I would say you need more hard removal or a vanish to make up for the lack of board clear. Also switch out a sinister strike - you never need more than 1 because its a dead card the whole game till maly is down.
I wonder if maybe a conceal is needed to ensure Edwin or Maly lives a turn, because we lack the blade fury finisher.
Maybe even a sir Findley, then you can drop the poison.
I'd say it's a bit viable, but the Maly Rouge is LESS versatile, due to a limited pool of board wipes and a lost portion of its burst (Due to Blade Flurry nerf). Otherwise, I'd say the deck does have potential, as long as you have a GREAT skill cap level with Rouge.
Rogue has never been popular after gvg If you're a fan of rogues it's going to be very hard to drop her. I dont really care if rogue decks are "weak". It's about the satisfaction I get of playing Maly and Oil. Raptor didn't appeal to me that much because I can pretty much get same experience using other classes.
Rogue has never been popular after gvg If you're a fan of rogues it's going to be very hard to drop her. I dont really care if rogue decks are "weak". It's about the satisfaction I get of playing Maly and Oil. Raptor didn't appeal to me that much because I can pretty much get same experience using other classes.
For me it's yes and no for your last point. After examining the deathrattle cards in Rogue (compared to Hunter and the current Zoolock), the class is more oriented towards hand value than board tempo, which is much more interesting (again, for me) and you have cards to gain back board tempo. If I dont run out of options and make tempo plays each turn, then I'm fine with a minion oriented Rogue (and we now have crazy midgame removal into Shadow Strike, which can be a key card for the deathrattle deck).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Rogue has never been popular after gvg If you're a fan of rogues it's going to be very hard to drop her. I dont really care if rogue decks are "weak". It's about the satisfaction I get of playing Maly and Oil. Raptor didn't appeal to me that much because I can pretty much get same experience using other classes.
Playing Miracle, Oil or Maly is amazing and an incredible experience, but let's be honest, this nerf just killed oil and to in Maly that 2 mana 6 damage aoe was many times essential to winning, or even at 3 damage to kill the enemys board and survive to play you maly combo. Nerfing this card like this removes at least 30% of the fun (for me at least)
This is totally ridiculous 4 mana aoe like cons. but it requires wep and deals 1 dmg so its at least 6 mana 1 dmg aoe or adding a deadly poison makes it 7 mana 3 dmg flamestrike but 2 card combo. its so unbalanced. i really hated this nerf whatever u compare, it doesnt matter 4 mana shadowflame even cone of cold is better... we have 2 aoes fan of knives 3 mana 1 dmg aoe - 1 card draw that equals 1 mana so its 2 mana 1 dmg aoe vs flurry 4 mana + 0.5 mana from min req dagger its 4.5 mana min for 1 dmg WTF...
I've stopped running Flurry now. Flurry was already a pain in the ass with the soft combo requirement (it's a dead card without poison or a weapon), and now at 4 mana it just sucks.
I think Blizz fully intended to kill this card. Fine, we'll adapt.
4 was a real overkill, I would've actually use it if it was 3 mana. Rogues don't have good sweeper. It'll probably see play once we get decent weapon/weapon buff.
"Blade Flurry is a problem because it enables both board clear and heavy burst damage, and it’s also an obstacle to adding better cards for Rogues. To address these issues, the cost of Blade Flurry is moving from 2 to 4 mana, and it will now only affect minions, so that Rogues have to choose between removing threats or damaging the enemy Hero." "...it’s also an obstacle to adding better cards for Rogues."
Rouge was dead, so in order to print better cards for it, Blizzard had to remove Blade Flurry . That makes sense. Blizzard also felt that Conceal was too strong with potential Rogue cards that they had in mind. Alright Blizzard, I feel like the Blade Flurry nerf might have been enough but okay, that's fine so long as we get some good cards soon...
Since this nerf, Whispers of the Old Gods, One Night in Kharazan, Mean Streets of Gadgetzan, Journey to Un'Goro, and Knights of the Frozen Throne have all come out. Let's go over the Rogue cards that have seen play from these past 5 card sets and the deck arch-types that they've spawned.
Whispers of the Old Gods
Neutral:
The only neutral cards from this entire expansion that were consistently run in any Rogue deck were N'Zoth, the Corruptor and Twilight Summoner , but I'll talk about deathrattle Rogue in a minute.
