Hearthpwn

It's hard to evaluate how op a card is if it's the only one of it's type. It's a win more card, a comeback card, removal, damage, and a board all in one card. I think it's under-costed for what it does but at the same time it revitalized an otherwise dead deck similar to what IGB did to zoo when brm came out. Hunter is by far my most played class and I have played since the old beast hunter in vanilla before naxx and every competitive hunter deck in between. It's dr boom/tirion level good but the difference is it's a class card which makes it acceptable imo.

Quote from GrotDFO >>

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

So how do you balance it so that midrange Hunter actually has a chance versus control decks? Increasing the mana cost will just tip the scales in favor of control decks in an unfair way. 9 mana doesn't work because your opponent may have 10 mana next turn and can play something even more op. 10 mana doesn't work because you are likely completely fucked by that point. 8 mana is the perfect amount to be a really good, but not op, card and balance things out against control. Life would be pretty boring without this card. 

Midrange hunter was always favored versus control, especially warrior, even before Call of the Wild, so i don't really know what you're talking about. It had, just like now, slightly unfavoured matchups vs zoo and aggro. The card needs a 10 mana cost in order to at least give the opponent a chance to fight back and stabilize. As a turn 8 play it's simply too strong, especially following a highmane and being close to lethal'd as you often are versus hunters. it becomes a struggle, not just to clear the board, but to survive, so even if you do clear the board, you are often finished by spells/bow/hero power either way, There's just too much to deal with.

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

Quote from tictactucroc >>

9 mana doesn't work because your opponent may have 10 mana next turn and can play something even more op.

Wait... 1 mana Tunnel Trogg doesn't work because your opponent may have 2 mana next turn and can play Bloodfen Raptor to kill it !!!

OH MY GOD!!

Tunnel trogg so bad, PLZ blizzard make it 0 mana !!

 

/call of the wild logic

 Based on all your replies here and elsewhere it's your logic that should be in question especially with the analogy made above...

 Go ahead then, question my logic with good arguments, I'm listening. Based on your single, non-contrubuting comment I can tell that you're a troll. See ? I can do that too.

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

Quote from GrotDFO >>

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

So how do you balance it so that midrange Hunter actually has a chance versus control decks? Increasing the mana cost will just tip the scales in favor of control decks in an unfair way. 9 mana doesn't work because your opponent may have 10 mana next turn and can play something even more op. 10 mana doesn't work because you are likely completely fucked by that point. 8 mana is the perfect amount to be a really good, but not op, card and balance things out against control. Life would be pretty boring without this card. 

Midrange hunter was always favored versus control, especially warrior, even before Call of the Wild, so i don't really know what you're talking about. It had, just like now, slightly unfavoured matchups vs zoo and aggro. The card needs a 10 mana cost in order to at least give the opponent a chance to fight back and stabilize. As a turn 8 play it's simply too strong, especially following a highmane and being close to lethal'd as you often are versus hunters. it becomes a struggle, not just to clear the board, but to survive, so even if you do clear the board, you are often finished by spells/bow/hero power either way, There's just too much to deal with.

 In what meta? I've never played in one where it was favored against control. It would have shown up more if it was and it had no late game besides Highmane, which is easily dealt with. 

Like I said, at 10 mana you are likely already dead as Hunter versus control and Call of the Wild won't help. Thus, killing any sort of balance and moving things to favor control for the sake of it and killing one more midrange option. Even 9 mana doesn't work without upsetting that balance. It also buys time against aggro if you make it that late in the game. 

I dont miss the days Of MC into boom Into tirion, stupid fu***ng deck

Quote from Starcraftguy1988 >>

I dont miss the days Of MC into boom Into tirion, stupid fu***ng deck

As you can see by my post count, I'm not much for forum posting...but after reading much of the posts on this topic, I wanted to try to make a respectable case defending CotW.  First let me get a couple things out of the way: Midrange hunter is my current favorite deck.  Also, I DO think CotW is by far the best 8 drop in the game.  It's stupid to deny that.  However, I don't think it needs to be nerfed, and I think the winrates of midrange hunter somewhat speaks to that.  sub 50% winrates against Zoo, aggro sham, miracle rogue...and the decks that it beats are other midrange, and some control matchups.

