Just now, I beat a Rogue with my Dragon/N'zoth Priest (its a very fun deck), and about half way through the game, I happen to play Chillmaw. At this time, the Rogue only had 2, 3/3 minions on the board, so I would clear his board if he were to kill it or just trade. However, he decided to use Sap on it. I had nothing else on the board, so he obviously went face, doing a measly a 6 damage when I was at full health, and played an Azure Drake along side Sap.
Thing is, I wasn't drawing that well, and I happened to play Chillmaw on curve. My next draw wasn't any better, so....I played Chillmaw again, forcing him to kill it, and nearly clear his board.
This is my problem with Sap. It is only temporary removal, yet people use it as permanent removal. I can understand that in some cases, Sap can be very useful if you happen to have lethal on the board/in hand, and need to get rid of a pesky taunt, or possibly save you from losing the game on the spot for at least a turn or two. But I've seen people Sap legendaries such as Ysera, Emperor Thaurissan, etc. when they have so little pressure on the board! Sapping those minions, when you have little to no pressure against your opponent, does NOTHING. They'll just play it again the next turn, and you'll be forced to deal with it in some other fashion.
Sap doesn't appear to be as good as most people think. Or, I've only seen cases where it is used badly. Surprisingly, I have yet to see a case where Sap wins a game for someone. Its very situational, yet people gravitate towards using it as much as Mages do Fireballs. Does anyone have an instance where Sap was actually very useful, and possibly won them the game? Cause so far, I'm not convinced.
Well it mostly works when you wanna take a taunt off the board to hit the face or set up lethal next turn with the board you have now and the spells you have in hand.You don't stall with it,you set up lethal with it.
You're making a case against bad players, not sap.
Edit: to answer your question; sap constantly wins games by removing taunts when you have lethal....
^This.
Also, I've literally never heard anyone 'praise' sap - to me it's just a useful rogue card, but I wouldn't call it OP or anything. Although to be fair, sap vs turn 6 Savannah Highmane is really, really good.
Sap doesn't win you the game within 1 or 2 turns after playing it. It creates a domino effect by giving the user a slight tempo edge, which will result in a final outcome (bursting him with leeroy for exact lethal) that would be impossible if Sap wasn't used 5 turns ago.
Sap is an excellent card and has won me countless games. Like already has been said, it is a pure tempo card.
I also know the situation you decribe, where it is used pointlessly - the reason for that is, that the rogue just had no other options. Sapping it saves you a turn, possibly drawing into a Miracle Turn or another Sap, Shadowstrike, whatever. Surely it was no comfortable play for the rogue to sap the Chillmaw, butif he ignores it and has no other options he is not even getting any face damage, so he is desperate enough to sap it without any following plays in hand. That said, at that point you already had won the game.
Sap is there for Tempo mostly, you can use it to regain board advantage, dealing with the opponent's board in a more effective way a turn later, applying pressure, effectively silencing a buffed minion or just bypassing taunts for lethal or pressure. It's a great card overall.
With no knowledge of the opponent's hand, it's impossible to say that sapping "bad" sap targets is the wrong move. Sometimes you just happen to have a ton of stuff in your hand that trades REALLY unfavorably with something, and you'd rather get rid of him and try to create a board than try to deal with it. There are other times where tempo is just going to snowball forever and you absolutely have to get rid of something, even temporarily. This is where I can understand a bad sap like Emperor. Sure, you're giving him a free second tick of his ability - but the fact that he's sapping it means he had no way of getting rid of it, so that second tick was going to go off anyway. This way, if he wants a second tick he has to spend another 6 mana. He probably had a plan for the next turn and now has to decide whether to execute that plan or play Emperor again.
Sap on Ysera isn't even bad - I'd classify that as a perfectly acceptable sap target. She generates no tempo the turn she's played but the cards she creates are dangerous. By sapping it you've essentially made them spend 9 mana for a random dream card. If they want to play her again, that's essentially another FULL turn wasted, so 2 turns of doing nothing while you create a board that can kill her or push for lethal. The last thing you want to do is leave her up to get a Ysera Awakens and clear your board. These are *exactly* the kinds of cards you want to sap as it's an absolutely enormous tempo loss!
