and nothing changed. Except that decks running BGH lose early tempo.
What changed is how many decks will run it in the future. a 3 mana 4/2 isn't that bad of a card against decks that don't run big minions so a lot of decks could afford to run it, but with it at 5 mana it makes you reconsider if you want to run BGH at all over different removal.
While I think other nerfs might be better, I believe this change will have the desired effect that Blizzard was looking for (which is to see BGH as more of a tech card).
and nothing changed. Except that decks running BGH lose early tempo.
What changed is how many decks will run it in the future. a 3 mana 4/2 isn't that bad of a card against decks that don't run big minions so a lot of decks could afford to run it, but with it at 5 mana it makes you reconsider if you want to run BGH at all over different removal.
While I think other nerfs might be better, I believe this change will have the desired effect that Blizzard was looking for (which is to see BGH as more of a tech card).
The only thing that changed is nothing.
I wish it was made WORSE against 7+ attack minions, which was the problem with the card -- not it's tempo versus aggro.
GOOD nerf: Making it worse against 7+ attack minions
BAD nerf: Making it worse against dekcs NOT running any 7+ attack minions.
I don't want people to stop running BGH because it sucks against decks that do not have 7+ attack minions... I want to run 7+ attack minions knowing that I'm not completely at the mercy of my opponent not running a card that gives him a 9.5 mana board advantage if I play a 7+ attack minion.
This nerf is like a sex offender ordered by the court, not to stop harassing his victim, but staying 1 mile away from the beach where he raped her -- completely disregarding the actual problem being the interaction between him and his target.
Problem: It kills 7 cost attack minions. That was, is and always was the literal problem with this card. Not that it killed 7+ attack minions, but that the tempo advantage was 11 mana for killing a 7 cost minion. Well. 9 mana board advantage is still gamebreaking, and the solution for any deck that doesn't run cards that generate obscene tempo advantage is STILL to never run any BGH targets.
Ironically, if BGH no longer sees play, it's not because it's not good enough, it's that 7+ attack minions aren't played enough to warrant his use -- which STILL is a loss for 7+ attack minions and people who like playing high cost cards and the control game.
As dumb as it sounds, I usually run BGH in joust decks making it a buff for that style of deck. Joust paladins and shaman rejoice. Other wise great nerfs for all purpose decks.
If you think nothing will change then you don't understand how big of a nerf 3 to 5 mana is. With it at 5 mana there are a lot of classes with better general removal that they would likely run over BGH that they would never have considered running before, which means that BGH will see a lot less play. Sure, you'll get hit by it every now and then, but the tempo swing won't be much higher than what most classes can do with more general class based removals anyway.
If you think nothing will change then you don't understand how big of a nerf 3 to 5 mana is. With it at 5 mana there are a lot of classes with better general removal that they would likely run over BGH that they would never have considered running before, which means that BGH will see a lot less play. Sure, you'll get hit by it every now and then, but the tempo swing won't be much higher than what most classes can do with more general class based removals anyway.
Four words:
Card Advantage + Tempo Advantage
BGH is 1+ card advantage bundled with tempo advantage.
IF used on a card your opponent blessed with Blessing of Kings or another buff, it's 2 card advantage.
IF used on a card with a total value, base value or base value + buff value, of 7 mana: -7 mana worth of bodies for the opponent, body worth 2.5 mana on your side, paid with 5 mana: 4.5 tempo advantage for killing the enemy minion worth 7 mana.
In control decks with decent enough draw, you never HAVE to play him, and as a 1 of... that's a 2 mana opportunity cost of having him among your drawn cards in games where you never play him AND paid for card draw to get cards you needed because you had BGH in your hand but didn't need him.
IF you value BGH's body at 3 mana, or 2.5 mana, playing Blessing of Kings on an enemy 7 cost minion to take it to 7 attack and killing it with BGH is STILL cost efficient; It's a 7 mana for 7 mana, 1 for 1, trade: Your blessing of kings for his 7+ value minion. You pay 9 mana for BGH and taking out his 7 cost minion, and keep BGH's 2.5-3 mana body. You profited 0.5 to 1 mana depending on how you value BGH's body. Even if you only value BGH's body as a 2 cost, Blessing of Kings + BGH on an enemy 7 cost minion is still neutral.
It's not a combo, and there's better ways to make a minion a BGH target, but... the fact that it's actually cost NEUTRAL to cast Blessing of Kings and then BGH-ing it -- AFTER the nerf...
He still got the fun in his sights, and the only way he's not going to see play is if continued existence bullies 7+ attack minions to never go outside in the first place; Which is why I said; Nothing has changed.
