There, I've done it for you. Tech it if you hate it.
1. I dont hate it im playing freeze mage with it i just think it's too strong. 2. Eater of Secret's suck's compared to Kezan against freeze mages
I agree. Aggro shaman and freeze mage right now are the best deck's. Lack of lotheb and antic healbot will make them strongest archetypes.
i've got reno jackson uhhh, im about to heal.. when you think that im about to die...
How's reno going to help you if my plan is to OTK you with freeze mage? And aggro shaman can also OTK you if he expects you to have reno and he sets doomhammer up
paladin. Every. Single. Class. Card. Aldor, divine favour, 4/2 weapon, mysterious cocksucker, tirion, keeper of uldaman, all of them. Increase every paladin cards cost by 4 and then they'll be fair and balanced and fun to play against.
Nah if you play a high-value 2-attack minion into a Priest with 6 mana upcoming, then you pretty much deserve what you get.
You say this but the only reason you think that way is because of the card being what it is you're not thinking of, what could happen, just l2p noob and games should'nt be only about the meta it should be about having fun and this card remove fun.
It's like, you start with a normal answer and then have to go with the douche "l2p noob" and "tjis card remove fun".
Ignoring the insults, maybe this aspect is fun for me? does that mean that this card doesnt remove the fun aspect?
Also, priest is one of the least represented classes both constructed and arena (could be wrong), so i feel like they dont need to suffer any more penalties.
i didnt mean he should l2p his answer was just well if you play this you shoulda've known FYI and who cares how many people play it first of all and secondly its not really a nerf THAT much it is but not as bad and maybe JUST AMYBE they could print better card for priest since cabal could be nerf
This is a long post. If you do not have time to read the post in it's entirety, i recommend you do not post and move along. I do not intend to complain or call anybody out. I would just like to take this time to get what I'm thinking off my chest.
I say this, not as a player who is salty, but as a relatively successful, competitive CCG player for 12 years. I have seen high level competition and played against elite players of various games. I have quit games and stopped playing formats because of tremendous imbalances that favor 1 or 2 archetypes, and push out strategies that ought to be worthy of facing them. I will admit that Hearthstone is not a game that I am 100% knowledgeable about the meta, since I often disregard the meta when building decks and prefer to learn matchups and playstyles through intuition and careful study rather than netdecking and fanatical loyalty to top level tournament grinders' opinions (they are usually right, but I believe that learning the facts myself is possibly more valuable as you learn to think like them if they are right and have differences of opinion otherwise, thus creating progress in understanding of the game).
That being said I believe the nerf bat was unjust in this recent wave of nerfs. I agree with many of the choices, but I feel like others were out of the blue.
Cards that should have been nerfed:
Divine Favor(The single most stupid, blue-shell, win from behind card in the whole game and in arguably the game's most powerful class. There is only one way to play this card, and that is exactly the way that is most unfair out of all the things in the game. Punishes control for playing wisely and rewards a very irritating and unbalanced win condition. Personally, I have played with the card, and I have never seen so many games go from "there's no way, I'm so far behind" to "I win" as with this card. The argument that "it doesn't work well against face decks" is invalid as far as I am concerned. Big Game Hunter(pre-nerf) Doesn't work well against aggro/face either, Aggro decks are pretty much nonexistent now, so the card is going to be better. Draw effects are very dangerous if left unchecked and cards that reward players for playing other cards with other cards are usually among the most broken cards in any game. This is no different.)
Mountain Giant (Most decks can't remove it. It is the most broken card in handlock and hits on turn 4 far too often. BGH got a nerf, and this fella is allowed to roam free. The other bad thing about this is the fact that it serves little more than a speedbump in the grand scheme of the Handlock's plans, since they can just tap for more cards while any other class is endlessly chiseling away trying to get some advantage, but being simply swamped.)
Lay on Hands/Aldor Peacekeeper/Tirion (Paladin is the best class because of its curve. Secrets paladin might be getting a nerf with Eater, but the fact still remains that Paladin dominates in both arena and constructed, and has the potential to be a very unhealthy, unfair class with very little effort. I may be wrong on this, but I believe paladins have too many outs and too many bombs. It certainly shows when 3 different versions of the same deck are both dominant, despite fairly major differences.)
Doomhammer (This might change with the introduction of Whispers, but face shaman is still a thing for now. While I detest pushing any class out of competitive status, I do believe that Doomhammer+rockbiter weapon is roughly as unfair as Force+Roar, especially considering the fact that it only costs 7 mana with no discounts, and that it can be followed up with Bolt, Blast, or a crackle replacement. I have tested against the class, and the topdeck potential is superb. Hopefully a bump to 7 mana for the ol' Doomhammer would still make it powerful enough without pushing it out. Otherwise Tunnel Trogg is the main problem, but I would hate to make it Undertaker 2.0)
Northshire Cleric (It simply locks some classes out of the early game. The Priest will then capitalize on this with tempo efficient cards and a hefty suite of steal and remove effects. There are simply too many advantage sources and staying on the board is very difficult due to the vast suite of removal that the class has at its disposal. I do not believe that Priest is currently a healthy deck regardless of performance in high-level tournaments, owing to the simple mechanics of the deck being very difficult to counter in any capacity. It also seems to be the class that loses the least to rotation, meaning that the potential for it to be the next tier 0 deck is high.)