Another good example of a card you want to sap is the second Twin-Emperor. Against C'thun decks, you typically don't have many options to sap. But that second emperor doesn't have the "summon another emperor" text and still costs 7 mana. If you can kill emperor 1 and sap back emperor 2, you leave them with a 7 mana 4/6 in their hand which is just terrible.
Tahladnas and gho4st are correct. Sap's goal is to create a tempo swing (and let you do something else as well the same turn, which many removals don't leave you mana for) and I find myself using it as a tempo play WAY more than as a taunt removal. Having 2 saps in hand on turn 6 against hunter is an absolute dream - you know they're trying to create a sticky board for Call of the Wild. Turn 6 you sap the highmane, play a minion. Turn 7 you sap that highmane again, play another minion, and turn 8 they call of the wild on an empty board which you easily clear. THAT is how sap is supposed to work.
If I may ask, how often do you run into a dragon priest, and how well do you normally perform against them?
I ask, because it appears as if every Rogue I go up against has plenty of difficulty dealing with my deck, despite the amount of removal they have.
Or is Priest just had match up for Rogue in general?
I play a weird deck (Tempo rogue, different from Miracle (no auctioneers) and N'zoth (no N'zoth, obviously :P) so I probably don't have the same answer as most rogues.
But yes, I do struggle with priests. My deck runs a low number of BIG threats (Rag and Cairne) and typically they're able to Entomb both. It doesn't have a pressure turn like N'zoth or a big combo turn like Auctioneer. My high value lower drops are also risky plays, as Huckster can be stolen and is EXTREMELY valuable. Any shadowcaster clones that I make can be taken as well. If I win, it's usually because of a strong opener that forces them to death or entomb a tomb pillager, or from tempo with a bunch of 4 drops that they can't remove. I play 2 azure drakes, 2 skulkers, 2 shadowcasters, and Cairne, which all have 4 attack. If I can play a bunch of those in a row I'm in a good position.
Obviously when you play sap incorrectly it is going to seem really weak. That can be said of any card really. How good would consecration seem if you used it against an opponent who only has a single big minion on the board?
You're making a case against bad players, not sap.
Edit: to answer your question; sap constantly wins games by removing taunts when you have lethal....
^This.
Also, I've literally never heard anyone 'praise' sap - to me it's just a useful rogue card, but I wouldn't call it OP or anything. Although to be fair, sap vs turn 6 Savannah Highmane is really, really good.
^And this. Sap is a HUGE tempo loss gain against Highmane, while playing MR Hunter it is my biggest fear against Rogue when dropping SH; far too many games wrecked/lost by this "underwhelming" card. Yes, it gives you your card back, but now SH costs me 2 turns and 12 mana which can lose you the game right then and there.
At the moment, I'm hovering around rank 14, though I have been able to reach rank 8 in the past.
That said, I'm not playing a typical dragon priest. It's a N'zoth deathrattle/dragon hybrid. The closest comparison I can make to it is the N'zoth/dragon control Paladin, though, more tempo based than control.
Rogue certainly isn't my best match up (the standard N'zoth control Paladin is), for I have gotten completely steam rolled before. Though, if I recall, it was mostly due to my opponent drawing great, and me drawing badly.
Just as a side note, I will say that the worst matchup for that deck, from what I've seen, is freeze mage. I find it nearly impossible to beat them.
you can use it as a tempo gain. your oponent play tirion, you can kill it but you first sap it. Your opponent will not have a better card so he play it again and you kill it. you gained a turn.
As a temporary taunt removal. can give you lethal or put your opponent at low health. you can finish him with spells.
the use i almost always use, as a defence. a sapped minion is a minion that cannot attack next turn. specially usefull against aggro (for example the 7/7 from shaman).
sap a deathrattle minion. in this case it is better than killing it.
you can use it as a tempo gain. your oponent play tirion, you can kill it but you first sap it. Your opponent will not have a better card so he play it again and you kill it. you gained a turn.
As a temporary taunt removal. can give you lethal or put your opponent at low health. you can finish him with spells.
the use i almost always use, as a defence. a sapped minion is a minion that cannot attack next turn. specially usefull against aggro (for example the 7/7 from shaman).
sap a deathrattle minion. in this case it is better than killing it.