He's still a testament to Blizzard's questionable balancing, which seriously contradicts their initial game philosophy for Hearthstone as a game where players trade minions ON THE BOARD for board advantage. Which was exactly what I wanted from the game, and the reason why non-combo Druid is my favorite class.
I still think we should have a card like bgh in the game, because sometimes you have no way to come back if they put down a 7 attack minion. This nerf makes it a lot more balanced, the situations where a gready deck is punished for playing so little... this card is there. In the future I hope we get more class specific removal so we can move away from this neutral minion.
If you think nothing will change then you don't understand how big of a nerf 3 to 5 mana is. With it at 5 mana there are a lot of classes with better general removal that they would likely run over BGH that they would never have considered running before, which means that BGH will see a lot less play. Sure, you'll get hit by it every now and then, but the tempo swing won't be much higher than what most classes can do with more general class based removals anyway.
Four words:
Card Advantage + Tempo Advantage
BGH is 1+ card advantage bundled with tempo advantage.
A lot of decks don't care as much about tempo or card advantage as they do about flexibility, so those alone won't make BGH a staple for many decks. If what you said is correct then Priest would have run him over shadow word: death every day of the week, but they didn't because tempo and card advantage weren't as important as flexibility. You will see other decks making that same choice soon enough.
For example: Is BGH really THAT much better than assassinate for a rogue? I don't think so. Not unless you are running tempo rogue, and in that instance you are looking to push for lethal about the time someone plays a 7 atk minion anyway so BGH wouldn't be all that good at for that style of deck anyway.
Kezan Mystic gave you card advantage and tempo advantage too, but that doesn't mean that it was an unbalanced card. Kezan mystic was a tech card (like BGH will likely be) where it is not likely to be an auto include and will see a lot of play when the format is really heavy with the type of deck that it counters, and will see basically no play in metas where it is light on decks that it counters. (There are several other examples of this such as The Black Knight and Mind Control Tech)
If you think nothing will change then you don't understand how big of a nerf 3 to 5 mana is. With it at 5 mana there are a lot of classes with better general removal that they would likely run over BGH that they would never have considered running before, which means that BGH will see a lot less play. Sure, you'll get hit by it every now and then, but the tempo swing won't be much higher than what most classes can do with more general class based removals anyway.
Four words:
Card Advantage + Tempo Advantage
BGH is 1+ card advantage bundled with tempo advantage.
A lot of decks don't care as much about tempo or card advantage as they do about flexibility, so those alone won't make BGH a staple for many decks. If what you said is correct then Priest would have run him over shadow word: death every day of the week, but they didn't because tempo and card advantage weren't as important as flexibility. You will see other decks making that same choice soon enough.
For example: Is BGH really THAT much better than assassinate for a rogue? I don't think so. Not unless you are running tempo rogue, and in that instance you are looking to push for lethal about the time someone plays a 7 atk minion anyway so BGH wouldn't be all that good at for that style of deck anyway.
Kezan Mystic gave you card advantage and tempo advantage too, but that doesn't mean that it was an unbalanced card. Kezan mystic was a tech card (like BGH will likely be) where it is not likely to be an auto include and will see a lot of play when the format is really heavy with the type of deck that it counters, and will see basically no play in metas where it is light on decks that it counters. (There are several other examples of this such as The Black Knight and Mind Control Tech)
Yes. BGH is that much better than Assassinate for rogue.
Vanilla BGH: You kill a 7+ attack minion for 5 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Tempo and card advantage, preventing 7+ points of damage being dealt to your board
BGH + Abusive: You kill a 5+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 and 2/1 body, preventing 5+ points of damage being dealt to your board: Tempo advantage and preventing 5+ damage from being dealt to your board
BGH + Comboed Cold Blood: You kill a 3+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Still better than Assassinate, regardless of the value of the enemy minion.
A lot of decks don't care as much about tempo or card advantage as they do about flexibility, so those alone won't make BGH a staple for many decks. If what you said is correct then Priest would have run him over shadow word: death every day of the week, but they didn't because tempo and card advantage weren't as important as flexibility. You will see other decks making that same choice soon enough.
For example: Is BGH really THAT much better than assassinate for a rogue? I don't think so. Not unless you are running tempo rogue, and in that instance you are looking to push for lethal about the time someone plays a 7 atk minion anyway so BGH wouldn't be all that good at for that style of deck anyway.