My point is, I feel like there is a lot more disdain against CotW because it feels really bad to lose to it.  It feels mindless and the decks it beats are considered more "brainy", thus it feels like you had the match in hand before Call of the Bullshit showed up.  I would have to say though, in playing many games with the deck on ladder, CotW directly impacts the outcome of the game much fewer times than you would expect.  Many times it either is win-more, or it just buys you another turn before you are out of plays.  Furthermore, the nightmarish double CotW (which I agree is almost always an autowin) is decently rare since the hunter class has absolutely 0 card draw.  It's also not preferred to have both of your CotW in your hand because it slows down your early game, which is crucial to a midrange hunter. (I had to laugh when I read someone saying that they thought hunters actually mulligan for CotW)

 I would agree that midrange hunter and secret pally have a lot of similarities in terms of how the decks pilot themselves more or less, and you simply look to play your best curve i.e. bat > elek > bow/companion/grub > houndmaster/wolf > tiger/kudo/rhino > highmane > whatever shit is lying around still > Call.  If you get a curve out, the deck is very strong regardless of CotW...but I think the same can be said for any playable deck.  SO...long story short, I think losing to CotW just feels bad, and that makes the pitchforks come out more than anything else.

I think nerfing CotW would be a mistake, as it would probably give the deck just enough of a hit to the win-rate to knock it out of relevance.  Hunter would probably return to the state that it sat in just prior to the release of standard.  I actually don't believe there are any cards right now that should be nerfed, since the standard ladder has more parity than I have ever seen in a hearthstone meta.

Quote from GrotDFO >>

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

Quote from GrotDFO >>

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

So how do you balance it so that midrange Hunter actually has a chance versus control decks? Increasing the mana cost will just tip the scales in favor of control decks in an unfair way. 9 mana doesn't work because your opponent may have 10 mana next turn and can play something even more op. 10 mana doesn't work because you are likely completely fucked by that point. 8 mana is the perfect amount to be a really good, but not op, card and balance things out against control. Life would be pretty boring without this card. 

Midrange hunter was always favored versus control, especially warrior, even before Call of the Wild, so i don't really know what you're talking about. It had, just like now, slightly unfavoured matchups vs zoo and aggro. The card needs a 10 mana cost in order to at least give the opponent a chance to fight back and stabilize. As a turn 8 play it's simply too strong, especially following a highmane and being close to lethal'd as you often are versus hunters. it becomes a struggle, not just to clear the board, but to survive, so even if you do clear the board, you are often finished by spells/bow/hero power either way, There's just too much to deal with.

 In what meta? I've never played in one where it was favored against control. It would have shown up more if it was and it had no late game besides Highmane, which is easily dealt with. 

Like I said, at 10 mana you are likely already dead as Hunter versus control and Call of the Wild won't help. Thus, killing any sort of balance and moving things to favor control for the sake of it and killing one more midrange option. Even 9 mana doesn't work without upsetting that balance. It also buys time against aggro if you make it that late in the game. 

What... ? dude, the whole point of midrange is that it has favorable matchups vs control and bad matchups vs aggro or flood decks like zoo. The whole point of Aggro is that it generally has good matchups vs midrange but can struggle vs heavy control, notice anything there ? "Highmane easily dealt with", lol, you're just trolling at this point, good day sir.

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from hammshake >>

It's hard to evaluate how op a card is if it's the only one of it's type. It's a win more card, a comeback card, removal, damage, and a board all in one card. I think it's under-costed for what it does but at the same time it revitalized an otherwise dead deck. Hunter is by far my most played class and I have played since the old beast hunter in vanilla before naxx and every competitive hunter deck in between. It's dr boom/tirion level good but the difference is it's a class card which makes it acceptable imo.

 This card is way stronger and versatile than tirion and isn't a legendary, there's nothing acceptable there.

And as said many times, you should stop with the false argument "it revived a dead class". Yes but a 9 or 10 mana call of the wild would have done the same thing so this is pointless, off topic and borderline trolling.

I understand you are full of salt but call of the wild is the only card that keeps hunter alive as a class because Blizzard has nerfed all the face hunter cards : leper gnome, knife juggler, hunter's mark, iron beak owl, arcane golem and the list goes on. 

I say again call of the wild is the only thing that keeps hunter alive. 

If we ware to nerf all good class cards why have more than one class anyway?

Think about it like chess. 

A queen is much more powerful than a horse. Does this mean the Queen needs to be nerfed? 

A game where all cards have the same power would be extremely boring. 

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from hammshake >>

Quote from tictactucroc >>

Quote from hammshake >>

It's hard to evaluate how op a card is if it's the only one of it's type. It's a win more card, a comeback card, removal, damage, and a board all in one card. I think it's under-costed for what it does but at the same time it revitalized an otherwise dead deck. Hunter is by far my most played class and I have played since the old beast hunter in vanilla before naxx and every competitive hunter deck in between. It's dr boom/tirion level good but the difference is it's a class card which makes it acceptable imo.