It's also a killer against miracle rogue - if you can sap their Pillager, you often deny them a coin for their Auctioneer turn, or force them to drop it again turn 5 and avoid a better play. It often singlehandedly delays the miracle turn, which is often the difference between winning and losing.
I came in here expecting yet another whine plz nerf thread. Thankfully it wasn't.
Zep is an OP cards there is no denying that. However it's tough to use correctly. Do you need to keep it to win? can you gain enough tempo to use it now? Should I keep it in mull for highmane or innervate openings? If I sap now can I close the game out in the next turn, even though he replays that chillmaw?
these are all interesting questions, promoting decision making and for me sap is one of my favorite cards.
HS has often been criticised for simply being curvestone and Zep completely trashes all those midrange 'on curve' playstyles.
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Just now, I beat a Rogue with my Dragon/N'zoth Priest (its a very fun deck), and about half way through the game, I happen to play Chillmaw. At this time, the Rogue only had 2, 3/3 minions on the board, so I would clear his board if he were to kill it or just trade. However, he decided to use Sap on it. I had nothing else on the board, so he obviously went face, doing a measly a 6 damage when I was at full health, and played an Azure Drake along side Sap.
Thing is, I wasn't drawing that well, and I happened to play Chillmaw on curve. My next draw wasn't any better, so....I played Chillmaw again, forcing him to kill it, and nearly clear his board.
This is my problem with Sap. It is only temporary removal, yet people use it as permanent removal. I can understand that in some cases, Sap can be very useful if you happen to have lethal on the board/in hand, and need to get rid of a pesky taunt, or possibly save you from losing the game on the spot for at least a turn or two. But I've seen people Sap legendaries such as Ysera, Emperor Thaurissan, etc. when they have so little pressure on the board! Sapping those minions, when you have little to no pressure against your opponent, does NOTHING. They'll just play it again the next turn, and you'll be forced to deal with it in some other fashion.
Sap doesn't appear to be as good as most people think. Or, I've only seen cases where it is used badly. Surprisingly, I have yet to see a case where Sap wins a game for someone. Its very situational, yet people gravitate towards using it as much as Mages do Fireballs. Does anyone have an instance where Sap was actually very useful, and possibly won them the game? Cause so far, I'm not convinced.
You're making a case against bad players, not sap.
Edit: to answer your question; sap constantly wins games by removing taunts when you have lethal....
Well it mostly works when you wanna take a taunt off the board to hit the face or set up lethal next turn with the board you have now and the spells you have in hand.You don't stall with it,you set up lethal with it.
But it is really underwhelming.
The 1st step towards a better game is firing Mike Donais! We had enough of his "skillful" balances!
#FireMikeDonais
Sap doesn't win you the game within 1 or 2 turns after playing it. It creates a domino effect by giving the user a slight tempo edge, which will result in a final outcome (bursting him with leeroy for exact lethal) that would be impossible if Sap wasn't used 5 turns ago.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
OP found out that rogue has a higher skillcap than other clases, yay.
Sap is an excellent card and has won me countless games. Like already has been said, it is a pure tempo card.
I also know the situation you decribe, where it is used pointlessly - the reason for that is, that the rogue just had no other options. Sapping it saves you a turn, possibly drawing into a Miracle Turn or another Sap, Shadowstrike, whatever. Surely it was no comfortable play for the rogue to sap the Chillmaw, butif he ignores it and has no other options he is not even getting any face damage, so he is desperate enough to sap it without any following plays in hand. That said, at that point you already had won the game.
Arena Leaderboard EU - September 2018: #47 (@7.77 Wins Average)
Sap is there for Tempo mostly, you can use it to regain board advantage, dealing with the opponent's board in a more effective way a turn later, applying pressure, effectively silencing a buffed minion or just bypassing taunts for lethal or pressure. It's a great card overall.
in the previous version,using sap for shredder or sludge belcher will give you good tempo
With no knowledge of the opponent's hand, it's impossible to say that sapping "bad" sap targets is the wrong move. Sometimes you just happen to have a ton of stuff in your hand that trades REALLY unfavorably with something, and you'd rather get rid of him and try to create a board than try to deal with it. There are other times where tempo is just going to snowball forever and you absolutely have to get rid of something, even temporarily. This is where I can understand a bad sap like Emperor. Sure, you're giving him a free second tick of his ability - but the fact that he's sapping it means he had no way of getting rid of it, so that second tick was going to go off anyway. This way, if he wants a second tick he has to spend another 6 mana. He probably had a plan for the next turn and now has to decide whether to execute that plan or play Emperor again.
