Not sure if it's just a bug with animations, but I'm pretty sure a transformed C'thun that has been played should be allowed to return to the deck when you play doomcaller. When I played it, it only showed the regular "buff C'thun by 2" animation, and the number of cards in my deck didn't change.
The problem with this is transmogrification. It's not replace Cthun with a sheep its turn Cthun into a sheep. It's still Cthun he's just been trapped inside a sheeps body. The sheep that dies is Cthun.
I think transform effects are meant to prevent cthun from going back into your deck, just like they prevent resurrect effects. Entomb will also counter cthun.
Technically C'Thun was not killed, he simply changed form. That's why Hex is the most powerful removal that currently exists in the game (3-mana for a 0 attack minion compared to the other morphs).
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'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Are you sure? Did you actually get to play C'Thun a second time after the hex, or did you just see the buffing animation on the left side? I just played a game where he was polymorphed (which lead me to this thread), and after playing two Doom Callers he didn't show. My disappointment when I drew my last card...heartbreaking.
Does Deathrattle trigger when you play Polymorph or Hex on a minion? It does not, and it's because the 'event' Death isn't implied in this sequence. Same thing here, your C'thun never died, for the game. As emotional humans we could say that he kinda did, but it does not matter for an IA.
I feel like this interaction might see change after awhile. Doesn't seem right for 3 classes to have a significant counter to C'thun that destroys the use of another card a lot of people are running 2 of, making the effect literally useless because of a loop hole / argument in philosophy.
Half people say it's not C'thun that died, but a sheep. I'd tend to say that's incorrect. Regardless the form he's currently taking it's still C'thun. Just as Yogg'Saron and probably most gods have human appearances, like Nefarian, it is still very much Nefarian in there, he just LOOKS different. Regardless of the shape or form he is in, if C'thun was in the deck, and played, and then was removed from the field in any way requiring damage / killing, Doomcaller should activate. In fact knowing that it doesn't work that way, I may remove 1 Doomcaller from all of my C'thun decks, that's a pretty harsh punishment just for C'thun getting targeted by a removal spell from a specific class.
In my opinion the correct way to "code" Doomcaller would be to run a check if the deck originally contained C'thun, if it no longer has C'thun in the deck, hand, or on the field, then C'thun is returned to the deck.
The only possible card that is in such a grey area I think it could and perhaps should break Doomcallers effect is Mind Control / Entomb. Since then he literally never died (unless the MC'd C'thun did die). However something like that going for Priest, while it's already one of the best late game control decks (with mind control and entomb) that it might become blatantly overpowered in this slowed down control meta, especially with a large advantage over any C'thun deck that draws C'thun early enough to need to use it as not just a finisher, which tends to happen occasionally.
All in all I think Doomcaller's effect should definitely go off even after a polymorph or hex, but that Priest Mind Control and Entomb probably deserve to break that combo due to the wording of the cards, with the exception being if the Mind Controlled C'thun was then killed before the Doomcaller is played. If you were turned into a sheep and killed, would you like your whole family to remember you as "sheep"?
I feel like this interaction might see change after awhile. Doesn't seem right for 3 classes to have a significant counter to C'thun that destroys the use of another card a lot of people are running 2 of, making the effect literally useless because of a loop hole / argument in philosophy.
Apples and oranges though. Sure, priest might have entomb, Mage polymorph, etc, etc, but what do the other classes have? They most certainly have cards, effects or strengths not available to every class. For instance I don't have divine shield as a priest.
There are deck-building games like Dominion which are symmetrical because each player has equal chance to build a similar deck. Then there are games like Hearthstone or Android Netrunner which are asymmetrical. There are differences between classes/roles and in the greater scheme of things these need to balance out.
I've probably had 75% of the C'thuns I've managed to drop get hexed or poly'ed, was kind of annoyed by this interaction. I wasn't sure which way it was going to work out prior to it actually happening in game, but the animation kind of baited me, only to notice that my deck did not get an extra card after I played the Doomcaller.
IMO the difference between this and death rattle is that when any hexed or poly'd minion dies, its a sheep or frog. No deathrattle. However, in keeping with the CCG roots, the original card is going in the discard pile - the original minion is dead - and should be able to return if an effect calls for it. To make matters worse, that damn animation shows your C'thun - even if he isn't coming back - leading to confusion and disappointment.