Rogue:
Undercity Huckster : Saw a decent amount of play in one of my favorite non-miracle Rogue decks, N'Zoth Rogue. That is, until League of Explorers rotated out a couple of weeks later taking with it Unearthed Raptor and Tomb Pillager .
Shadowcaster : Card like this can only be run in two situations. 1) The meta is so ridiculously slow every game comes down to value. 2) It can be used for an OTK combo (which Blizzard will be sure to kill in the next patch)
Xaril, Poisoned Mind : Can, in theory, see play in miracle decks, but only in VERY control heavy and slow metas (not sure if we'll ever see one of those again). But has only really been used in aggro/ tempo Rogue decks.
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One Night in Karazhan
Neutral:
Arcane Giant : This has to be one of Blizzard's biggest gifts to miracle Rogue since Tomb Pillager . Thank you Blizzard, cards like these make me keep playing this children's card game.
Rogue:
Swashburglar : Solid card, will be played in whatever Rogue decks there are until it rotates out, but I don't think that this is the good card that Blizzard was making space for, seeing that Conceal and Blade Flurry have pretty much no interaction with this card.
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Mean Streets of Gadgetzan
Neutral:
Small-Time Buccaneer : This card saw a bunch play in tempo/ aggro decks (and even found its way into a few miracle lists) before it was nerfed.
Counterfeit Coin : A nice card to have, it shows that Blizzard acknowledges that miracle Rogue does, in fact, exist. Is run pretty frequently.
Gadgetzan Ferryman : Was a very nice bounce to have for The Caverns Below . That is, until Blizzard nerfed quest Rogue from being one of the best decks in the game to being one of the worst.
Shaku, the Collector : The only list that this card seems to make it into are aggro/ tempo.
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Journey to Un'Goro
Neutral:
ERROR #404 NO GOOD CARDS FOUND
Rogue:
Hallucination : A fun card. I think that this card is the best implementation of the Burgle idea for miracle Rogue to date. Good for Gadgetzan Auctioneer , combo, and making that emote-spamming prick concede when I discover Tirion Fordring .
Mimic Pod : Decent version of Thistle Tea . But I feel like this card represents a lot of what is wrong with Rogue at the moment. Most miracle lists run it, but this really isn't a very good card whereas decks like Kazakus Priest have to have 30 unique cards and all of them are better individual cards than this one.
Vilespine Slayer : I don't particularly like this just because it doesn't really feel like a Rogue card. I mean, don't get me wrong, I run this card in every Rogue deck I play, but it feels like Blizzard just said "Welp, Rogue is ass so let's print a cookie-cutter good card for them."
The Caverns Below : I want to start off saying that I really like the idea of the quest cards in Hearthstone. And this quest looked like exactly what you want from a development and balance point of view; the reward was good enough to justify making your deck worse in some areas so that you can fulfill the quest (which is where they completely failed with Patches the Pirate . All you have to do is swap out some 1 drops for 2x Bloodsail Corsair and you're set.). However, in practice, it looks like bouncing a minion back 4 times was too easy to do for the reward that followed, and bouncing a minion back 5 times was too hard.
Sherazin, Corpse Flower : I really like value cards like Cairne Bloodhoof where the immediate stats you get aren't worth the mana you spent, but in the long run it more than makes up for it. Which is why i like the thought of this card. It's an infinite value card that synergies well with miracle Rogue, literally my dream card. However, the way that Blizzard has set up the meta (SMOrc) Sherazin must remain in the My Collection tab.
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Knights of the Frozen Throne
Neutral:
ERROR 404 NO GOOD CARDS FOUND
Rogue:
Lilian Voss : If there's one thing that you want to do as Rogue, a class which is extremely dependent on its spells working well together in pre-planned ways, its completely get rid of all of your spells for a hand full of Purify .
Valeera the Hollow : A super interesting card that I think will only get more interesting as people figure out better and better ways to use it. There's already a really cool miracle deck that uses a 0 mana Arcane Giant + the Shadow Reflection of it to develop 2 8/8's and then Vanish so that you have 2 in hand for next turn and you can use another Shadow Reflection to develop 3 8/8's. It's just a shame that this is the only card that Rogue got out of the entire expansion.