Savage Roar (the Druid card that is actually unfair. It only has one use and that is to turn a board full of minions into a game-winning board full of minions. That being said, I do not personally have a problem losing to this card, but in the interest of fairness and abiding by my own reason, this is not a card that should be left unchecked.)
Some of Zoolock (Don't get me wrong, Zoolock is an interesting and engaging deck and it does require a lot of skill, but I feel like the tools they are given are sometimes a little bit oppressive. Flame imp, Power Overwhelming and Void Terror are the big 3. The hero power has a lot to do with this, and I can't fathom a way for that to be changed!)
Cards that should not have been nerfed (or not as hard):
Force of Nature (removes a very flexible card that is useful for more than just OTKs. It is something of a board clear spell and does a mere 6 damage for 6 mana. Sure, there are ways to increase the damage output, but this, itself, is not unfair.)
Molten Giant (I think a Blizzard employee might have mistyped this one, I hope so. This is the one giant that I have never actually had an issue with.)
Ancient of Lore (it's a 7 mana 5/5 that draws 2 cards. Worse, slower Dr. Boom, and now it is half that.)
Keeper of the Grove (I don't understand why Druid was singled out in all of this. The way they hit it, you'd think the deck was the number 1 most powerful, most unfair deck ever, and as far as my research would go, 2 flavors of Paladin, freeze mage and the flavor of the month warrior are the top 4 decks, with Aggro druid barely making the top 5 and midrange[read: the deck most affected by the nerfs+rotation] even lower, tier 2 or below. It is a strong deck but it has very very bad games and matchups in my experience.)
Arcane Golem (No I don't like face decks, but they are important to the game.)
Cards(card) that should have been nerfed more:
Knife Juggler (3 mana, whatever stats. I rarely have reason to complain about juggler being a Bloodfen Raptor, I have a problem with Juggler,Juggler, Unleash the Hounds/Imp-losion etc. This will only serve to perpetuate knife juggler as an annoying board-clearing pinger and damage dealer.)
When these changes happen, there should be incidental changes to other classes to ensure that nothing is going to fill the power vacuum
Druid would then need to be nerfed, as would lock, if only slightly. Rogue was pretty spot on. Mage should see mana wyrm and apprentice get hit a little bit. I don't like counterspell or mirror image either, but I wouldn't say they are that unfair. Warrior should have an armor cap, and Priest needs to be bumped down a notch since there will no longer be OTKs to keep it in check.
I will give you the example of the recent changes to Magic:The Gathering Modern format as an example of poor judgment in format moderation creating a bad environment in the long run.
So there were 2 decks that were really really good for about a year. One was a long running deck called Splinter Twin. Splinter Twin was a problem because it was very flexible and consistent. Basically, for those of you unfamiliar with either magic or high-level modern, think a mage deck with a 2-card infinite combo that they can pull off on turn 4 to win the game. though the whole thing could be stopped with permission, this deck also ran permission and most cards were able to dodge most of the aspects that make combo unreliable. In addition to this, it was also a good control/tempo deck in a pinch and flexible enough to not need it's combo to win. The other deck that was very solid at this time was a combo deck that was admittedly very strong but typically needed to draw a certain card to win. It was less flexible, but could simply outpace most other decks and put down a very large creature very quickly. It could also win by a default combo between 2 cards with a similar mechanism.
Now since the Twin deck was so ubiquitous in tournaments, and while relatively easy to stop if you had the means and knew what to do, it was hit for simply damaging the format diversity. Only the combo was hit.
The other deck, Amulet Bloom was hit due to being Freeze Mage-y in that it didn't interact very much (in the traditional sense). Instead of drawing the game out, though, it tried to win the game as fast as possible. It had 2 combos that could do this with a very complex interaction revolving around 1 card. It is very difficult to play, making freeze mage look like face hunter in comparison but also incredibly powerful in the right hands.
Upon these cards being hit, WOTC and the community were pretty satisfied. "Hooray" they said for no more cheesy combos would kill them. Modern would be so diverse now!
But in reality this set the stage for one of the most atrocious formats in history.
In MTG terms, "[Noun] Winter" is a term that denotes a particular format dominating strategy that pushes out all other formats. There have been a few that are widely regarded as canon among MTG players. Combo Winter 1&2, Black Summer,and honorable mentions to Lorwyn's UB faeries, the Caw-Blade format, and Khans of Tarkir's Extended Delve madness (which saw multi-format banning of 2 seemingly innocuous blue draw spells). These were pretty insane but not truly format breaking.