Doesn't seem right for 3 classes to have a significant counter to C'thun that destroys the use of another card a lot of people are running 2 of, making the effect literally useless because of a loop hole / argument in philosophy.
Every class has access to a polymorph effect in the form of Tinkmaster Overspark.
Having counters to OP cards is important. If you don't want your C'thun Hexed, you might have to bait them out ahead of time by playing your first Doomcaller first. You don't get to cry foul just because someone makes it hard for you to pull off a C'thun miracle and play him up to three times.
In my opinion, C'Thun makes the game a whole lot less fun in a lot of ways, so I'm glad that there are absolute counters to it. I just wish every class had something they could do to it to ensure that it doesn't come back.
I do think that Tinkmaster is a viable option for non-mage/shaman, but you basically just lose if he misses and hits another minion unless you have some other hard counter.
To the point about C'Thun being killed as a sheep/frog, I think it would be apt that the Doomcaller would put a sheep or frog back into your deck if that was his last living form.
I feel like this interaction might see change after awhile. Doesn't seem right for 3 classes to have a significant counter to C'thun that destroys the use of another card a lot of people are running 2 of, making the effect literally useless because of a loop hole / argument in philosophy.
Half people say it's not C'thun that died, but a sheep. I'd tend to say that's incorrect. Regardless the form he's currently taking it's still C'thun. Just as Yogg'Saron and probably most gods have human appearances, like Nefarian, it is still very much Nefarian in there, he just LOOKS different. Regardless of the shape or form he is in, if C'thun was in the deck, and played, and then was removed from the field in any way requiring damage / killing, Doomcaller should activate. In fact knowing that it doesn't work that way, I may remove 1 Doomcaller from all of my C'thun decks, that's a pretty harsh punishment just for C'thun getting targeted by a removal spell from a specific class.
In my opinion the correct way to "code" Doomcaller would be to run a check if the deck originally contained C'thun, if it no longer has C'thun in the deck, hand, or on the field, then C'thun is returned to the deck.
The only possible card that is in such a grey area I think it could and perhaps should break Doomcallers effect is Mind Control / Entomb. Since then he literally never died (unless the MC'd C'thun did die). However something like that going for Priest, while it's already one of the best late game control decks (with mind control and entomb) that it might become blatantly overpowered in this slowed down control meta, especially with a large advantage over any C'thun deck that draws C'thun early enough to need to use it as not just a finisher, which tends to happen occasionally.
All in all I think Doomcaller's effect should definitely go off even after a polymorph or hex, but that Priest Mind Control and Entomb probably deserve to break that combo due to the wording of the cards, with the exception being if the Mind Controlled C'thun was then killed before the Doomcaller is played. If you were turned into a sheep and killed, would you like your whole family to remember you as "sheep"?
This isn't world of warcraft this is a card game. The card says transform a minion into a sheep. He is a sheep. It is working as intended.
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Not sure if it's just a bug with animations, but I'm pretty sure a transformed C'thun that has been played should be allowed to return to the deck when you play doomcaller. When I played it, it only showed the regular "buff C'thun by 2" animation, and the number of cards in my deck didn't change.
Anyone else experienced something like this?
C'thun didn't die (it got transformed and is no longer C'thun) so doomcaller's effect shouldn't proc
The problem with this is transmogrification. It's not replace Cthun with a sheep its turn Cthun into a sheep. It's still Cthun he's just been trapped inside a sheeps body. The sheep that dies is Cthun.
I think transform effects are meant to prevent cthun from going back into your deck, just like they prevent resurrect effects. Entomb will also counter cthun.
Another reason to not play that card.
Just like when you Polymorph/Hex a Murloc Warleader, he doesnt return with Anyfin Can Happen; the same happens with the other cards.
Technically C'Thun was not killed, he simply changed form. That's why Hex is the most powerful removal that currently exists in the game (3-mana for a 0 attack minion compared to the other morphs).
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
I had a hexed Cthun return to my deck today with Doomcaller... buffs and all
That also happens with murlocs when you go Anyfin. If cthun is Entombed that should also be true.
