So far arguments made against Ancient Shieldbearer don't deserve a lot of comment. Let's just say there is a tier 0 and one card needs to be there. It has to be Ancient Shieldbearer because its the most impressive one so far.
Why is Klaxxi Amber-Weaver any good in Druid? There is good reason why Priest is the class who loves big minions. I don't see it. Need more input if you want me to move it.
Master of Evolution: It is kind of slow and pointless. Great card in Arena, though. Don't have the heart to admit it will probably be Tier 4.
Does anyone else think its bad? I need more input to move it. I see it as a good way of buffing Shaman's hero power with some added potential.
Thanks for all the input, sorry that I don't have a lot of time in my hands to go through it in more detail.
What? No, ignore that guy. Master of Evolution is amazing.
As long as you have one other minion on the board, it's a 4-mana Yeti + extra creature. If played on curve, it could well be 4 mana for two 4-mana minions. Often you can trade with a 2- or 3-mana minion, then Evolution the resulting damaged minion, gaining even more tempo.
So far arguments made against Ancient Shieldbearer don't deserve a lot of comment. Let's just say there is a tier 0 and one card needs to be there. It has to be Ancient Shieldbearer because its the most impressive one so far.
No there doesn't need to be a card in the tier 0 slot and no shieldbearer is not the most impressive card, rag, most of the shaman and druid cards are more impressive.
For that card to be tier 0 it would mean that people would be playing c'thun only in warrior and only because it activates sheildbearer.
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Saying RNG isn't detracting from skill in hearthstone, won't convince anyone it's a good idea. It just shows your too stupid to understand the basics principles of good game design.
Forbidden Flame will see play. Mark of Y'Shaarj will see play if Beast Druid is good enough. Tentacles for Arms could see play in Fatigue Warrior as a 1 of.
So if C'thun warrior wasn't allowed to actually cast C'thun it would still be a thing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Saying RNG isn't detracting from skill in hearthstone, won't convince anyone it's a good idea. It just shows your too stupid to understand the basics principles of good game design.
Added Blood Warriors and Blood of The Ancient One to tier 4. The first one is just a more expensive Echo of Medivh since we don't have Death's Bite and echo was barely played outside of echo giants, which wasn't even that good a deck if your opponent knew what he was doing. Its so bad that I believe in order to abuse it you would have to put together a really questionable deck with Emperor Thaurissan. I don't see it.
I don't think Blood Warriors deserves tier 4. Your points are valid, but seeing the hype, people will definitely try it out in Patron, CW, maybe even in more aggro- or midrange-like decks, along with N'Zoths Tentacle and Ravaging Ghoul. In Patron it would serve as a recovery, putting Patrons back in hand in case of Flamestrike or something, in CW, well, CW's cards are very strong and it wouldn't hurt to have a second Grommash, a second finisher. Deaths Bite will be gone, but cards like Taskmaster and whirlwind won't be, whirl+this=echo basically and warrior cards have great value to them. At least tier 3
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I'm just another one of those. You know, those who do things. Things that need to be done by those that do these things in order to do those things that don't do these things themselves. Has the word 'things' lost meaning to you already?
I agree Master of Evolution seems like tier 1 material but I could not be seeing the whole picture. I'm open to suggestions.
It depends if you think 4 mana 4/5's will be a thing in a post Shredder meta. If it becomes a thing, the card will be a tier 2. (Not an auto-include in Shaman; but, good for Midrange or Aggro decks that want quality, vanilla minions.) If you don't think 4 mana 4/5's will be a thing like me, I don't think the effect justifies inclusion in any deck.
What? No, ignore that guy. Master of Evolution is amazing.
As long as you have one other minion on the board, it's a 4-mana Yeti + extra creature. If played on curve, it could well be 4 mana for two 4-mana minions. Often you can trade with a 2- or 3-mana minion, then Evolution the resulting damaged minion, gaining even more tempo.
This rationale for the value of the effect is pretty bad. Throughout the history of constructed, there are barely any decks in the meta with a 1-2-3-4 mana minion curve and I don't expect that to change in WoG. (Many decks don't even have a 1-2-3-4 mana spell/minion/weapon curve.) Aggro Shaman, atm, will likely do something like Feral Spirit or be overloaded on turn 3.
If Master of Evolution hits a 3 drop, you are probably building your deck around it and making suboptimal deck choices. Of course, not all cards have been revealed yet so if there are amazing 3 drop minions then Master of Evolution's effect can be good. Assuming nothing changes, the times when you actually get card advantage by evolving a damaged minion will be as often your Earthen Ring Farseer actually heals a minion for 3 (or even 2)... almost never.