Enter the Old-God-esque Eldrazi and their colorless reality bending madness. In the past there had been eldrazi but none like these. These were cheap and very concentrated, and by the time the first Pro tour of the new format rolled around, they were ready.
Whereas there was a balance between decks before, with a diverse format where players played everything from Aggressive face-style burn decks to deep greedy control decks that would win well past the 40 turn mark, now there were 2 fundamental decks.
The first was Eldrazi. Uncontested by combo and the 2 combo decks in the modern format, it comprised more than 75% of the metagame and at this very event, swept the podium. It could generate 4 mana on turn 2, with a turn 1 land that made eldrazi cost 2 less (Eye of Ugin). Since several of these critters only cost 2 mana, this card was, of course, broken. it could also search the deck for creatures for 7 mana. Now magic has no limit to how much mana you can have so this card was insane. It carried the early game with extremely fast development and grinded out the opponent into the late game with big, fat, efficient, and disruptive creatures and color-hosing spells.
The other decks were colorless Affinity: an aggro deck with the burst potential of shaman combined with the affinity of mechs and a light permission package (counterspells). Since other decks were easily color hosed (as in their lands now only produce Red mana) by some eldrazi lists, a colorless deck, and a fast one at that, was the only deck that could come close to beating them.
Enter the newest "Winter"; Eldrazi Winter. This was especially impressive because Modern Magic uses cards from nearly 13 Years of sets. First on the chopping block for this season's bans? The Eldrazi, and their broken Eye of Ugin of course.
I worry for the future of Hearthstone given the seemingly ill-informed nerfs just announced and seeming failure to recognize a potential for one class or archetype to completely dominate the metagame (think Warrior/Priest/Paladin). The obliteration of Druid feels so much like the removal of blue-red/Jeskai Twin that I fear for the format to come.
So that's all I have to say. This is my opinion so I encourage constructive criticism, but please refrain from calling me something unsavory simply because you disagree with me. If there is anything you would like to add, please do.
I totally agree with you on Divine Favor. It's the single most broken card in the game. I personally hate it.
A possible reason in that Force of nature was nerfed and not savage roar, is that one could easily trade out Savage Roar with Power of the wild, and get a 12 damage combo, with zero minions on the board, for 8 mana. Now you have to use your other removals to trade.
I don't think Northshire Clerick need a nerf. It's a strong 1-drop minion like Tunnel trogg or Manawyrm, and priest who is loosing lightbomb and Velen's chosen ( and deathlord) will suffer a lot.
Blade flurry was nerfed to much. It should be the same cost, but should be able to only damage minions, not face. Rogue doesn't have a decent board clear anymore.
I have never played Keeper of the grove for its body. It has been strickly used to keep a 2 health minion or silence something. Will still see play.
As for Molten Giants and Ancient of Lore is that Blizzard doesn't want cards that are used in every single deck. Molten Giant was a constant threath in Renolock, and Handlock and was often comboed with, hence Reno or Defender of argus. Ancient of Lore did always occupy two spots in every druid deck. Blizzard wants us to experiment more with other cards (I personally don't think it will happen, but I undersand their point).
I also agree with you on Arcane Golem, didn't see a problem with it, but there are different charge options that will be used in aggro decks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everything that isn't about elephants is irrelephant.
Mountain giant could've used a one mana nerf, minor but still decent. Molten is just blizzard being so out of touch with how the game is, it only effects handlock not many other decks use the card and they certainly don't even consider it now. But they don't give a shit that molten being nerfed means every handlock card should be full DE price, they're greedy. a 2 mana increase would've been fine, but the change to mountain would've put handlock into a slower pace without touching moltens.
They are course correcting for handlock taking over the meta after all the aggro decks are gone but they haven't noticed the aggro problem isn't fixed! they are so delusional making a change that warsong commander's the card before seeing if it'll even become a problem. Too many decks have burst damage that can deal around 5 damage staying on that health is suicide and healbot just cycled, how does handlock come back from going down to 5 "which is basically the same as 10" in the minds of blizz-tards? Unless you 1/30 jarraxus on turn 9/10 (or coin 8) and drop both moltens with him its not worth running the two cards, they are far too risky now, in a deck that was already risky to play (people could play around it, i've done it many times its an easy win on a mid range hunter)
I do think keeper was nerfed too far, there is a 4/3 for 4 that silences i think just take the option of 2 damage away from it, or make it a 2/3 but they just went full retard. And now that hearthstone is just Magic the gathering 4.0? the non nonsensical balance issues from people who barely spend time playing the game will keep throwing stuff up in the air. Another option would be to swap classic cards for gnome cards, shift something from gnomes into the classic set and put molten into gnomes, ping-pong done.