Sap on Ysera isn't even bad - I'd classify that as a perfectly acceptable sap target. She generates no tempo the turn she's played but the cards she creates are dangerous. By sapping it you've essentially made them spend 9 mana for a random dream card. If they want to play her again, that's essentially another FULL turn wasted, so 2 turns of doing nothing while you create a board that can kill her or push for lethal. The last thing you want to do is leave her up to get a Ysera Awakens and clear your board. These are *exactly* the kinds of cards you want to sap as it's an absolutely enormous tempo loss!
Another good example of a card you want to sap is the second Twin-Emperor. Against C'thun decks, you typically don't have many options to sap. But that second emperor doesn't have the "summon another emperor" text and still costs 7 mana. If you can kill emperor 1 and sap back emperor 2, you leave them with a 7 mana 4/6 in their hand which is just terrible.
Tahladnas and gho4st are correct. Sap's goal is to create a tempo swing (and let you do something else as well the same turn, which many removals don't leave you mana for) and I find myself using it as a tempo play WAY more than as a taunt removal. Having 2 saps in hand on turn 6 against hunter is an absolute dream - you know they're trying to create a sticky board for Call of the Wild. Turn 6 you sap the highmane, play a minion. Turn 7 you sap that highmane again, play another minion, and turn 8 they call of the wild on an empty board which you easily clear. THAT is how sap is supposed to work.
That was very well said, thank you kitsel.
If I may ask, how often do you run into a dragon priest, and how well do you normally perform against them?
I ask, because it appears as if every Rogue I go up against has plenty of difficulty dealing with my deck, despite the amount of removal they have.
Or is Priest just had match up for Rogue in general?
What?! Rarely do I loose to a Priest while playing Miracle, only bad matches for Rogue are Shaman and Druid atm
Sap is meant to buy time.
Shaku, the Collector gave me the Plague
Obviously when you play sap incorrectly it is going to seem really weak. That can be said of any card really. How good would consecration seem if you used it against an opponent who only has a single big minion on the board?
lossgain against Highmane, while playing MR Hunter it is my biggest fear against Rogue when dropping SH; far too many games wrecked/lost by this "underwhelming" card. Yes, it gives you your card back, but now SH costs me 2 turns and 12 mana which can lose you the game right then and there.At the moment, I'm hovering around rank 14, though I have been able to reach rank 8 in the past.
That said, I'm not playing a typical dragon priest. It's a N'zoth deathrattle/dragon hybrid. The closest comparison I can make to it is the N'zoth/dragon control Paladin, though, more tempo based than control.
Rogue certainly isn't my best match up (the standard N'zoth control Paladin is), for I have gotten completely steam rolled before. Though, if I recall, it was mostly due to my opponent drawing great, and me drawing badly.
Just as a side note, I will say that the worst matchup for that deck, from what I've seen, is freeze mage. I find it nearly impossible to beat them.
sap has many uses.
you can use it as a tempo gain. your oponent play tirion, you can kill it but you first sap it. Your opponent will not have a better card so he play it again and you kill it. you gained a turn.
As a temporary taunt removal. can give you lethal or put your opponent at low health. you can finish him with spells.
the use i almost always use, as a defence. a sapped minion is a minion that cannot attack next turn. specially usefull against aggro (for example the 7/7 from shaman).
sap a deathrattle minion. in this case it is better than killing it.
I came in here expecting yet another whine plz nerf thread. Thankfully it wasn't.
Zep is an OP cards there is no denying that.
However it's tough to use correctly.
Do you need to keep it to win?
can you gain enough tempo to use it now?
Should I keep it in mull for highmane or innervate openings?
If I sap now can I close the game out in the next turn, even though he replays that chillmaw?
these are all interesting questions, promoting decision making and for me sap is one of my favorite cards.
HS has often been criticised for simply being curvestone and Zep completely trashes all those midrange 'on curve' playstyles.