Are you sure? Did you actually get to play C'Thun a second time after the hex, or did you just see the buffing animation on the left side? I just played a game where he was polymorphed (which lead me to this thread), and after playing two Doom Callers he didn't show. My disappointment when I drew my last card...heartbreaking.
What game are you playing that you don't win after you play C'Thun? Use it as a finisher...
Does Deathrattle trigger when you play Polymorph or Hex on a minion?
It does not, and it's because the 'event' Death isn't implied in this sequence.
Same thing here, your C'thun never died, for the game. As emotional humans we could say that he kinda did, but it does not matter for an IA.
I feel like this interaction might see change after awhile. Doesn't seem right for 3 classes to have a significant counter to C'thun that destroys the use of another card a lot of people are running 2 of, making the effect literally useless because of a loop hole / argument in philosophy.
Half people say it's not C'thun that died, but a sheep. I'd tend to say that's incorrect. Regardless the form he's currently taking it's still C'thun. Just as Yogg'Saron and probably most gods have human appearances, like Nefarian, it is still very much Nefarian in there, he just LOOKS different. Regardless of the shape or form he is in, if C'thun was in the deck, and played, and then was removed from the field in any way requiring damage / killing, Doomcaller should activate. In fact knowing that it doesn't work that way, I may remove 1 Doomcaller from all of my C'thun decks, that's a pretty harsh punishment just for C'thun getting targeted by a removal spell from a specific class.
In my opinion the correct way to "code" Doomcaller would be to run a check if the deck originally contained C'thun, if it no longer has C'thun in the deck, hand, or on the field, then C'thun is returned to the deck.
The only possible card that is in such a grey area I think it could and perhaps should break Doomcallers effect is Mind Control / Entomb. Since then he literally never died (unless the MC'd C'thun did die). However something like that going for Priest, while it's already one of the best late game control decks (with mind control and entomb) that it might become blatantly overpowered in this slowed down control meta, especially with a large advantage over any C'thun deck that draws C'thun early enough to need to use it as not just a finisher, which tends to happen occasionally.
All in all I think Doomcaller's effect should definitely go off even after a polymorph or hex, but that Priest Mind Control and Entomb probably deserve to break that combo due to the wording of the cards, with the exception being if the Mind Controlled C'thun was then killed before the Doomcaller is played. If you were turned into a sheep and killed, would you like your whole family to remember you as "sheep"?
He didn't die, he was transformed. Why is that so hard to comprehend. This should absolutely not be changed.
This shouldn't be surprising. Transforming is not dying, never has been. Same reason Hex and Polymorph don't trigger Deathrattle.
If C'thun is transformed it is no loner C'thun. For the same reason Shifter Zerus stops being Shifter Zerus after he's been played.
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I've probably had 75% of the C'thuns I've managed to drop get hexed or poly'ed, was kind of annoyed by this interaction. I wasn't sure which way it was going to work out prior to it actually happening in game, but the animation kind of baited me, only to notice that my deck did not get an extra card after I played the Doomcaller.
IMO the difference between this and death rattle is that when any hexed or poly'd minion dies, its a sheep or frog. No deathrattle. However, in keeping with the CCG roots, the original card is going in the discard pile - the original minion is dead - and should be able to return if an effect calls for it. To make matters worse, that damn animation shows your C'thun - even if he isn't coming back - leading to confusion and disappointment.
Every class has access to a polymorph effect in the form of Tinkmaster Overspark.
Having counters to OP cards is important. If you don't want your C'thun Hexed, you might have to bait them out ahead of time by playing your first Doomcaller first. You don't get to cry foul just because someone makes it hard for you to pull off a C'thun miracle and play him up to three times.
In my opinion, C'Thun makes the game a whole lot less fun in a lot of ways, so I'm glad that there are absolute counters to it. I just wish every class had something they could do to it to ensure that it doesn't come back.
I do think that Tinkmaster is a viable option for non-mage/shaman, but you basically just lose if he misses and hits another minion unless you have some other hard counter.
To the point about C'Thun being killed as a sheep/frog, I think it would be apt that the Doomcaller would put a sheep or frog back into your deck if that was his last living form.