I feel like my entire handlock deck is now dead cards i can't get full cost for.. yay! (and i agree with most of what above said about the other non nerfed cards)
I totally agree with you on Divine Favor. It's the single most broken card in the game. I personally hate it.
A possible reason in that Force of nature was nerfed and not savage roar, is that one could easily trade out Savage Roar with Power of the wild, and get a 12 damage combo, with zero minions on the board, for 8 mana. Now you have to use your other removals to trade.
I don't think Northshire Clerick need a nerf. It's a strong 1-drop minion like Tunnel trogg or Manawyrm, and priest who is loosing lightbomb and Velen's chosen ( and deathlord) will suffer a lot.
Blade flurry was nerfed to much. It should be the same cost, but should be able to only damage minions, not face. Rogue doesn't have a decent board clear anymore.
I have never played Keeper of the grove for its body. It has been strickly used to keep a 2 health minion or silence something. Will still see play.
As for Molten Giants and Ancient of Lore is that Blizzard doesn't want cards that are used in every single deck. Molten Giant was a constant threath in Renolock, and Handlock and was often comboed with, hence Reno or Defender of argus. Ancient of Lore did always occupy two spots in every druid deck. Blizzard wants us to experiment more with other cards (I personally don't think it will happen, but I undersand their point).
I also agree with you on Arcane Golem, didn't see a problem with it, but there are different charge options that will be used in aggro decks.
Also good points. I see your point with Force, even though I personally didn't really have a problem with it. Druid feels like one of the few classes that I don't have a grievance with, hence why I decided to pick it up a little while ago.
As for Northshire, I really don't like how it forces you to play off curve to deal with it. I always end up having to skip my 1 and 2 drop on the draw and my 2 drop on the play. 3 is difficult to beat over unless you have a very specific type of minion, and while I do agree that the class is losing some strong cards with rotation, the potential is there for it to be pretty overbearing still. It just won't be quite as fast to set up a wall.
That being said, thank you for your post! I certainly want to learn what I can and make the best of the new format!
Ive literally seen people asking for nerfs on ANYTHING. If blizzard one day decides to pay attention to all these complain threads and starts actually nerfing all the cards this community suggest, we are going to play with only wisps. And even then someone would say wisp is op. Im not even kiddin
No. You literally haven't. I realise the dictionary definition of 'literally' has now changed to be 'not literally' (for some reason, but that's an aside!). Hemet Nesingwary.
Some cards are great. Once you lose to them a few times we all feel the need to bitch about them and want them nerfed. That's the nature of card games IMO.
It's like, you start with a normal answer and then have to go with the douche "l2p noob" and "tjis card remove fun".
Ignoring the insults, maybe this aspect is fun for me? does that mean that this card doesnt remove the fun aspect?
Also, priest is one of the least represented classes both constructed and arena (could be wrong), so i feel like they dont need to suffer any more penalties.
i didnt mean he should l2p his answer was just well if you play this you shoulda've known FYI and who cares how many people play it first of all and secondly its not really a nerf THAT much it is but not as bad and maybe JUST AMYBE they could print better card for priest since cabal could be nerf
Another option would be to swap classic cards for gnome cards, shift something from gnomes into the classic set and put molten into gnomes, ping-pong done.
You know, I felt like that should have been considered with some cards. There should be a couple cards that made it into the classic set, if to be crafted only. Stuff like Annoy-o-Tron and Healbot that is not really broken but is pretty fun.
Also I am sorry you handlock players got the shaft. I don't think that the deck is unfair, as save for a few very potent plays, it generally plays a very thought out and gradual game. I'm sure a slight nerf of maybe 1 extra mana to mountain giant and leaving Molten alone would have been welcome. I can somewhat relate, playing Druid as one of my main classes, but that actually makes more sense tbh.
Cabal is retarded and needs nerf, Mind Control tech is absurd, Shielded MInibot needs nerf, so does mad scientist, it really is ridiculous how many OP cards are still out there.
Half of those cards are being rotated out...
Rotated out? I will still have to deal with those cards in wild, and Since Ironbeak got nerfed, There is actually NO way at all to evenly trade with those cards on 2 Mana.
I like getting a new perspective, especially such an informed one, on card game balances. I do think that Magic had/has a lot more ways that games can steam roll out of control more easily than Hearthstone does. I say that now, but WILD will be a format where there will be some turn 3 kills because of nonsense, but i don't think I will be playing much wild
Anyways, in terms of the nerfs, I am more aligned with the thought that some cards are allowed to be better than others. Like how class cards can be better than non-class cards. So when they took a card that was good card and they murder it, that is when i have a problem. The best example of this is Ancient of Lore which is an epic card, so one would have to invest the 400 dust get get this dude. Now, its a 7 mana 5/5 draw a card or gain 5 health. I know its the versatility that they believe is more valuable than its individual stats but comparing one ability to others like it is bad both times. Guardian of Kings 6 mana 5/6 gain 6 health.... Basic set....now Azure Drake stats Way better for that cost AND you get spell power... ya.. they killed this card
Alexstrasza. Aside from Mad Scientist leaving standard, Freeze Mages are going to be in good shape.
