The "Giant" Style card has been in Hearthstone since nearly the beginning, and many of them have been prominent over the game's History for fairly Obvious reasons. being able to cheese out 8-8's for little to no mana has always been really strong and always will.
Molten Giant was used in a variety of decks, from classic Handlock to obscure echo of medivh / Ice Block Mages. all of which used or some may say abused their texts to the maximum extent and often played their Molten Giant's for no mana at all. Then Blizzard Nerfed it to cost a whole 5 more mana, and it was effectively dead as a card after that. people tried making it work but by the time you could play it for a decent discount, most likely you would die the next turn to burn cards.
The nerf was a step away from the "cheesing out giant minions" strat that people tended to abuse with some of the giants. Which perhaps was a fair move by blizzard. They did nerf it out of the possibility of playing it in constructed, but i dont think there's ever been a nerf where they haven't.
Then They come back in with Arcane Giant, and it feels like we're right back where we started. it's so easy to get your arcane giant down to zero to 3 mana, and it barely feels like you're building a deck specifically for it sometimes. you just put in a few extra good spells and these as cheap late game. And in the cases where you do build around it very specifically...
Then in comes the OTK decks with giants. Blizzard has never really liked OTk that much, which is fair because a lot of the times there's not much the opponent can do to stop it if they dont have the deck for it, and then it becomes another non-interactive mechanic in the game.
This isn't me shouting for a nerf or anything. But I really wonder whether giants are designed the right way. they've always done it the same way, which is why they continue to make them in this fashion. Yet i wonder whether there should be more parameters on the giants. like what if They changed the giants text to make it so they can't cost less than 2 or three mana? A Change like that to molten i feel would of a been a much better nerf. it takes away the possibility of playing a ton of 0 mana giants and combo-ing then somehow, yes, but it also increases the viability of the card a lot. Or what if they did the same with Arcane Giant? Knowing blizzard and their lazy designers, if there was a nerf to it, they'd probably just bump up the mana cost like they nearly always do and then the card becomes un-playable.
Any thoughts on how The Giant type of card should work in Hearthstone? or is it fine as it is? Lets throw some Ideas out there,
I believe we don't need a nerf on Giants by rather have more cards than interact with the opposite side of what makes them strong, that way you can play the Giant and your oponent an apropiate counter that may also be viable if you aren't heavy on spells or whatever reduction rule there is.
yeah but the Problem with Arcane Giant though is that you can't really do that and there isn't anything you can do to stop them from playing spells, and then later on just playing it for free for a massive tempo swing. There's no way for somebody to interact with their opponents deck having a ton of spells, and them playing them. arcane giant will pretty much always be a near free 8-8 in the deck its included in. Its not like you can choose to not attack them so they can't play too cheap of moltens. and you can't necessarily stop Mountain Giant either, but they generally have to lose a lot of tempo in the first place by playing nothing to get it out cheap. and even then Mountain giant DOES have a restriction, since it cots 12 and the max hand size is 10 you can only play it for 2.
Actually, Giants aren't the strongest bombs in the meta.
The reason why Handlock was a good deck back then was for two reasons:
The opposing decks lacked valuable responses
to the 8/8 on turn 4 or 5 and then more every turn after.
The fact of the matter is that the Giants are just 8/8s. They're big, they're fat, but they're just minions. They don't do anything. A minion with no ability is a waste of mana later in the game, which is why the entire Handlock deck was dedicated to "Big Stats Early On" in the form of Ancient Watcher running two Sunfury Protectors AND one or two Defender of Argus, with DOUBLE Ironbeak Owl. All of those cards were shoved in the deck because they were the reason why Handlock's Giants did work. An 8/8 can only get through one taunt at a time, which only delays the victory of the Warlock. So to prevent me from taking damage, or to make sure I get in with damage, I will use Taunt and Silence respectively.
Now, we didn't just lose Molten Giant, but we also lost Ironbeak Owl and every card that rotated out when WoTG came in. In Wild, though, the deck still isn't played, because an 8/8 on turn 4 costs us to skip turn 1, 2, and 3. By now, the Secret Paladin or Zoo deck has flooded the board, and our 8/8 isn't good enough. He doesn't do anything.
So the concept behind Giants is that we get an 8/8 body that does nothing, but for a potentially cheap cost. That your entire strategy has to be resolved around these Giants in order to get that Giant into play on turn 4, or 5. If you get the Giant into play on turn 6, why don't you just play Flamewreathed Faceless? Right, it's class only, but it's the niche we're playing for. Since the Faceless is so consistent, coming in with that lovely cost of 4, Giants aren't really going to fit their generalized role.
