Hearthpwn

shaman drawing flameweather faceless and priest not drawing sw:d means loss of the game for the priest most of the time 

When a hard removal is used it's meant to swing the tempo in your favor not to put you on an equal footing 

Overload isn't even a draw back these days.. He uses it to power up his trogg... Lava shocks/eternalsentinels the next turn to make a five mana play.... there are effectively 4 cards to cancel the overload this expansion.. 

These are the reasons why people are feeling bad about the card.. Shamans are playing a four mana 7/7 without losing anything most of the times... 

You're paying 6 mana for a 7/7, there are two other cards that can unlock overload, and the overload actually powers up Tunnel Trogg. And best of all, the card is a common. Meaning many players have easy access to it, and ergo why the card is so popular.

Quote from Angrybear52 >>

Fireguard Destroyer was a very powerful inclusion in almost Shaman decks before Flamewreathed Faceless came around!

Quote from Angrybear52 >>

Quote from GiantSalame >>

I'm way more concerned about Darkshire Council than this card, seriously zoo is just so strong right now, it shits on this card easily

 I agree, but that's not really relevant to this thread.

Quote from Neophold >>

Quote from Dr_phobos >>

shaman drawing flameweather faceless and priest not drawing sw:d means loss of the game for the priest most of the time 

When a hard removal is used it's meant to swing the tempo in your favor not to put you on an equal footing 

Overload isn't even a draw back these days.. He uses it to power up his trogg... Lava shocks/eternalsentinels the next turn to make a five mana play.... there are effectively 4 cards to cancel the overload this expansion.. 

These are the reasons why people are feeling bad about the card.. Shamans are playing a four mana 7/7 without losing anything most of the times... 

 

 So what you're telling me Is that Frostbolt should cost 3 because It would otherwise buff Manawyrm on 2, right?

Your argument Is wholly flawed. If you let a Tunnel Trogg survive for 4 turns you lost regardless, same thing If you left a Manawyrm alive from turn 1 to 4, you've lost the game regardless at that point.

Also, might as well tailor this into this post: 

*Slowly claps hands* You crybabies got my comment removed because I disagreed with you and you abused the living hell out of the automated deletion system. Well done, proving my point.

Quote from Neophold >>

Sorry to break your bubble mate, but Frostbolt used to cost 3 mana and still saw play.

If he floats a mana to play It on 2, you're in the lead tempo-wise. If your mulligan sucked, we're back to square two; You lost regardless. That's just how aggro works, and It's not centric to Shaman. I've built Aggro Mages and climed to rank 7 with that deck because about 62% of the time, my opponent won't have the right answer to a Manawyrm into coin mirror entity into Frostbolt. Due to the amount of low-mana cards in an aggro, deck, I'm more likely to draw better in my mulligan than you, and thus I'm more likely to snowball and win.

In the end, It's just as likely for him to have Tunnel Trogg as It Is for you to have an answer to It. What do you main? Perhaps I can help you tech. Mind Control Tech Is usually a good anti-aggro card.

I just really cannot get behind this argument against Flamewreathed Faceless.

Your likelihood of drawing a faceless flame by turn 4 is the same as drawing a SW:D or Hex by turn 4. That's just simply math. If you're complaining about agro shaman, its about Tunnel Trogg, Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic and Feral Spirits. (Three of these I'm not even very concerned with).

Tunnel Trogg has its fair share of cousins a few examples, Mana Wyrm, Northshire Cleric, Secretkeeper, hell even Flame Imp. The traits all these 1 drops share are if your able to keep *insert card* alive until turn 4 you might as well concede because the damage done is pretty damn severe. These 4 one drops can single handily defeat your opponents. The only difference is that the cards that benefit tunnel trogg are often a higher value then cards/effect that boost or influence these other 1 drops. I'm looking at mage specifically as cards with overload can either remove or summon, while mage spells are often 1 for 1. 

Totem Golem is an above average 2 drop. While it' hasn't been as prevalent as say Knife Juggler or Shielded Minibot, it does not have the same utility/damage output that these two drops have had. Now, that they've been rotated out (or nerfed), the problem with this card is the fact that on turn 2, followed by a second Totem Golem on Turn 3 (1 overload), or a Tuskarr Totemic + Totem Golem on T3 (with coin) is a real issue. The only board clear that can reliably clear this are not available for at least 2 more turns (brawl, flamestrike, DOOM!, lol), and to kill even the first one you need either 2 cards, or some form of hard removal, which leaves the initiative with Shaman (with a 1 drop tunnel trogg, and an empty board on your side, despite -1 mana). I believe this is the card that throws everyone in a loop. If it was a 3/3 trading into it or removing it would be much easier. As it stands it can clear a minion and dmg face, eat two cards, or does a perpetual 3 dmg to your face. With Shielded Minibot and Knife Juggler gone (or nerfed) Totem Golem is an uncontested 2 drop, that most spells cannot deal with, or most minions at this stage in the game.

Tuskarr Totemic and Feral wolves do not need defending. Tuskarr Totemic mostly summons 0/X in 75% of the cases, 12.5% of the time is a 1/1, and 12.5 of the time is a 3/4 (which is where the problem lies, although on turn 3 your closer to an AoE, so a little less of an issue). Feral spirits have been boosting Unbound Elemental and has been a 3* 2 2/3's with 2 overload this entire time, and has even existed before Aggro shaman was thought of (well... you know what I mean). Even after Tunnel Trogg was released, Feral spirits saw little-to-no play, even in more optimized shaman decks.