Agree. And it seems crazy that Archmage Antonidas and Tirion Fordring are intact. Both of them provide a win condition for <=8 mana. I can't imagine playing mage or pally without them. Or at least feeling good about it...
Surprisingly enough, Magic is both outrageously out of control and constantly being reigned in. The limitations of the land-mana system has alot to do with keeping things in check, but it also really makes things that can circumvent these restrictions that much more insane. Anybody who has seen Vintage anything or Legacy Storm can tell you how nuts the cards that enable extra mana for free are!
Good point about Azure Drake too, didn't even make the comparison. Counting spell damage as 1 point of atk (that seems to be the balance a la Thalnos vs. loot hoarder) you are still losing mana, If anything Azure Drake is probably one of the most perfect cards in the game, and I thought Ancient was as well!
I'm okay with all cards, i think Ancient of Lore is balaced and doesnt need nerf, so as other nerfed cards. The only 2 card I'm not okay with is Divine Favor and Nozdormu. The first one is ridiculos, you can throw all your hand, being aoed and still win the game just because of this card, it's not cool. I'm okay with aggro decks, but lack of car draw is exactly what make it balanced. And the effect of second one is just stupid and unfun, it's impossible to make the best play out of all option you have only for 15 seconds, not even dimension it's broken and bugged
after reading your entire post which could be much shorter I have to say there is a reason they have people they pay to balance cards and there is a reason why you don't work for them. The olny thing I don't like and agree is that they need to change doomhammer and do something about freeze mage.
Wasted money, which I don't think I'll give them anymore.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
I totally agree with you on Divine Favor. It's the single most broken card in the game. I personally hate it.
A possible reason in that Force of nature was nerfed and not savage roar, is that one could easily trade out Savage Roar with Power of the wild, and get a 12 damage combo, with zero minions on the board, for 8 mana. Now you have to use your other removals to trade.
I don't think Northshire Clerick need a nerf. It's a strong 1-drop minion like Tunnel trogg or Manawyrm, and priest who is loosing lightbomb and Velen's chosen ( and deathlord) will suffer a lot.
Blade flurry was nerfed to much. It should be the same cost, but should be able to only damage minions, not face. Rogue doesn't have a decent board clear anymore.
I have never played Keeper of the grove for its body. It has been strickly used to keep a 2 health minion or silence something. Will still see play.
As for Molten Giants and Ancient of Lore is that Blizzard doesn't want cards that are used in every single deck. Molten Giant was a constant threath in Renolock, and Handlock and was often comboed with, hence Reno or Defender of argus. Ancient of Lore did always occupy two spots in every druid deck. Blizzard wants us to experiment more with other cards (I personally don't think it will happen, but I undersand their point).
I also agree with you on Arcane Golem, didn't see a problem with it, but there are different charge options that will be used in aggro decks.
Actually FoN + Power of the wild would be 9 damage for 8 mana that can't go through taunts. That's underwhelming.
My concern in OP thoughts on the nerfs is that it only talks about wild : the nerfs are meant to be for Standard. Why would you nerf paladin in standard ? Guess what, paladin wasn't played at all before GvG, now that it's gone, Paladin will be forced into controlly decks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I used to be a control player like you, then I took a quick shot to the knee.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
paladin. Every. Single. Class. Card. Aldor, divine favour, 4/2 weapon, mysterious cocksucker, tirion, keeper of uldaman, all of them. Increase every paladin cards cost by 4 and then they'll be fair and balanced and fun to play against.
Divine Favor already... i have 5 x normal and 2 golden waiting for the nerf...
Divine Favor
Feelsbadman
[]D [] []V[] []D
This is a long post. If you do not have time to read the post in it's entirety, i recommend you do not post and move along. I do not intend to complain or call anybody out. I would just like to take this time to get what I'm thinking off my chest.
I say this, not as a player who is salty, but as a relatively successful, competitive CCG player for 12 years. I have seen high level competition and played against elite players of various games. I have quit games and stopped playing formats because of tremendous imbalances that favor 1 or 2 archetypes, and push out strategies that ought to be worthy of facing them. I will admit that Hearthstone is not a game that I am 100% knowledgeable about the meta, since I often disregard the meta when building decks and prefer to learn matchups and playstyles through intuition and careful study rather than netdecking and fanatical loyalty to top level tournament grinders' opinions (they are usually right, but I believe that learning the facts myself is possibly more valuable as you learn to think like them if they are right and have differences of opinion otherwise, thus creating progress in understanding of the game).
That being said I believe the nerf bat was unjust in this recent wave of nerfs. I agree with many of the choices, but I feel like others were out of the blue.