Kezan Mystic gave you card advantage and tempo advantage too, but that doesn't mean that it was an unbalanced card. Kezan mystic was a tech card (like BGH will likely be) where it is not likely to be an auto include and will see a lot of play when the format is really heavy with the type of deck that it counters, and will see basically no play in metas where it is light on decks that it counters. (There are several other examples of this such as The Black Knight and Mind Control Tech)
Yes. BGH is that much better than Assassinate for rogue.
Vanilla BGH: You kill a 7+ attack minion for 5 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Tempo and card advantage, preventing 7+ points of damage being dealt to your board
BGH + Abusive: You kill a 5+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 and 2/1 body, preventing 5+ points of damage being dealt to your board: Tempo advantage and preventing 5+ damage from being dealt to your board
BGH + Comboed Cold Blood: You kill a 3+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Still better than Assassinate, regardless of the value of the enemy minion.
Your whole comment is based off of tempo, and outside of tempo rogue (which wouldn't run BGH anyway) the tempo doesn't matter that much when the tempo difference is so little. In my opinion you focus way too much on card advantage and tempo advantage in a game where that doesn't matter all that much right now.
Also, it looks like you were wrong. I've played a couple hundred games since the nerf and I've had BGH played against me less than a handful of times (and I'm running plenty of targets), so apparently things have changed quite a bit.
I agree with the increase mana cost, seems fair. I'd like it to be 4 mana though, and the effect triggering at the beginning of your turn. Gives the big guy to be killed a chance to fight back once. Gives the player who cast it the joy of having it at least one turn.
You can't one-shot a big monster, but you can beat it in a fight that takes to beginning of your next turn.
That would be really weak, like a weaker Corruption, and outside of Dark Peddler discovering it, I don't think I've ever seen it in constructed. BGH nerf was needed, it got hit hard, I haven't even seen him yet after the patch.
A lot of decks don't care as much about tempo or card advantage as they do about flexibility, so those alone won't make BGH a staple for many decks. If what you said is correct then Priest would have run him over shadow word: death every day of the week, but they didn't because tempo and card advantage weren't as important as flexibility. You will see other decks making that same choice soon enough.
For example: Is BGH really THAT much better than assassinate for a rogue? I don't think so. Not unless you are running tempo rogue, and in that instance you are looking to push for lethal about the time someone plays a 7 atk minion anyway so BGH wouldn't be all that good at for that style of deck anyway.
Kezan Mystic gave you card advantage and tempo advantage too, but that doesn't mean that it was an unbalanced card. Kezan mystic was a tech card (like BGH will likely be) where it is not likely to be an auto include and will see a lot of play when the format is really heavy with the type of deck that it counters, and will see basically no play in metas where it is light on decks that it counters. (There are several other examples of this such as The Black Knight and Mind Control Tech)
Yes. BGH is that much better than Assassinate for rogue.
Vanilla BGH: You kill a 7+ attack minion for 5 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Tempo and card advantage, preventing 7+ points of damage being dealt to your board
BGH + Abusive: You kill a 5+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 and 2/1 body, preventing 5+ points of damage being dealt to your board: Tempo advantage and preventing 5+ damage from being dealt to your board
BGH + Comboed Cold Blood: You kill a 3+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Still better than Assassinate, regardless of the value of the enemy minion.
Your whole comment is based off of tempo, and outside of tempo rogue (which wouldn't run BGH anyway) the tempo doesn't matter that much when the tempo difference is so little. In my opinion you focus way too much on card advantage and tempo advantage in a game where that doesn't matter all that much right now.
Also, it looks like you were wrong. I've played a couple hundred games since the nerf and I've had BGH played against me less than a handful of times (and I'm running plenty of targets), so apparently things have changed quite a bit.
Your whole comment is based off of tempo, and outside of tempo rogue (which wouldn't run BGH anyway) the tempo doesn't matter that much when the tempo difference is so little. In my opinion you focus way too much on card advantage and tempo advantage in a game where that doesn't matter all that much right now.
Also, it looks like you were wrong. I've played a couple hundred games since the nerf and I've had BGH played against me less than a handful of times (and I'm running plenty of targets), so apparently things have changed quite a bit.
What targets do you run -- and how do they die?
I'm running control warrior so there are a few (Rag, geddon, C'Thun just to name a few (I believe there is at least one more that I can't think of). I also ran shaman for a little while and I had 2 of the 4 mana 7/7s, an earth elemental, and Rag. They die to either normal removal or minion to minion combat.
Considering that most of my games with warrior go to fatigue and I see every card in my opponents deck, I can say with authority that almost none of my opponents run BGH.
Your whole comment is based off of tempo, and outside of tempo rogue (which wouldn't run BGH anyway) the tempo doesn't matter that much when the tempo difference is so little. In my opinion you focus way too much on card advantage and tempo advantage in a game where that doesn't matter all that much right now.