 This card is way stronger and versatile than tirion and isn't a legendary, there's nothing acceptable there.

And as said many times, you should stop with the false argument "it revived a dead class". Yes but a 9 or 10 mana call of the wild would have done the same thing so this is pointless, off topic and borderline trolling.

How is this off topic and trolling? At 9 mana you can no longer play a 2 drop or a hero power with it and at that point it might as well be 10 mana since hunter have almost no good 1 mana cards to play along with it. It would probably still be played only as a one of because having an 8 mana cost COW in your hand for half the game is already bad enough considering how bad hunters early game is. So let's take legendaries out of the equation. there are equivalent/stronger class cards than COW such as tunnel trogg, flamewreath faceless, thing from below, ravaging ghoul, fiery war axe, imp gang boss, darkshire councilman, Savannah highmane, etc just to name a few. All of these cards are at least in the same tier and are close to or just as impactful as COW for their mana cost . The only difference is that COW is a higher cost than most of these cards so it seems like it has a bigger impact.  When I'm playing hunter and I get COW in my hand before turn 5 it's detrimental becasue you are so reliant on your early game to even get to the point of playing it. I'm not saying it's not op but it's definitely not worthy of a nerf

 Sorry I won't bother making a decent reply to someone thinking CotW is in the same tier as any other card you mentionned. ALL of these cards have appropriate mana cost, yes even Flamewreathed faceless has an appropriate mana cost for what it does. CotW DOESN'T. Don't discuss this, it isn't an opinion, it is a fact.

Make a 0 mana 2/2 wisp. It will be OP. And you will come here and say "yes but mana wyrm can be a 15/3 and be more impactful for the mana cost !!" but that 2/2 wisp won't be any less OP. And just because that 2/2 wisp will give priest a good early game and revive the class, doesn't justify making a OP 2/2 wisp in the first place.

Hunter sucks ? Too bad. It doesn't mean it deserves the most broken card in the game AGAIN. Nerf buzzard ? No problem give them mad scientist. Mad scientist Wild only ? No problem give them Call of the wild. This class is pure troll material and is toxic for Hearthstone.

Now praise me because I actually made a half decent reply.

"This card is way stronger and versatile than tirion and isn't a legendary"

Dude , Tirion alone can trade with all the animal companions summoned by Call of the Wild and than give the pali one of the best weapens in the game .

There is no higher standalone value in the game than Tirion .

You cry so much.. Think...without this card will be hunter totally dead....

Quote from lovejohnny >>

I'd probably chance CotW to 9 mana to prevent hero power on the same turn. It's already such a huge swing with one card.

It basically turns hunter into combo druid in a way. They play the same.

Lol so much salt. Call of the Wild is completely fair. If you're a good enough player you can easily get around it if you have the right cards and make the right choices. As a player that uses hunter a lot, I've had games where I've used BOTH my Call of the Wilds, and still lost. Because they simply had the cards to deal with it. If you face a hunter and are not prepared for a Call by turn 8, or at least expecting it on turn 8, then you deserve the loss. Call is pretty much the only viable hunter finisher and is holding hunter together since all the card nerfs that have been mentioned. Even the N'zoth hunter decks aren't enough to give hunters a good chance against any deck. And before anyone else goes on to complain about hunters, think about this, how many Hunter decks do you see used in Tournaments? Now compare that to Shaman and Lock. If the card was THAT good, people in tournaments would use Hunter more and use that card. I have nothing against Locks or Shamans, every class has an unfair card or two, but its not game breaking. You just gotta simply learn to play around it or just take the loss like a man and move on without crying over it.

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

Quote from GrotDFO >>

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

Quote from GrotDFO >>

Quote from nocontrol1111 >>

So how do you balance it so that midrange Hunter actually has a chance versus control decks? Increasing the mana cost will just tip the scales in favor of control decks in an unfair way. 9 mana doesn't work because your opponent may have 10 mana next turn and can play something even more op. 10 mana doesn't work because you are likely completely fucked by that point. 8 mana is the perfect amount to be a really good, but not op, card and balance things out against control. Life would be pretty boring without this card. 