Master of Evolution is pretty close to a vanilla 4 mana 4/5, IMO. Its effect is an okay bonus; but, I'm not sure it is what Shaman will find a use for. Plus, I don't predict 4 mana 4/5's will be a thing. Once again, great card in Arena which actually curves out with minions. Not so useful in constructed.
ETA: For those who still don't understand why Master of Evolution probably won't see play except in a deck already wanting a 4 mana 4/5, think of Recombobulator.
Its effect is a slight improvement upon Recombobulator's and instead of a 2 mana 3/2, which are decent stats, it is 4 mana 4/5, another set of decent stats. I don't think Recombobulator 2.0 is going to break the meta.
I suppose I could see it in some kind of zoo/midrange deck with a C'thun finisher.
If you could pick up 2-3 from the list of: Frothing Berserker, Armorsmith, Acolyte of Pain, any of the Cthun cultists, you could keep the early-midgame going for a long time.
I agree Master of Evolution seems like tier 1 material but I could not be seeing the whole picture. I'm open to suggestions.
It depends if you think 4 mana 4/5's will be a thing in a post Shredder meta. If it becomes a thing, the card will be a tier 2. (Not an auto-include in Shaman; but, good for Midrange or Aggro decks that want it.) If you don't think 4 mana 4/5's will be a thing like me, I don't think the effect justifies inclusion in any deck.
What? No, ignore that guy. Master of Evolution is amazing.
As long as you have one other minion on the board, it's a 4-mana Yeti + extra creature. If played on curve, it could well be 4 mana for two 4-mana minions. Often you can trade with a 2- or 3-mana minion, then Evolution the resulting damaged minion, gaining even more tempo.
This rationale is pretty bad. Outside of Arena, there are barely any decks in the meta with a 1-2-3-4 mana minion curve. If Master of Evolution hits your 3 drop, you are probably building your deck around it and making suboptimal deck choices.
Tuskarr Totemicisn't suboptimal really good with battlecry minions really and it's not like shaman got a better 4 drop atm (fireguard destroyer ruins your turn 5..
4/5 should be fine in WoG, but a question comes to mind: on average, do you get value from its effect?
If you could use it on a hero power totem, say one summoned by Tuskarr Totemic, then you spent ~1.25 mana (3 mana cost - 1.75 body worth) for a 1.75 mana transformed minion (on average) which is like a 1 mana improvement over a hero power totem (evaluating them at 0.5 + 0.2 mana). It can also summon Flametongue Totem, Vitality Totem and Mana Tide Totem. You don't want to use the battlecry on Totem Golem so lets not consider it. If the first 2 are worth on average 1.5 + 0.2 mana and a 3 mana minion is worth on average 2.75, and if the last one is worth 2.25 + 0.2 and a 4 mana minion is worth on average 3.75, then you add on average (1.05*4 + 1.05*2 + 1.30*1)/7 ~ 1.1 to a minion worth, by the same reasoning, 3.45 mana on average (taking Totem Golem to be worth 2.75 + 0.2 mana). That's roughly speaking and in a scenario where you follow up your TT with MoE. Then your TT value is increased by 1.1 mana which is strong. The question is if a totem summoned by TT will survive the board. If TT survives and a totem does not its fine too since you add about 2 mana worth of value by transforming Tuskarr.
So if you play MoE you probably want to play TT. And if you play TT you want to play Thing from Below. That much we know. Still, its hard to say how much value you get from MoE on average (after all you're not getting turn 3 TT every time or a spare totem), but since I believe 4/5 is very close to 4 mana after Piloted Shredder is buried I'm willing to bet that on average Master of Evolution is above the curve and tier 1 material. If I happen to be too wrong feel free to throw a stone at me or two, as long as there is something wrong with my argument and not the Shaman class itself.
I do think it doesn't come close to Call of the Wild tho, but the latter comes at turn 8 and its very likely you wont run more than a single copy. Even then I might just have to make this epic tier 0 or extend tier 2.
Edit 2: found out the average for 3 mana minions is closer to 2.75 and made the same assumption for 4 mana. Added 0.2 symbolic totem value. Affected TT calculations which is worth closer to 3.5 mana.