Also, it looks like you were wrong. I've played a couple hundred games since the nerf and I've had BGH played against me less than a handful of times (and I'm running plenty of targets), so apparently things have changed quite a bit.
What targets do you run -- and how do they die?
I'm running control warrior so there are a few (Rag, geddon, C'Thun just to name a few (I believe there is at least one more that I can't think of). I also ran shaman for a little while and I had 2 of the 4 mana 7/7s, an earth elemental, and Rag. They die to either normal removal or minion to minion combat.
Considering that most of my games with warrior go to fatigue and I see every card in my opponents deck, I can say with authority that almost none of my opponents run BGH.
And your Mage, Druid and Warlock opponents would clearly benefit from running BGH. Would they not..?
What cards in those classes deals with Ragnaros, Baron Geddon or C'thun BETTER than BGH..?
And... tempo... and card advantage. What else is there to desire from a card, in a control deck..? Like; Seriously? The only other possible desire you could have from a card is early defensive capability versus small minions or spells, OR early tempo advantage on an empty board.
I'm running control warrior so there are a few (Rag, geddon, C'Thun just to name a few (I believe there is at least one more that I can't think of). I also ran shaman for a little while and I had 2 of the 4 mana 7/7s, an earth elemental, and Rag. They die to either normal removal or minion to minion combat.
Considering that most of my games with warrior go to fatigue and I see every card in my opponents deck, I can say with authority that almost none of my opponents run BGH.
And your Mage, Druid and Warlock opponents would clearly benefit from running BGH. Would they not..?
What cards in those classes deals with Ragnaros, Baron Geddon or C'thun BETTER than BGH..?
Are you serious? Mage has some of the best removal in the game, and druid is likely to be playing big creatures much faster than you (and they can match you big creature for big creature quite easily and still have plenty of big threats left over after you are out). Zoo warlock will likely be in a winning position before you play a big creature, and if not then they can flood the board and kill you before the big creature does anything. If nothing else than can just PO into your creature for a cheap removal. Reno warlock has plenty of premium removal so I won't even go there.
Sure, there's no better removal than BGH, but saying that those classes would benefit from BGH based solely off of that fact is straight up illogical. It's perfectly reasonable to think that they would not benefit from running BGH.
What else is there to desire from a card, in a control deck..? Like; Seriously?
We've already been over that. Control decks want versatility, and BGH doesn't provide that. If your opponent doesn't play 7+ atk minions, doesn't draw their 7+ atk minions, or you are dead by the time they would draw and play them because you are holding onto a 5 mana 4/2 waiting for a target. The reason that control decks ran BGH (and in some cases double BGH like I was) is because it was amazing removal and at worse it was a 3 mana 4/2 which was playable without effect to keep from losing out on tempo against non-control decks so you weren't really punished much for playing it, a 5 mana 4/2 on the other hand is a huge punish if you don't get his effect which is why I'm not running him right now.
Sure, there's no better removal than BGH, but saying that those classes would benefit from BGH based solely off of that fact is straight up illogical. It's perfectly reasonable to think that they would not benefit from running BGH
They would benefit vs Shaman... They would benefit vs Control Warrior...
[card]ure, there's no better removal than BGH, but saying that those classes would benefit from BGH based solely off of that fact is straight up illogical. It's perfectly reasonable to think that they would not benefit from running BGH[/card]
They would benefit vs Shaman... They would benefit vs Control Warrior...
That's 50% of the current ladder..!
Reno would benefit every single class in the game against aggro shaman, why do people not run that in every single deck?
Also, from my experience, BGH would only benefit you in shaman matchups that either run 7+ atk minions or focus on evolve, which is most certainly not every shaman.
In any case, unless you want to claim that BGH is still extremely popular then this conversation is over since my original assertion was that the nerf was big enough to make people rethink their decision to play BGH, and by all accounts it looks like it has.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I wish it was made WORSE against 7+ attack minions, which was the problem with the card -- not it's tempo versus aggro.
GOOD nerf: Making it worse against 7+ attack minions
BAD nerf: Making it worse against dekcs NOT running any 7+ attack minions.
I don't want people to stop running BGH because it sucks against decks that do not have 7+ attack minions...
I want to run 7+ attack minions knowing that I'm not completely at the mercy of my opponent not running a card that gives him a 9.5 mana board advantage if I play a 7+ attack minion.
This nerf is like a sex offender ordered by the court, not to stop harassing his victim, but staying 1 mile away from the beach where he raped her -- completely disregarding the actual problem being the interaction between him and his target.