Then it comes to OTK, and OTKs require combo pieces, set up, and signaling. If I'm setting up my OTK, and you're not sure what I'm doing, then I'm doing it right. But once you catch on, I signaled my OTK to you, and you're aware of the timeline. The OTK is heavily dependent on said combo, that it is equally inconsistent. Sure the millions of draw in the deck will help, but I've been stuck with Battle Rages in my hand with myself at full health - because I signaled my OTK to the enemy too quickly. He was chipping my armor but not dealing damage to me. Then he played Alexstrasza and killed me.
The "Giant Design" is balanced due to it's niche playable and dependency on the deck. They're just an 8/8, which is stopped by the aggressive Shamans and Zoo decks in the meta right now. If you can play a minion on curve, you can beat any deck running an 8/8 Giant early. Now if your goal isn't to get the 8/8 out early, then just run someone like Ragnaros the Firelord. Think about when your Giant is better than Ragnaros, and if the deck you're playing it in consistently does NOT get the Giant out on turn 5 or before, then think about replacing it.
The introduction of arcane golem pisses me off because it means molten giant was nerfed for nothing. I don't mind the arcane giants, I actually like them, but their presence in the game is a big middle finger to the handlock players.
Molten Giant is an interesting card, but it’s too easy for players to reduce its mana cost to 0. We’re increasing Molten Giant’s mana cost to 25 to increase the risks players must take to get a free Giant. The changes to Force of Nature and Arcane Golem will make dropping to low health somewhat less risky as well, which helped spur this change.
This justification makes no sense anymore. It's even easier to get arcane giant to 0 mana unless you are playing vs an aggro deck, which need more counters anyways. And we all know how risky dropping to low health is. Even playing Lord Jaraxxus requires careful planning or else you'll die immediadly.
You had control over when your opponent played molten giant, which you don't have for arcane giant. Even once they were played with sunfury, they were vulnerable to freeze, hard removal, silence, burn to the face, and even cheap damage like flametongue totem or power overwhelming. However, they were good versus aggro, because you typically could play them relatively safely and gain enough tempo to contest the board.
Handlock was my favourite deck, and it's not playable anymore because they nerfed what was probably the most important card in the deck.
TLDR: They took away a giant from handlock, killing the archetype, then gave it to spell centric decks, which were already top tier. That's basically stealing from the poor to give to the rich.
Who cares anyways, soon I'll graduate and I won't have time to play this joke of a game.
salty, But true nonetheless. I wasn't aware if there was an official statement like what you quoted but that was the vibe i got from blizzard nerfing molten; that they didn't like easy 0 mana giants. the thing is, no matter how you swing it, a 0 mana giant is good no matter what. how about you play the 0 mana arcane giant AND Ragnaros? for the same cost as just rag.
The problem with big minions like Xolo stated is that they dont DO anything. but when you play them for free later on you still have all your mana to clear their board or develop your own further.
How about you play the 0 mana arcane giant AND Ragnaros? for the same cost as just rag.
That is a realistic fear, but to solidify my argument: The Giant does nothing without extra cards. They are nearly always a "bad" draw, as they won't help you burst for lethal and won't save you in the last minute. Sure, playing Arcane Giant & Ragnaros on the same turn is scary, but that Arcane Giant could've been a more active bomb that is played on a later (or earlier) turn, like Sylvanas Windrunner or Ysera, hypothetically.
Although I will accept the fact of price. A valuable bomb is worth 1600 dust, while a Giant is worth 400 dust. So I can completely agree for it being a budget alternative, if it fits.
Arcane giant is a tempo card. It's played to apply pressure on the board, playing a normal turn and adding a 0 mana 8/8 on top. Ysera and sylvanas are slow cards that apply little pressure the turn they're played. In that sense arcane giant is a more active card, because the opponent generally has more trouble retaliating, having to deal with your usual turn AND a free 8/8.
The biggest issue with Arcane giant is that by the time its mana cost is low, you've emptied your hand and you have a lot of mana to spend. This means you not only need a deck with lots of spells, but also good draw and a few high costed cards.
Aditionally, 8/8 are bad stats if you're behind on the board. If the opponent has the opportunity to trade, he can use low health minions to kill it, benefit from temporary buffs such as Abusive Sergeant, and even go face. The 8 attack becomes irrelevant if you use it to kill small minions. On the contrary, if you're ahead on the board, 8/8 is a big threat to the opponent health pool, and it can kill full health minions in one attack, furthering your advantage.
So to make the most out of arcane giant, you need a deck with:
Lots of spells
Good draw engine
Good 10 mana plays
High board pressure
That's pretty restrictive criteria, making arcane giant a very niche card. But when those are met, it can be a top tier card.