Now, back to the original topic, Flamewreathed Faceless, a 4 mana 7/7. Is there anything we can compare this too? Oh! Handlock's turn 4 8/8. While a big set of stats is nothing to sneer at this early in the game, if it wasn't for the fact that shaman is capable of controlling the board from turn 1-3 the 7/7 on 4 would be just another 4 drop for you guys. However, because its following a strong 1 drop, a strong 2 drop, and a strong 3 drop or at least an on curve drop (Totem Golem), Flamewreathed Faceless seems overpowered... but guess what guys? We dealt with this already, but on a 8 turn curve... Secretkeeper (+secret) or Coin + Shielded Minibot, Shielded Minibot, Muster for Battle, Piloted Shredder, Lotheb, Dr. 6, Dr.7, Tirion... As strong as shaman get, every single powerhouse that's unique to shaman, limits shamans availability the next turn. These 4 overload reducing cards that cancels out all the overload, aren't available infinitely, and will it rarely ever reduce the overload cost by 2 which is the same as these 4 cards cost independently.

Also on the note of shaman being strong, and weaker later, when the next rotation comes Shaman's going to lose Elemental Destruction, Thunder Bluff Valiant, Tuskarr Totemic, Totem Golem, Lava Shock, Healing Wave, and Lava Shock, three of these cards are prevalent in Aggro Shaman, and if Blizzard choses not to support the agro archetype, or move at least Thunder Bluff Valiant and Tuskarr Totemic to classic set, we're going to lose two of the three archetypes available to us currently (and evolve shaman is the third), and that means in 6 1/2 months shaman will probably be about as popular as they were 6 1/2 months ago, so just let us have our time in the spot light, despite everyones dislike for popular agro decks (including mine, but I'll defend Shaman, even agro shaman has the right to shine), soon it'll just be another relic from the past. After all, every class has had at least one type of cancer infesting ladder... (deathrattle priest, face hunter, patron warrior, mech mage, secret pally, zoolock, miracle rogue, midrange druid).

Edit: Personally I've found a AoE heavy Priest with a single SW:D, and Acidic Swamp Ooze who just stops agro shaman dead in it's tracks, Evolve Shaman has been doing really well for me (went 7-1 last night (two agro, both wins vs them)), the only tech I have is Harrison Jones, and it pulls its weight vs Paladin, Warrior, and Rogue as well, and finally Zoolock can win the board, be cleared, win board, be cleared, win the board again, and still beat agro shaman.

Afterthought: Can we refer to Agro ShamanS as ASS's? It would make this entire subject much funnier.

I honestly have more of a problems with Thing from Below than Flamewreathed Faceless.

it's often a 3 mana 5/5 taunt without overload....which makes it very hard to deal with.

Quote from IEatAnimals >>

The complaints with the Flamewreathed Faceless is so overblown it's hilarious. Warlocks have been dropping turn 4 giants since vanilla, Druids are almost as bad with Wild Growth/Innervate. It used to be that everyone had to run at least 1 BGH, but now that BGH is 5 mana they just have to run 2 class removals. And class removals are garbage unless you're a Warrior. Blizzard knew this, which is why BGH was 3 mana to begin with.

Everyone wanted a "slower" meta, and this is what you get!

Quote from Brimbus >>

in all honesty i believe this card would be fine with 1 less health or attack.

Just get used to your new overlord Dr Four already. Clearly the card is not balanced vis a vis any other card at that mana cost. Blizzard obviously could see that, but decided its ok for some reason. Since they never nerfed dr boom, i am dubious they will nerf this card. On the upside, having this card in play kind of makes evolve bad since you are just about guaranteed to get a weaker minion than a 7/7 so there's that. All in all, i think it is best to accept that we are stuck with this card in the meta for the next 2 years as it seems this is the direction blizz decoded to take shaman out of pity after giving them so many weak cards for so long. Not saying i agree with the decision, but it is what it is. They feel shaman dserves to be op for a while. 

Quote from Neophold >>

Quote from Dr_phobos >>

shaman drawing flameweather faceless and priest not drawing sw:d means loss of the game for the priest most of the time 

When a hard removal is used it's meant to swing the tempo in your favor not to put you on an equal footing 

Overload isn't even a draw back these days.. He uses it to power up his trogg... Lava shocks/eternalsentinels the next turn to make a five mana play.... there are effectively 4 cards to cancel the overload this expansion.. 

These are the reasons why people are feeling bad about the card.. Shamans are playing a four mana 7/7 without losing anything most of the times... 

 

 So what you're telling me Is that Frostbolt should cost 3 because It would otherwise buff Manawyrm on 2, right?

Your argument Is wholly flawed. If you let a Tunnel Trogg survive for 4 turns you lost regardless, same thing If you left a Manawyrm alive from turn 1 to 4, you've lost the game regardless at that point.

Also, might as well tailor this into this post: 

*Slowly claps hands* You crybabies got my comment removed because I disagreed with you and you abused the living hell out of the automated deletion system. Well done, proving my point.

The flaw in your analysis is that there's a difference between "imbalanced" and "broken / overpowered".

Imbalanced: More powerful than any other card of its type, mana cost, so on. Faceless certainly fits this definition.

Broken: Any card which is essential to a deck/strategy which, as a whole, intractably centralizes the game around it.

Put simply, the fact that a card is more powerful than other cards does not necessarily indicate that the game is now flawed and broken because of it. So, a case around the bare fact that Faceless is powerful isn't persuasive on its own in indicating that there is a problem with the game. Blizzard wants you to be battling things out on board against 7/7's on Turn 4, because it's now their idea of fun. Imo, that beats the Miracle Rogue v. Freeze Mage v. Face Hunter roulette.