Problem: It kills 7 cost attack minions.
That was, is and always was the literal problem with this card.
Not that it killed 7+ attack minions, but that the tempo advantage was 11 mana for killing a 7 cost minion.
Well. 9 mana board advantage is still gamebreaking, and the solution for any deck that doesn't run cards that generate obscene tempo advantage is STILL to never run any BGH targets.
Ironically, if BGH no longer sees play, it's not because it's not good enough, it's that 7+ attack minions aren't played enough to warrant his use -- which STILL is a loss for 7+ attack minions and people who like playing high cost cards and the control game.
I just opened a Golden BGH XD
Seriously though, if its Battlecry can be used then it will be worth playing.
As dumb as it sounds, I usually run BGH in joust decks making it a buff for that style of deck. Joust paladins and shaman rejoice. Other wise great nerfs for all purpose decks.
VS
Card Advantage + Tempo Advantage
BGH is 1+ card advantage bundled with tempo advantage.
IF used on a card your opponent blessed with Blessing of Kings or another buff, it's 2 card advantage.
IF used on a card with a total value, base value or base value + buff value, of 7 mana:
-7 mana worth of bodies for the opponent, body worth 2.5 mana on your side, paid with 5 mana: 4.5 tempo advantage for killing the enemy minion worth 7 mana.
In control decks with decent enough draw, you never HAVE to play him, and as a 1 of...
that's a 2 mana opportunity cost of having him among your drawn cards in games where you never play him AND paid for card draw to get cards you needed because you had BGH in your hand but didn't need him.
IF you value BGH's body at 3 mana, or 2.5 mana, playing Blessing of Kings on an enemy 7 cost minion to take it to 7 attack and killing it with BGH is STILL cost efficient;
It's a 7 mana for 7 mana, 1 for 1, trade:
Your blessing of kings for his 7+ value minion.
You pay 9 mana for BGH and taking out his 7 cost minion, and keep BGH's 2.5-3 mana body.
You profited 0.5 to 1 mana depending on how you value BGH's body.
Even if you only value BGH's body as a 2 cost, Blessing of Kings + BGH on an enemy 7 cost minion is still neutral.
It's not a combo, and there's better ways to make a minion a BGH target, but... the fact that it's actually cost NEUTRAL to cast Blessing of Kings and then BGH-ing it -- AFTER the nerf...
He still got the fun in his sights, and the only way he's not going to see play is if continued existence bullies 7+ attack minions to never go outside in the first place;
Which is why I said;
Nothing has changed.
He's still a testament to Blizzard's questionable balancing, which seriously contradicts their initial game philosophy for Hearthstone as a game where players trade minions ON THE BOARD for board advantage.
Which was exactly what I wanted from the game, and the reason why non-combo Druid is my favorite class.
I still think we should have a card like bgh in the game, because sometimes you have no way to come back if they put down a 7 attack minion. This nerf makes it a lot more balanced, the situations where a gready deck is punished for playing so little... this card is there. In the future I hope we get more class specific removal so we can move away from this neutral minion.
Lawl, I have 2 BGH, Not DE either, Still Is excellent and as soon as WotOG comes out i'll probably be running 2 of them :)
I like to make cards and discuss game balance.
I enjoy when "No similar decks were found."
My latest deck: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1366184-scholomance-charge-rez-priest-wild
Vanilla BGH: You kill a 7+ attack minion for 5 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Tempo and card advantage, preventing 7+ points of damage being dealt to your board
BGH + Abusive: You kill a 5+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 and 2/1 body, preventing 5+ points of damage being dealt to your board: Tempo advantage and preventing 5+ damage from being dealt to your board
BGH + Comboed Cold Blood: You kill a 3+ attack minion for 6 mana, and get a 4/2 body: Still better than Assassinate, regardless of the value of the enemy minion.
Would they not..?
What cards in those classes deals with Ragnaros, Baron Geddon or C'thun BETTER than BGH..?
And... tempo... and card advantage.
What else is there to desire from a card, in a control deck..? Like; Seriously?
The only other possible desire you could have from a card is early defensive capability versus small minions or spells, OR early tempo advantage on an empty board.
Your poll needs a third option like it's fine or you don't care. I'm sure most people don't love/hate it.
They would benefit vs Shaman...
They would benefit vs Control Warrior...
That's almost 50% of the current ladder..!
In any case, unless you want to claim that BGH is still extremely popular then this conversation is over since my original assertion was that the nerf was big enough to make people rethink their decision to play BGH, and by all accounts it looks like it has.