Cards that should have been nerfed:
Divine Favor(The single most stupid, blue-shell, win from behind card in the whole game and in arguably the game's most powerful class. There is only one way to play this card, and that is exactly the way that is most unfair out of all the things in the game. Punishes control for playing wisely and rewards a very irritating and unbalanced win condition. Personally, I have played with the card, and I have never seen so many games go from "there's no way, I'm so far behind" to "I win" as with this card. The argument that "it doesn't work well against face decks" is invalid as far as I am concerned. Big Game Hunter(pre-nerf) Doesn't work well against aggro/face either, Aggro decks are pretty much nonexistent now, so the card is going to be better. Draw effects are very dangerous if left unchecked and cards that reward players for playing other cards with other cards are usually among the most broken cards in any game. This is no different.)
Mountain Giant (Most decks can't remove it. It is the most broken card in handlock and hits on turn 4 far too often. BGH got a nerf, and this fella is allowed to roam free. The other bad thing about this is the fact that it serves little more than a speedbump in the grand scheme of the Handlock's plans, since they can just tap for more cards while any other class is endlessly chiseling away trying to get some advantage, but being simply swamped.)
Lay on Hands/Aldor Peacekeeper/Tirion (Paladin is the best class because of its curve. Secrets paladin might be getting a nerf with Eater, but the fact still remains that Paladin dominates in both arena and constructed, and has the potential to be a very unhealthy, unfair class with very little effort. I may be wrong on this, but I believe paladins have too many outs and too many bombs. It certainly shows when 3 different versions of the same deck are both dominant, despite fairly major differences.)
Doomhammer (This might change with the introduction of Whispers, but face shaman is still a thing for now. While I detest pushing any class out of competitive status, I do believe that Doomhammer+rockbiter weapon is roughly as unfair as Force+Roar, especially considering the fact that it only costs 7 mana with no discounts, and that it can be followed up with Bolt, Blast, or a crackle replacement. I have tested against the class, and the topdeck potential is superb. Hopefully a bump to 7 mana for the ol' Doomhammer would still make it powerful enough without pushing it out. Otherwise Tunnel Trogg is the main problem, but I would hate to make it Undertaker 2.0)
Northshire Cleric (It simply locks some classes out of the early game. The Priest will then capitalize on this with tempo efficient cards and a hefty suite of steal and remove effects. There are simply too many advantage sources and staying on the board is very difficult due to the vast suite of removal that the class has at its disposal. I do not believe that Priest is currently a healthy deck regardless of performance in high-level tournaments, owing to the simple mechanics of the deck being very difficult to counter in any capacity. It also seems to be the class that loses the least to rotation, meaning that the potential for it to be the next tier 0 deck is high.)
Savage Roar (the Druid card that is actually unfair. It only has one use and that is to turn a board full of minions into a game-winning board full of minions. That being said, I do not personally have a problem losing to this card, but in the interest of fairness and abiding by my own reason, this is not a card that should be left unchecked.)
Some of Zoolock (Don't get me wrong, Zoolock is an interesting and engaging deck and it does require a lot of skill, but I feel like the tools they are given are sometimes a little bit oppressive. Flame imp, Power Overwhelming and Void Terror are the big 3. The hero power has a lot to do with this, and I can't fathom a way for that to be changed!)
Cards that should not have been nerfed (or not as hard):
Force of Nature (removes a very flexible card that is useful for more than just OTKs. It is something of a board clear spell and does a mere 6 damage for 6 mana. Sure, there are ways to increase the damage output, but this, itself, is not unfair.)
Molten Giant (I think a Blizzard employee might have mistyped this one, I hope so. This is the one giant that I have never actually had an issue with.)
Ancient of Lore (it's a 7 mana 5/5 that draws 2 cards. Worse, slower Dr. Boom, and now it is half that.)
Keeper of the Grove (I don't understand why Druid was singled out in all of this. The way they hit it, you'd think the deck was the number 1 most powerful, most unfair deck ever, and as far as my research would go, 2 flavors of Paladin, freeze mage and the flavor of the month warrior are the top 4 decks, with Aggro druid barely making the top 5 and midrange[read: the deck most affected by the nerfs+rotation] even lower, tier 2 or below. It is a strong deck but it has very very bad games and matchups in my experience.)
Arcane Golem (No I don't like face decks, but they are important to the game.)
Cards(card) that should have been nerfed more:
Knife Juggler (3 mana, whatever stats. I rarely have reason to complain about juggler being a Bloodfen Raptor, I have a problem with Juggler,Juggler, Unleash the Hounds/Imp-losion etc. This will only serve to perpetuate knife juggler as an annoying board-clearing pinger and damage dealer.)
When these changes happen, there should be incidental changes to other classes to ensure that nothing is going to fill the power vacuum
Druid would then need to be nerfed, as would lock, if only slightly. Rogue was pretty spot on. Mage should see mana wyrm and apprentice get hit a little bit. I don't like counterspell or mirror image either, but I wouldn't say they are that unfair. Warrior should have an armor cap, and Priest needs to be bumped down a notch since there will no longer be OTKs to keep it in check.