The introduction of arcane golem pisses me off because it means molten giant was nerfed for nothing. I don't mind the arcane giants, I actually like them, but their presence in the game is a big middle finger to the handlock players.
This is completely false. Molten was nerfed, because it was a part of Classic set. They said, they'd be totally ok with Molten if it was ever to rotate out. And that's also why they are ok with Arcane Giant. They want such card in the game, but they don't want it to be there forever, limiting design freedom.
Agreed, only cards from the basic and classic set got nerfed because cards not from those sets get rotated out of standard. The giants are fine because you do need to build a deck around them to work, you are never going to put arcane giant in a deck which has few spells. They are vanilla bombs you drop in order to control the board. I think that if the fanbase was in charge of nerfing cards than pretty much any card which makes an impact on the board would get nerfed to oblivion. Blizzard are known for nerfing cards to the point they become unusable but at least they don't go overboard with the amount of cards they nerf.
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The "Giant" Style card has been in Hearthstone since nearly the beginning, and many of them have been prominent over the game's History for fairly Obvious reasons. being able to cheese out 8-8's for little to no mana has always been really strong and always will.
Molten Giant was used in a variety of decks, from classic Handlock to obscure echo of medivh / Ice Block Mages. all of which used or some may say abused their texts to the maximum extent and often played their Molten Giant's for no mana at all. Then Blizzard Nerfed it to cost a whole 5 more mana, and it was effectively dead as a card after that. people tried making it work but by the time you could play it for a decent discount, most likely you would die the next turn to burn cards.
The nerf was a step away from the "cheesing out giant minions" strat that people tended to abuse with some of the giants. Which perhaps was a fair move by blizzard. They did nerf it out of the possibility of playing it in constructed, but i dont think there's ever been a nerf where they haven't.
Then They come back in with Arcane Giant, and it feels like we're right back where we started. it's so easy to get your arcane giant down to zero to 3 mana, and it barely feels like you're building a deck specifically for it sometimes. you just put in a few extra good spells and these as cheap late game. And in the cases where you do build around it very specifically...
Then in comes the OTK decks with giants. Blizzard has never really liked OTk that much, which is fair because a lot of the times there's not much the opponent can do to stop it if they dont have the deck for it, and then it becomes another non-interactive mechanic in the game.
This isn't me shouting for a nerf or anything. But I really wonder whether giants are designed the right way. they've always done it the same way, which is why they continue to make them in this fashion. Yet i wonder whether there should be more parameters on the giants. like what if They changed the giants text to make it so they can't cost less than 2 or three mana? A Change like that to molten i feel would of a been a much better nerf. it takes away the possibility of playing a ton of 0 mana giants and combo-ing then somehow, yes, but it also increases the viability of the card a lot. Or what if they did the same with Arcane Giant? Knowing blizzard and their lazy designers, if there was a nerf to it, they'd probably just bump up the mana cost like they nearly always do and then the card becomes un-playable.
Any thoughts on how The Giant type of card should work in Hearthstone? or is it fine as it is? Lets throw some Ideas out there,
Why does Vicious Fledgling exist
I believe we don't need a nerf on Giants by rather have more cards than interact with the opposite side of what makes them strong, that way you can play the Giant and your oponent an apropiate counter that may also be viable if you aren't heavy on spells or whatever reduction rule there is.
yeah but the Problem with Arcane Giant though is that you can't really do that and there isn't anything you can do to stop them from playing spells, and then later on just playing it for free for a massive tempo swing. There's no way for somebody to interact with their opponents deck having a ton of spells, and them playing them. arcane giant will pretty much always be a near free 8-8 in the deck its included in. Its not like you can choose to not attack them so they can't play too cheap of moltens. and you can't necessarily stop Mountain Giant either, but they generally have to lose a lot of tempo in the first place by playing nothing to get it out cheap. and even then Mountain giant DOES have a restriction, since it cots 12 and the max hand size is 10 you can only play it for 2.
Why does Vicious Fledgling exist
Actually, Giants aren't the strongest bombs in the meta.
The reason why Handlock was a good deck back then was for two reasons:
The fact of the matter is that the Giants are just 8/8s. They're big, they're fat, but they're just minions. They don't do anything. A minion with no ability is a waste of mana later in the game, which is why the entire Handlock deck was dedicated to "Big Stats Early On" in the form of Ancient Watcher running two Sunfury Protectors AND one or two Defender of Argus, with DOUBLE Ironbeak Owl. All of those cards were shoved in the deck because they were the reason why Handlock's Giants did work. An 8/8 can only get through one taunt at a time, which only delays the victory of the Warlock. So to prevent me from taking damage, or to make sure I get in with damage, I will use Taunt and Silence respectively.