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Conclusion:
None of the cards listed above would have made Blade Flurry any better than it was. As a matter of fact, it would be a hell of a lot worse than it was because Tinker's Sharpsword Oil was on its way out. In addition to this, the only card that would have made Conceal any better was Arcane Giant or Valeera the Hollow . The giant would have been a small issue with Conceal because it's never fun for your opponent to play two 0 mana 8/8's and then not let you hit them, but this could have been easily prevented by making it so that Conceal can't stealth anything with more than 5 attack. I could also see the argument for Valeera the Hollow being too strong with Conceal because she gives your hero stealth which means that all your opponent can do is develop their board or (more importantly) try to kill of whatever minions you have out. But this also could have been easily fixed by making either Valeera the Hollow cost 10 mana or Conceal cost 2.
NOTE: I didn't include cards that are only used by tempo Rogue because tempo decks are pretty much all the same no matter what class you're using and they just sort of move from one class to the next depending on which has the best class-specific tempo cards. Instead, I looked at cards which either helped existing arch-types like Counterfeit Coin or helped create completely new arch-types like Undercity Huckster (even if it was only for a few weeks). I spent like an hour and 45 minutes on this and there is like 0 chance that anyone will ever read this.
I spent like an hour and 45 minutes on this and there is like 0 chance that anyone will ever read this.
I did :P
Good analysis job, BTW. I have no idea which was(were) the card(s) Team 5 had in mind, that would have been too strong with [card]Blade Flurry[/card] or [card] Conceal[/card]. And won't spend like 2 hours discussing all your (quite valid) points, sorry about that ;)
But feel the need to comment your last note: you say
I didn't include cards that are only used by tempo Rogue because tempo decks are pretty much all the same no matter what class you're using and they just sort of move from one class to the next depending on which has the best class-specific tempo cards
That may be true, and in fact we're seeing several classes toying with Prince Keleseth. But you must admit that the one class which is most successfully leveraging it is Rogue, and by far.
I would say you need more hard removal or a vanish to make up for the lack of board clear. Also switch out a sinister strike - you never need more than 1 because its a dead card the whole game till maly is down.
I wonder if maybe a conceal is needed to ensure Edwin or Maly lives a turn, because we lack the blade fury finisher.
Maybe even a sir Findley, then you can drop the poison.
If Ben Brode hates non-interactive OTKs so much he is free to take care of Freeze Mage any time.
"Let's nerf the worst weakest class in the game because yolo" -Ben Brode and HS dev team
Neither Oil or Maly has been considered a Tier 2 deck until last week. Then it gets nerfed. Combo druid stood at #1 for 4 months. #Blizz
Face is the place
What class you guys will be playing now? I give up on Rogue ;(
I Break the Meta. watch out. :)
Rogue has never been popular after gvg If you're a fan of rogues it's going to be very hard to drop her. I dont really care if rogue decks are "weak". It's about the satisfaction I get of playing Maly and Oil. Raptor didn't appeal to me that much because I can pretty much get same experience using other classes.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
They ruined hype for new expansion with this nerf, I will play wild with mech rogue, bb old gods
Apotechary Society of Undercity
This is totally ridiculous 4 mana aoe like cons. but it requires wep and deals 1 dmg so its at least 6 mana 1 dmg aoe or adding a deadly poison makes it 7 mana 3 dmg flamestrike but 2 card combo. its so unbalanced. i really hated this nerf whatever u compare, it doesnt matter 4 mana shadowflame even cone of cold is better... we have 2 aoes fan of knives 3 mana 1 dmg aoe - 1 card draw that equals 1 mana so its 2 mana 1 dmg aoe vs flurry 4 mana + 0.5 mana from min req dagger its 4.5 mana min for 1 dmg WTF...
Flamestrike is 4 dmg Kappa
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
We survived after Gadgetzan Auctioneer nerf
We survived after Leeroy Jenkins nerf
After GvG where everyone said Valeera was buried, she rose from the ashes thanks to the ingenuity of some rogue players. Oil Rogue saved us!
Wotog may look grim for us but I want to believe we'll find a way!
I've stopped running Flurry now. Flurry was already a pain in the ass with the soft combo requirement (it's a dead card without poison or a weapon), and now at 4 mana it just sucks.
I think Blizz fully intended to kill this card. Fine, we'll adapt.
If they wanted to kill it they could just rotate it with sth else from another set. It's just so frustrating to have dead cards in the classic sets.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
4 was a real overkill, I would've actually use it if it was 3 mana. Rogues don't have good sweeper. It'll probably see play once we get decent weapon/weapon buff.