talking about the reality of the situation and in our dimension (don't know where you live) Druid has no good answers and no good way to control the board despite the mana advantage given by its cards and Shaman has its broken cards. So, in our dimension, Yogg is actually needed. In this ideal and hypothetical world you speak of where druid is given some decent answers we wouldn't need Yogg and I for one wouldn't play him. Basically what I am saying is that the problem should be fixed on all ends (fix Shaman bs and give Druid some better board control tools) and you shouldn't just target a card that gives Druid a good answer.

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from EveningWood >>

"Yogg is required for druid to reset the board and make a comeback" - Most BS argument I've ever heard, how about you give druid better board clears then, druid mass removal is just abysmal. Or better yet, nerf some of the broken cards they put into the game like shaman early and mid-game and call of the wild. Just don't fight broken with broken.

I don't know how anyone can defend a card that can win you the game WITHOUT YOU ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING and has a very good average outcome. Just pop it down and pray. Disgusting what winning sometimes comes down to.

The argument is not BS at all. The truth of the matter is that Druid's board clears are terrible and their single target removal is terrible as well. Most of the games you need to play Yogg in to win are those in which you are forced to play from behind just to keep in check your opponent's aggression and then play Yogg and hope he will do enough for you to eventually win the game. Druid needs to have a board to win, because the point of getting extra mana is to enforce your control of the game with bigger minions, but because of how easy it is for other classes to beat you through tempo or board in the early game (Hunter, Shaman, Zoo and Mage) you can't establish your game and make use of that advantage. Since druid is already losing the early game at least it has a chance to stabilize in the later parts of the game through Yogg.

You say give Druid better cards and remove Shaman's broken cards and things like don't fight broken with broken, but we are talking about the reality of the situation and in our dimension (don't know where you live) Druid has no good answers and no good way to control the board despite the mana advantage given by its cards and Shaman has its broken cards. So, in our dimension, Yogg is actually needed. In this ideal and hypothetical world you speak of where druid is given some decent answers we wouldn't need Yogg and I for one wouldn't play him. Basically what I am saying is that the problem should be fixed on all ends (fix Shaman bs and give Druid some better board control tools) and you shouldn't just target a card that gives Druid a good answer.

Quote from EveningWood >>

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from EveningWood >>

"Yogg is required for druid to reset the board and make a comeback" - Most BS argument I've ever heard, how about you give druid better board clears then, druid mass removal is just abysmal. Or better yet, nerf some of the broken cards they put into the game like shaman early and mid-game and call of the wild. Just don't fight broken with broken.

I don't know how anyone can defend a card that can win you the game WITHOUT YOU ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING and has a very good average outcome. Just pop it down and pray. Disgusting what winning sometimes comes down to.

The argument is not BS at all. The truth of the matter is that Druid's board clears are terrible and their single target removal is terrible as well. Most of the games you need to play Yogg in to win are those in which you are forced to play from behind just to keep in check your opponent's aggression and then play Yogg and hope he will do enough for you to eventually win the game. Druid needs to have a board to win, because the point of getting extra mana is to enforce your control of the game with bigger minions, but because of how easy it is for other classes to beat you through tempo or board in the early game (Hunter, Shaman, Zoo and Mage) you can't establish your game and make use of that advantage. Since druid is already losing the early game at least it has a chance to stabilize in the later parts of the game through Yogg.

You say give Druid better cards and remove Shaman's broken cards and things like don't fight broken with broken, but we are talking about the reality of the situation and in our dimension (don't know where you live) Druid has no good answers and no good way to control the board despite the mana advantage given by its cards and Shaman has its broken cards. So, in our dimension, Yogg is actually needed. In this ideal and hypothetical world you speak of where druid is given some decent answers we wouldn't need Yogg and I for one wouldn't play him. Basically what I am saying is that the problem should be fixed on all ends (fix Shaman bs and give Druid some better board control tools) and you shouldn't just target a card that gives Druid a good answer.

 

Some people are defending yogg by the principle that druid doesn't have good comebacks and therefore yogg is fine as a comeback enabler. What I'm saying is that we should condemn yogg and demand better removal, one that should cost less than 10 mana perhaps, and that can't randomly win you games because lulz why not.

Quote from brilliant_gnome >>

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from EveningWood >>

"Yogg is required for druid to reset the board and make a comeback" - Most BS argument I've ever heard, how about you give druid better board clears then, druid mass removal is just abysmal. Or better yet, nerf some of the broken cards they put into the game like shaman early and mid-game and call of the wild. Just don't fight broken with broken.

I don't know how anyone can defend a card that can win you the game WITHOUT YOU ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING and has a very good average outcome. Just pop it down and pray. Disgusting what winning sometimes comes down to.

The argument is not BS at all. The truth of the matter is that Druid's board clears are terrible and their single target removal is terrible as well. Most of the games you need to play Yogg in to win are those in which you are forced to play from behind just to keep in check your opponent's aggression and then play Yogg and hope he will do enough for you to eventually win the game. Druid needs to have a board to win, because the point of getting extra mana is to enforce your control of the game with bigger minions, but because of how easy it is for other classes to beat you through tempo or board in the early game (Hunter, Shaman, Zoo and Mage) you can't establish your game and make use of that advantage. Since druid is already losing the early game at least it has a chance to stabilize in the later parts of the game through Yogg.