I will give you the example of the recent changes to Magic:The Gathering Modern format as an example of poor judgment in format moderation creating a bad environment in the long run.
So there were 2 decks that were really really good for about a year. One was a long running deck called Splinter Twin. Splinter Twin was a problem because it was very flexible and consistent. Basically, for those of you unfamiliar with either magic or high-level modern, think a mage deck with a 2-card infinite combo that they can pull off on turn 4 to win the game. though the whole thing could be stopped with permission, this deck also ran permission and most cards were able to dodge most of the aspects that make combo unreliable. In addition to this, it was also a good control/tempo deck in a pinch and flexible enough to not need it's combo to win. The other deck that was very solid at this time was a combo deck that was admittedly very strong but typically needed to draw a certain card to win. It was less flexible, but could simply outpace most other decks and put down a very large creature very quickly. It could also win by a default combo between 2 cards with a similar mechanism.
Now since the Twin deck was so ubiquitous in tournaments, and while relatively easy to stop if you had the means and knew what to do, it was hit for simply damaging the format diversity. Only the combo was hit.
The other deck, Amulet Bloom was hit due to being Freeze Mage-y in that it didn't interact very much (in the traditional sense). Instead of drawing the game out, though, it tried to win the game as fast as possible. It had 2 combos that could do this with a very complex interaction revolving around 1 card. It is very difficult to play, making freeze mage look like face hunter in comparison but also incredibly powerful in the right hands.
Upon these cards being hit, WOTC and the community were pretty satisfied. "Hooray" they said for no more cheesy combos would kill them. Modern would be so diverse now!
But in reality this set the stage for one of the most atrocious formats in history.
In MTG terms, "[Noun] Winter" is a term that denotes a particular format dominating strategy that pushes out all other formats. There have been a few that are widely regarded as canon among MTG players. Combo Winter 1&2, Black Summer,and honorable mentions to Lorwyn's UB faeries, the Caw-Blade format, and Khans of Tarkir's Extended Delve madness (which saw multi-format banning of 2 seemingly innocuous blue draw spells). These were pretty insane but not truly format breaking.
Enter the Old-God-esque Eldrazi and their colorless reality bending madness. In the past there had been eldrazi but none like these. These were cheap and very concentrated, and by the time the first Pro tour of the new format rolled around, they were ready.
Whereas there was a balance between decks before, with a diverse format where players played everything from Aggressive face-style burn decks to deep greedy control decks that would win well past the 40 turn mark, now there were 2 fundamental decks.
The first was Eldrazi. Uncontested by combo and the 2 combo decks in the modern format, it comprised more than 75% of the metagame and at this very event, swept the podium. It could generate 4 mana on turn 2, with a turn 1 land that made eldrazi cost 2 less (Eye of Ugin). Since several of these critters only cost 2 mana, this card was, of course, broken. it could also search the deck for creatures for 7 mana. Now magic has no limit to how much mana you can have so this card was insane. It carried the early game with extremely fast development and grinded out the opponent into the late game with big, fat, efficient, and disruptive creatures and color-hosing spells.
The other decks were colorless Affinity: an aggro deck with the burst potential of shaman combined with the affinity of mechs and a light permission package (counterspells). Since other decks were easily color hosed (as in their lands now only produce Red mana) by some eldrazi lists, a colorless deck, and a fast one at that, was the only deck that could come close to beating them.
Enter the newest "Winter"; Eldrazi Winter. This was especially impressive because Modern Magic uses cards from nearly 13 Years of sets. First on the chopping block for this season's bans? The Eldrazi, and their broken Eye of Ugin of course.
I worry for the future of Hearthstone given the seemingly ill-informed nerfs just announced and seeming failure to recognize a potential for one class or archetype to completely dominate the metagame (think Warrior/Priest/Paladin). The obliteration of Druid feels so much like the removal of blue-red/Jeskai Twin that I fear for the format to come.
So that's all I have to say. This is my opinion so I encourage constructive criticism, but please refrain from calling me something unsavory simply because you disagree with me. If there is anything you would like to add, please do.
Mostly Harmless
I totally agree with you on Divine Favor. It's the single most broken card in the game. I personally hate it.
A possible reason in that Force of nature was nerfed and not savage roar, is that one could easily trade out Savage Roar with Power of the wild, and get a 12 damage combo, with zero minions on the board, for 8 mana. Now you have to use your other removals to trade.
I don't think Northshire Clerick need a nerf. It's a strong 1-drop minion like Tunnel trogg or Manawyrm, and priest who is loosing lightbomb and Velen's chosen ( and deathlord) will suffer a lot.