Now, we didn't just lose Molten Giant, but we also lost Ironbeak Owl and every card that rotated out when WoTG came in. In Wild, though, the deck still isn't played, because an 8/8 on turn 4 costs us to skip turn 1, 2, and 3. By now, the Secret Paladin or Zoo deck has flooded the board, and our 8/8 isn't good enough. He doesn't do anything.
So the concept behind Giants is that we get an 8/8 body that does nothing, but for a potentially cheap cost. That your entire strategy has to be resolved around these Giants in order to get that Giant into play on turn 4, or 5. If you get the Giant into play on turn 6, why don't you just play Flamewreathed Faceless? Right, it's class only, but it's the niche we're playing for. Since the Faceless is so consistent, coming in with that lovely cost of 4, Giants aren't really going to fit their generalized role.
Then it comes to OTK, and OTKs require combo pieces, set up, and signaling. If I'm setting up my OTK, and you're not sure what I'm doing, then I'm doing it right. But once you catch on, I signaled my OTK to you, and you're aware of the timeline. The OTK is heavily dependent on said combo, that it is equally inconsistent. Sure the millions of draw in the deck will help, but I've been stuck with Battle Rages in my hand with myself at full health - because I signaled my OTK to the enemy too quickly. He was chipping my armor but not dealing damage to me. Then he played Alexstrasza and killed me.
The "Giant Design" is balanced due to it's niche playable and dependency on the deck. They're just an 8/8, which is stopped by the aggressive Shamans and Zoo decks in the meta right now. If you can play a minion on curve, you can beat any deck running an 8/8 Giant early. Now if your goal isn't to get the 8/8 out early, then just run someone like Ragnaros the Firelord. Think about when your Giant is better than Ragnaros, and if the deck you're playing it in consistently does NOT get the Giant out on turn 5 or before, then think about replacing it.
The Roshambo to Hearthstone. Please be nice. Don't insult or be mad at someone for throwing Rock.
The introduction of arcane golem pisses me off because it means molten giant was nerfed for nothing. I don't mind the arcane giants, I actually like them, but their presence in the game is a big middle finger to the handlock players.
This justification makes no sense anymore. It's even easier to get arcane giant to 0 mana unless you are playing vs an aggro deck, which need more counters anyways. And we all know how risky dropping to low health is. Even playing Lord Jaraxxus requires careful planning or else you'll die immediadly.
You had control over when your opponent played molten giant, which you don't have for arcane giant. Even once they were played with sunfury, they were vulnerable to freeze, hard removal, silence, burn to the face, and even cheap damage like flametongue totem or power overwhelming. However, they were good versus aggro, because you typically could play them relatively safely and gain enough tempo to contest the board.
Handlock was my favourite deck, and it's not playable anymore because they nerfed what was probably the most important card in the deck.
TLDR: They took away a giant from handlock, killing the archetype, then gave it to spell centric decks, which were already top tier. That's basically stealing from the poor to give to the rich.
Who cares anyways, soon I'll graduate and I won't have time to play this joke of a game.
salty, But true nonetheless. I wasn't aware if there was an official statement like what you quoted but that was the vibe i got from blizzard nerfing molten; that they didn't like easy 0 mana giants. the thing is, no matter how you swing it, a 0 mana giant is good no matter what. how about you play the 0 mana arcane giant AND Ragnaros? for the same cost as just rag.
The problem with big minions like Xolo stated is that they dont DO anything. but when you play them for free later on you still have all your mana to clear their board or develop your own further.
Why does Vicious Fledgling exist
The Roshambo to Hearthstone. Please be nice. Don't insult or be mad at someone for throwing Rock.
Arcane giant is a tempo card. It's played to apply pressure on the board, playing a normal turn and adding a 0 mana 8/8 on top. Ysera and sylvanas are slow cards that apply little pressure the turn they're played. In that sense arcane giant is a more active card, because the opponent generally has more trouble retaliating, having to deal with your usual turn AND a free 8/8.
The biggest issue with Arcane giant is that by the time its mana cost is low, you've emptied your hand and you have a lot of mana to spend. This means you not only need a deck with lots of spells, but also good draw and a few high costed cards.
Aditionally, 8/8 are bad stats if you're behind on the board. If the opponent has the opportunity to trade, he can use low health minions to kill it, benefit from temporary buffs such as Abusive Sergeant, and even go face. The 8 attack becomes irrelevant if you use it to kill small minions. On the contrary, if you're ahead on the board, 8/8 is a big threat to the opponent health pool, and it can kill full health minions in one attack, furthering your advantage.
So to make the most out of arcane giant, you need a deck with:
That's pretty restrictive criteria, making arcane giant a very niche card. But when those are met, it can be a top tier card.