Hearthpwn

Actually I did listened and I do agree with almost everything they say there . Especially about the bomb ladder .

But I believe they underestimate the power of hitting the right target with juggler on turn 2 . In arena and tempo match-ups this is game winning and it shouldn't be . That's all .

Here's the thing almost everyone is always over looking and is just reinforced by your post there.

Hearthstone is a game. This means it's meant to be fun first challenging second and competitive third. 

RNG is part of the game, why because a roll of the dice can be fun. Tilting absolutely I've been there. However it's fun none the less. A card like yogg just throws it into overdrive and says let's see what weird and or whacky shot we can pull off now.

As for skill in the late game. Not necessarily the only thing that will win the game sometimes you need some luck with it, be it rolling high on that lightning storm to clear the board or your sylvanas stealing the right munion for you. Maybe you're healing touch pulling the right card so you can survive just a couple more turns. Point being if we had no random effects what's making hearthstone stand out from all the other ccg that are out there. 

It has the advantage of being a digital game that they can balance at any time. As for right now it's far to early to call for yogg to be nerfed or moved to wild. Why you may ask. Simple it hasn't broken the game. Only the hearts of some players because they didn't get the roll they needed to get things to go their way. If yogg was such an overpowered card every class would have a deck that runs it.

I don't know the last time I saw a warlock, paladin, priest or even rogue play a yogg on me. Hell I don't think even a warrior has so that leaves druid mage hunter maybe the one shaman thay one time playing a weird deck. So half the classes play it.

So at the end of the day just because a couple classes run it doesn't make it either meta defining or overpowered. It just makes it a fun card and a hail Mary to say fuck it let's see if luck is on my side today.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

I feel like many people here are missing the point. The issue with Yogg isn't that he wins games; The problem is the unreliability. Now, before you start saying "and that's why he isn't OP", you're not seeing the bigger picture. Games are potentially decided by a spin of yogg's roullette wheel. There is no preparation, no counter. You and your opponent just sit out the animation and hope the outcome is favorable.

Never is there a moment where you can think, "now is the time when I need Yogg's effect!" because his effect could be anything.
You could be looking for a clear, but you cannot play him as a clear because he might not do that.
Yogg is a twisting nether that reads "Destroy all minions; Or do something completely different".
A deathwing that reads "Destroy all minions and discard your hand. Maybe. Or do something else".

That's not how games should (or could) be decided. It's anti skill and anti competitive.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

I feel like many people here are missing the point. The issue with Yogg isn't that he wins games; The problem is the unreliability. Now, before you start saying "and that's why he isn't OP", you're not seeing the bigger picture. Games are potentially decided by a spin of yogg's roullette wheel. There is no preparation, no counter. You and your opponent just sit out the animation and hope the outcome is favorable.

Never is there a moment where you can think, "now is the time when I need Yogg's effect!" because his effect could be anything.
You could be looking for a clear, but you cannot play him as a clear because he might not do that.
Yogg is a twisting nether that reads "Destroy all minions; Or do something completely different".
A deathwing that reads "Destroy all minions and discard your hand. Maybe. Or do something else".

That's not how games should (or could) be decided. It's anti skill and anti competitive.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

I feel like many people here are missing the point. The issue with Yogg isn't that he wins games; The problem is the unreliability. Now, before you start saying "and that's why he isn't OP", you're not seeing the bigger picture. Games are potentially decided by a spin of yogg's roullette wheel. There is no preparation, no counter. You and your opponent just sit out the animation and hope the outcome is favorable.

Never is there a moment where you can think, "now is the time when I need Yogg's effect!" because his effect could be anything.
You could be looking for a clear, but you cannot play him as a clear because he might not do that.
Yogg is a twisting nether that reads "Destroy all minions; Or do something completely different".
A deathwing that reads "Destroy all minions and discard your hand. Maybe. Or do something else".