You say give Druid better cards and remove Shaman's broken cards and things like don't fight broken with broken, but we are talking about the reality of the situation and in our dimension (don't know where you live) Druid has no good answers and no good way to control the board despite the mana advantage given by its cards and Shaman has its broken cards. So, in our dimension, Yogg is actually needed. In this ideal and hypothetical world you speak of where druid is given some decent answers we wouldn't need Yogg and I for one wouldn't play him. Basically what I am saying is that the problem should be fixed on all ends (fix Shaman bs and give Druid some better board control tools) and you shouldn't just target a card that gives Druid a good answer.

 Of course we should, when the design of card is broken. A card that can't be played around, should automatically be played if you're otherwise losing and can win any game from that position has no place in a strategy game. No card compares to yogg. There are cards that are more powerful on average, which is a given - yogg is not a win condition - so any argument to that effect misunderstands what the debate is about. The debate is about the profitability of the card, which - when it is played right (I will ignore people who play the card when they do not need to) is enormous.

That this would somehow land druid along with all the other dredge classes that can't handle the brokenness of shaman doesn't worry me in the least. Sorry, but join the line-up on that one.

The argument line about HS being about RNG and flashy spells also completely fails in my book. We can have that just fine without Yogg.

 

 

 

Fun?

I dislike tryharding so yeaaah.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from GralQ >>

=========== YOGG SHOULDNT BE A PROBLEM FOR YOU ============

The thing is, we emotionally want this game to be more 'serious' because it is very awkward that after so much
time playing it there's no more progress in mastering.. newer players very quick can take victories from us.

Yogg is very fun.  Hearthstone to me should not be a serious esport. Leave that to Faeria.
Hearthstone is the KING because its so simple and fun. Everyone can come play and quickly win against us 'experts'


Sorry that is the truth

You know what the real problems are??  Shaman's overpowered lineup = makes the game very repetitive and unfun

-Mana wyrm, Execute, Preparation, Wrath, Flamewaker, Innervate, frostbolt

Think about it===========

In how many deck archeatypes do you see those cards? (the answer is: all)

Would those yogg decks make it to competitive play in the highest level if there were no innervate,
wrath, mana wyrm, frostbolt???

It is THE SAME ISSUE that Mysterious challenger had:  He was never overpowered - other EXPLOSIVE AND CHEAP cards
were thus allowing a crazy deck where he would shine.

Once those cards are out, Mysterious challenger while still in rotation - IS NEVER PLAYED

 The problem with Yogg isn't just the value or the power of the card. This is important to understand in this discussion: It's not about "overpowered". The problem is the complete random outcomes it produces with disregard for what happened before.
The difference between Yogg or MC/ dr Boom or whatever "OP" card, is that MC/ Boom have predictable outcomes. The card is played and in a broad sense the outcome is always the same.
Too strong/snowballing early game cards is a seperate issue. Why? Because Yogg doesn't care what happened before, as long as spells were casted; and those will be casted regardless of these.
With or without Yogg Hearthstone will remain a simple game where new players can beat experts by luck, but Yogg scoffs at everything.

You answered all my threats? Well played, now let's play the lottery card and see if all that was for nothing! Yeah, that's not a problem, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t0pzLnSWw0

Comebacks have no place in competitive.....yep.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

 No you are clearly wrong. It is because Yogg is very powerful that this thread exists in the first place. You don't see anyone complain about Grand Crusader because it has RNG involved. Besides it is the only good neutral card that punishes the attitude of vomiting your hand into the board without doing any thinking (Baron Geddon does that to a lesser extent, while Deathwing isn't that good because you sacrifice all the card advantage you gained throughout the game just to reset the board once). The reason why people do this in the first place (playing minions without regard of the consequences) is because Blizzard hasn't provided good reactive cards to punish the typical behaviour of these decks as well as the lack of good healing in the game. Yogg manages to solve all those problems because it casts a lot of spells so you are likely to be helped by a part of the spells cast (through healing, AOE, draw etc.). In other words, unless we get better reactive cards I think Yogg is fine as it is. Also as long as the majority of people playing the game are casuals there is no reason for Yogg to be removed or nerfed in standard (he can just be banned from tournaments).

 You compare Yogg's RNG to Grand Crusader? One random card in hand that you still need to pay mana for vs 10+ random free spells that may or may not decide the game?
Yes, not enough board clears is an issue, but if that is to be solved by a card that sometimes clears, that's quite horrible... And quite frankly a different issue all together.
Of course the biggest issue with Yogg is regarding tournaments, but even on ladder it's a farce that games are decided in this fashion. Wether it's a positive or negative outcome; You as the one who played Yogg has no conscious decision in what Yogg will do, and your opponent has no reasonable expectation to be able to play against the card. It might do "whatever".
We casuals can have fun with this game without being cheated or boosted by a card that has no definable outcome.

YOGG is FUN.