Midrange hunter was always favored versus control, especially warrior, even before Call of the Wild, so i don't really know what you're talking about. It had, just like now, slightly unfavoured matchups vs zoo and aggro. The card needs a 10 mana cost in order to at least give the opponent a chance to fight back and stabilize. As a turn 8 play it's simply too strong, especially following a highmane and being close to lethal'd as you often are versus hunters. it becomes a struggle, not just to clear the board, but to survive, so even if you do clear the board, you are often finished by spells/bow/hero power either way, There's just too much to deal with.

 In what meta? I've never played in one where it was favored against control. It would have shown up more if it was and it had no late game besides Highmane, which is easily dealt with. 

Like I said, at 10 mana you are likely already dead as Hunter versus control and Call of the Wild won't help. Thus, killing any sort of balance and moving things to favor control for the sake of it and killing one more midrange option. Even 9 mana doesn't work without upsetting that balance. It also buys time against aggro if you make it that late in the game. 

What... ? dude, the whole point of midrange is that it has favorable matchups vs control and bad matchups vs aggro or flood decks like zoo. The whole point of Aggro is that it generally has good matchups vs midrange but can struggle vs heavy control, notice anything there ? "Highmane easily dealt with", lol, you're just trolling at this point, good day sir.

 Lol, dude we're talking specifically midrange Hunter, which historically hasn't been that viable until now. Also, if you can't deal with Highmane, you simply need to get better.  

Nerf "nerf thread"!

I like hunter very much, and I am happy that facehunter is gone in favor of midrange hunter (so that complaints against hunter fall into a more brainless category than the class they complain against).

However, I do recognise that CotW is just OP, it doesn't matter if it is the only card that keeps hunter alive (which I think to be false, btw) it is just HUGE value for its cost (3 beasts, buff, taunt, charge, no summoning RNG compared with basic companion card).

The idea that it's the only card that gives hunter some real chance cannot be an argument: balance of a class should NEVER be bound to balance of one card (if that happens, that's a clear design failure).
Just buff other cards (or create with adventure/expansions) together with CotW adjustment, to balance out Hunter as a class.

You can't just mix alltogether balance of Hunter with balance of CotW. One is a class, the other is one single class card.

(For example, I'd like a sort of Marksman Hunter, based around good weapons and weapon synergies, arrows etc, something similar to Pirate Warrior, not just beast, beast, beast... Yogg hunter is there but is quite niche and not really what I mean)

PS: CotW is not the only card that would need some minor adjustment. IMO Thing from Below and Flamewreathed Faceless need same treatment.

Quote from THEREALBabyMC >>

As you can see by my post count, I'm not much for forum posting...but after reading much of the posts on this topic, I wanted to try to make a respectable case defending CotW.  First let me get a couple things out of the way: Midrange hunter is my current favorite deck.  Also, I DO think CotW is by far the best 8 drop in the game.  It's stupid to deny that.  However, I don't think it needs to be nerfed, and I think the winrates of midrange hunter somewhat speaks to that.  sub 50% winrates against Zoo, aggro sham, miracle rogue...and the decks that it beats are other midrange, and some control matchups.

My point is, I feel like there is a lot more disdain against CotW because it feels really bad to lose to it.  It feels mindless and the decks it beats are considered more "brainy", thus it feels like you had the match in hand before Call of the Bullshit showed up.  I would have to say though, in playing many games with the deck on ladder, CotW directly impacts the outcome of the game much fewer times than you would expect.  Many times it either is win-more, or it just buys you another turn before you are out of plays.  Furthermore, the nightmarish double CotW (which I agree is almost always an autowin) is decently rare since the hunter class has absolutely 0 card draw.  It's also not preferred to have both of your CotW in your hand because it slows down your early game, which is crucial to a midrange hunter. (I had to laugh when I read someone saying that they thought hunters actually mulligan for CotW)

 I would agree that midrange hunter and secret pally have a lot of similarities in terms of how the decks pilot themselves more or less, and you simply look to play your best curve i.e. bat > elek > bow/companion/grub > houndmaster/wolf > tiger/kudo/rhino > highmane > whatever shit is lying around still > Call.  If you get a curve out, the deck is very strong regardless of CotW...but I think the same can be said for any playable deck.  SO...long story short, I think losing to CotW just feels bad, and that makes the pitchforks come out more than anything else.

I think nerfing CotW would be a mistake, as it would probably give the deck just enough of a hit to the win-rate to knock it out of relevance.  Hunter would probably return to the state that it sat in just prior to the release of standard.  I actually don't believe there are any cards right now that should be nerfed, since the standard ladder has more parity than I have ever seen in a hearthstone meta.