That's not how games should (or could) be decided. It's anti skill and anti competitive.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from robert_fanr >>

 You are wrong . Yogg is always board clear + card draw + board generation + secrets .

How much of these he actually does is directly proportional with the number of spells you played earlier . If you played few spells he might not do anything . If you played a lot of spells he can turn the game around .

There is a time to Yogg .A good player will play Yogg only when he is the only thing that can help him come back into the game .

 No, you are wrong. Yogg can be any of those things, all of those things, or none of those things. Go watch the video. You cannot make a reliable expectation on Yogg.

Quote from kingius >>

A 10 mana card should be able to decide a game, that's true.

A 10 mana card should not be able to decide the game, or the game becomes about which player draws the 10 mana card first, making it a game of chance.

Quote from nevr3000 >>

Quote from robert_fanr >>

 Watch closely . Every single player who played Yogg draw at least one card and did at least some damage to the board . Sometimes it wasn't enough to save them ? yes . But had them played more spells it would have .

 I honestly believe you're just not thinking it through. Playing more spells doesn't make Yogg "better", it only makes him do more.
More random unpredictable good or bad spells with no reliable outcome.

Most people use the competitive argument but how many of you are pro or trying to become one? I've been legend multiple times, got it the first time before naxx playing handlock in a meta riddled with miracle rogues and zoolocks and I really don't care and never cared about competition in this game. I just want to have fun and Yogg achieves that. Maybe you're new to this game so you still have illusions about the competitiveness of HS but most veteran players after 2 years + just want some fun and not the play-your-minions-on-curves-and-think-you-have-great-skill way of playing. Also it seems pretty obvious that Blizzard clearly chose the RNG path for this game... Just look at knife juggler he's been one of the biggest offenders since beta. And have you seen how many RNG cards there have been since GVG? Just look at Karazan, most legendaries are RNG Based: Barnes, Mediv, Malcheezar, etc... SO yes Yogg is the god of RNG, his effect is unprecedented and probably a bit frustrating if you're expecting to win and he turns the game around against you but he's also a lot of fun for most people. Btw if you really want to be competitive you need to learn to cope with the bitterness of losing, it's not that bad to win or lose a game based on rng, and you can't last if you can't stand losing in a card game.

I don't agree with yogg defenders since there is too much possitive spells and less negative ones so if you consider this as a dice you have less chance to roll one but more chance to roll six that is what makes Yogg unfair

I've never seen someone discuss a card and change his thought over it. That's why I don't get these pointless threads. You want to hear it so badly from someone that they agree what you think? It's like watching kids fight with a grown men's vocabulary.

I dont care about competetive HS whatsoever - I dont watch it, I dont want to be part of it in any way. As long as I have fun with Yogg I am ok with this card and all the rng it brings on. I actually like Yogg.

Quote from kingius >>

A 10 mana card should be able to decide a game, that's true.

A 10 mana card should not be able to decide the game, or the game becomes about which player draws the 10 mana card first, making it a game of chance.

Quote from robert_fanr >>

Yogg is exactly what  his name sais : the last hope for someone in a losing position. 

It can be frustrating to play against but a 10 mana legendary should have a powerful effect. In most cases he just acts like a Doom or Deathwing. Sometimes it's more powerful than anything but sometimes is pretty bad making him overall an OK card for the mana cost and rarity. 

Quote from ArgentumEmperio >>

I watched it and during every single one of 'em I thought this:

"Isn't this what Deathwing used to do when you included him in control decks, and the reason why he was seen roughly 50/50 of all times when Taunt-druid was the name of the game in tournament-play?"

Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is a perfectly balanced card, bad rng but due to its mana cost and conditional activation serves the same function as Deathwing. Professional hearthstone players are as a general rule of thumb exceedingly whiny in their appearance... because folks associate Kripparian and Raynad as professional Hearthstone players.