Blade flurry was nerfed to much. It should be the same cost, but should be able to only damage minions, not face. Rogue doesn't have a decent board clear anymore.
I have never played Keeper of the grove for its body. It has been strickly used to keep a 2 health minion or silence something. Will still see play.
As for Molten Giants and Ancient of Lore is that Blizzard doesn't want cards that are used in every single deck. Molten Giant was a constant threath in Renolock, and Handlock and was often comboed with, hence Reno or Defender of argus. Ancient of Lore did always occupy two spots in every druid deck. Blizzard wants us to experiment more with other cards (I personally don't think it will happen, but I undersand their point).
I also agree with you on Arcane Golem, didn't see a problem with it, but there are different charge options that will be used in aggro decks.
Everything that isn't about elephants is irrelephant.
Mountain giant could've used a one mana nerf, minor but still decent.
Molten is just blizzard being so out of touch with how the game is, it only effects handlock not many other decks use the card and they certainly don't even consider it now.
But they don't give a shit that molten being nerfed means every handlock card should be full DE price, they're greedy.
a 2 mana increase would've been fine, but the change to mountain would've put handlock into a slower pace without touching moltens.
They are course correcting for handlock taking over the meta after all the aggro decks are gone but they haven't noticed the aggro problem isn't fixed! they are so delusional making a change that warsong commander's the card before seeing if it'll even become a problem.
Too many decks have burst damage that can deal around 5 damage staying on that health is suicide and healbot just cycled, how does handlock come back from going down to 5 "which is basically the same as 10" in the minds of blizz-tards?
Unless you 1/30 jarraxus on turn 9/10 (or coin 8) and drop both moltens with him its not worth running the two cards, they are far too risky now, in a deck that was already risky to play (people could play around it, i've done it many times its an easy win on a mid range hunter)
I do think keeper was nerfed too far, there is a 4/3 for 4 that silences i think just take the option of 2 damage away from it, or make it a 2/3 but they just went full retard.
And now that hearthstone is just Magic the gathering 4.0? the non nonsensical balance issues from people who barely spend time playing the game will keep throwing stuff up in the air.
Another option would be to swap classic cards for gnome cards, shift something from gnomes into the classic set and put molten into gnomes, ping-pong done.
I feel like my entire handlock deck is now dead cards i can't get full cost for.. yay!
(and i agree with most of what above said about the other non nerfed cards)
Mostly Harmless
Mostly Harmless
Mostly Harmless
Alexstrasza. Aside from Mad Scientist leaving standard, Freeze Mages are going to be in good shape.
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 / Gigabyte GTX 1050-Ti / G.SKILL F4 DDR4 3600 C16 2x8GB / Crucial MX500 2TB / WD Blue 1TB (2010)
Add me on some other sites; I want friends.
Anilist | RateYourMusic | Steam
I like getting a new perspective, especially such an informed one, on card game balances. I do think that Magic had/has a lot more ways that games can steam roll out of control more easily than Hearthstone does. I say that now, but WILD will be a format where there will be some turn 3 kills because of nonsense, but i don't think I will be playing much wild
Anyways, in terms of the nerfs, I am more aligned with the thought that some cards are allowed to be better than others. Like how class cards can be better than non-class cards. So when they took a card that was good card and they murder it, that is when i have a problem. The best example of this is Ancient of Lore which is an epic card, so one would have to invest the 400 dust get get this dude. Now, its a 7 mana 5/5 draw a card or gain 5 health. I know its the versatility that they believe is more valuable than its individual stats but comparing one ability to others like it is bad both times. Guardian of Kings 6 mana 5/6 gain 6 health.... Basic set....now Azure Drake stats Way better for that cost AND you get spell power... ya.. they killed this card
THIS WILD DECK IS AWESOME!!!!
Surprisingly enough, Magic is both outrageously out of control and constantly being reigned in. The limitations of the land-mana system has alot to do with keeping things in check, but it also really makes things that can circumvent these restrictions that much more insane. Anybody who has seen Vintage anything or Legacy Storm can tell you how nuts the cards that enable extra mana for free are!
Good point about Azure Drake too, didn't even make the comparison. Counting spell damage as 1 point of atk (that seems to be the balance a la Thalnos vs. loot hoarder) you are still losing mana, If anything Azure Drake is probably one of the most perfect cards in the game, and I thought Ancient was as well!
Mostly Harmless
I'm okay with all cards, i think Ancient of Lore is balaced and doesnt need nerf, so as other nerfed cards. The only 2 card I'm not okay with is Divine Favor and Nozdormu. The first one is ridiculos, you can throw all your hand, being aoed and still win the game just because of this card, it's not cool. I'm okay with aggro decks, but lack of car draw is exactly what make it balanced. And the effect of second one is just stupid and unfun, it's impossible to make the best play out of all option you have only for 15 seconds, not even dimension it's broken and bugged
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
I used to be a control player like you, then I took a quick shot to the knee.