Kripparian is a Hearthstone content producer but not commonly a 'professional' player (he's also an idiot but that's mostly due to the fact that he claims every card his opponent plays is a top-deck'd card... and this includes the times when someone keep such cards as Reno Jackson, Malygos, Gadgetzan Auctioneer in their opening hand as in... cards folks INTENTIONALLY keep in their opening hand because its a good idea; so Kripparian is an idiot sorry but that's not subjective, that's an objective thing).

Raynad is a whiny kid who doesn't understand math (if you don't believe me, go and look up his video on RNG, compare it to Extra Credits explaination of the "Delta of Randomness", take a math class if you still don't believe me... and its quite clear Raynad failed math in school) and complains about the fact that rng even exists in cardgames.

 

Sorry but no, Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is an unconditional Deathwing for spells which means that you need a drawback for the card. And that drawback is that it only works some of the time.

I would agree that 'Hearthstone can't be taken seriously because of a card that wins you games from behind and establishes dominance when ahead!' but... all of these Yoggs were played from behind and most of 'em didn't do anything to help win the situation. I agree that rng is not good for the competitive scene and I fundamentally believe that if there's even a chance to essentially become an immortal ... the game's flawed. Look to highground miss chance in games like DotA, SC:BW, WC3, etc. for reference.

However... you don't become an immortal because you played Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, nor are you an immortal even due to the highground miss chance considering... the games I listed have been considered some of the most competitively balanced games in the history of gaming! You don't become an immortal, because of how the game's made. And likewise what Kibler has said "Play around it"; don't overextend, you can see when a 'BIG' Yogg is coming or not, if you are playing an aggressive deck... put on more aggression. Failed to do so? Did you fail because your deck is built wrong (your fault), because you didn't draw the 'right' cards (welcome to cardgames) or because of a Yogg-Saron, Hope's End that a) hasn't been played yet or b) he was able to powerup with spells and then play on 10 mana?

The card's fine. If you want to debate me on this, bring me statistics of win-ratio for the card.

(Oh and btw, just because I need to state this as well: Firebat had the right idea that you could make a format in which you could ban certain cards which is a good thing for community tournaments, horrendous idea for official tournaments but good for those kind of community tournaments to exist as well. Other than that when Firebat was talking about the win ratio of Yogg-Saron, Hope's End in his video he neglected one thing: too few games are played by 'each player' to provide solid averages or statistics. To understand this better I suggest following Extra Credits and looking up their videos on competitive viability and tournament play. That as well as Brian Kibler.)

Quote from Arcanus94 >>

Hearthstone was never meant to be a competitive game format, the only reason it exists as one is because said RNG elements are fun to watch, a kinda paradox of the scene. The Devs themselves even said they didn't want Hearthstone to become competitive and the RNG elements play a big factor in why that is the case. RNG cards are perfectly fine in Hearthstone with that intention that it isn't meant to be competitive, ergo why they released Yogg because it's a fun card and you can get away with RNG cards in Hearthstone because it is a Digital Card game. 

Yogg is ridiculous in tournaments I agree, but these tournaments were never meant to really exist in the first place and it's always fun to watch when Yogg wins / loses a game.

Yogg-Saron is a 10 mana card. It must have such an effect.

Cards like Fiery Bat, Flame Juggler and Tuskarr Totemic are 100% based on RNG and can win games on turn 1-2-3. That happens much more frequently than a Yogg win and is far more problematic.

If you hate RNG, just play another game, Hearthstone is 100% based on RNG.

That's easy, any card with RNG effect keeps the game from being PTW, keeps it new player friendly, it's a delicate balance though, too much RNG and the people who who blows a lot of cash on packs will rage quit.

Competitive hs is and will always be a complete joke unless they start removing coinflip win the game cards.

Quote from DropDeadCynical >>

Okay I watched the first 10, I don't have time to watch the rest.

Sometimes it turned the game around, sometimes it didn't, which is my experience is consistent with Yogg.  I assume the players who put it in their deck considered it was worth the risk, even for a 10 mana card.

What is your point here?