I can't wait to play midrange Shaman with Tuskarr Totemic, Totem Golem, Thing from Below, Master of Evolution, Thunderbluff Valiant and yes, even experimenting with Draenei Totemcarver :)
For those hating on Master of Evolution, I think you are underestimating the power of +1 mana cost. Even disregarding the potential of evolving a damaged minion that has already traded (the value!), +1 mana cost is huge. Yes, more RNG, but often very good RNG (that moment when you get Totem Golem with Tuskarr Totemic... 6/6 stats for 3!).
I think a couple of the tier 4s can be bumped up a bit. What comes to mind is faceless shambler and Y'shaarj. In terms of Faceless Shambler, i think silence will be nerfed and it will find a place in some sort of slower deck. And good ol Y'shaarj, obviously this card isn't particularly good, but I think in a more spell based, late game deck, it can be mediocre.
Tuskarr Totemic is actually as impressive (if not more) in value as Master of Evolution so its become a question of playability rather than value --- because we know TT was not played. Perhaps MoE and TfB will change that.
So far arguments made against Ancient Shieldbearer don't deserve a lot of comment. Let's just say there is a tier 0 and one card needs to be there. It has to be Ancient Shieldbearer because its the most impressive one so far.
Why is Klaxxi Amber-Weaver any good in Druid? There is good reason why Priest is the class who loves big minions. I don't see it. Need more input if you want me to move it.
Does anyone else think its bad? I need more input to move it. I see it as a good way of buffing Shaman's hero power with some added potential.
Thanks for all the input, sorry that I don't have a lot of time in my hands to go through it in more detail.
Tentacle in tier 4? Yeah, no.
What? No, ignore that guy. Master of Evolution is amazing.
As long as you have one other minion on the board, it's a 4-mana Yeti + extra creature. If played on curve, it could well be 4 mana for two 4-mana minions. Often you can trade with a 2- or 3-mana minion, then Evolution the resulting damaged minion, gaining even more tempo.
No there doesn't need to be a card in the tier 0 slot and no shieldbearer is not the most impressive card, rag, most of the shaman and druid cards are more impressive.
For that card to be tier 0 it would mean that people would be playing c'thun only in warrior and only because it activates sheildbearer.
Saying RNG isn't detracting from skill in hearthstone, won't convince anyone it's a good idea. It just shows your too stupid to understand the basics principles of good game design.
I agree Master of Evolution seems like tier 1 material but I could not be seeing the whole picture. I'm open to suggestions.
And yes people will be playing C'thun Warrior for Ancient Shieldbearer.
Forbidden Flame will see play. Mark of Y'Shaarj will see play if Beast Druid is good enough. Tentacles for Arms could see play in Fatigue Warrior as a 1 of.
Ibn Fahd.
Saying RNG isn't detracting from skill in hearthstone, won't convince anyone it's a good idea. It just shows your too stupid to understand the basics principles of good game design.
Added Blood Warriors and Blood of The Ancient One to tier 4. The first one is just a more expensive Echo of Medivh since we don't have Death's Bite and echo was barely played outside of echo giants, which wasn't even that good a deck if your opponent knew what he was doing. Its so bad that I believe in order to abuse it you would have to put together a really questionable deck with Emperor Thaurissan. I don't see it.
Quick note: Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound is a great card for astral druid ^^ (Wont see play anywhere else tho)
Added Call of the Wild to tier 1. I think a single copy will be run but it seems more than enough.
I don't think Blood Warriors deserves tier 4. Your points are valid, but seeing the hype, people will definitely try it out in Patron, CW, maybe even in more aggro- or midrange-like decks, along with N'Zoths Tentacle and Ravaging Ghoul. In Patron it would serve as a recovery, putting Patrons back in hand in case of Flamestrike or something, in CW, well, CW's cards are very strong and it wouldn't hurt to have a second Grommash, a second finisher. Deaths Bite will be gone, but cards like Taskmaster and whirlwind won't be, whirl+this=echo basically and warrior cards have great value to them. At least tier 3
I'm just another one of those. You know, those who do things. Things that need to be done by those that do these things in order to do those things that don't do these things themselves. Has the word 'things' lost meaning to you already?
[Game] Name another card that has the same...
It depends if you think 4 mana 4/5's will be a thing in a post Shredder meta. If it becomes a thing, the card will be a tier 2. (Not an auto-include in Shaman; but, good for Midrange or Aggro decks that want quality, vanilla minions.) If you don't think 4 mana 4/5's will be a thing like me, I don't think the effect justifies inclusion in any deck.
I suppose I could see it in some kind of zoo/midrange deck with a C'thun finisher.
If you could pick up 2-3 from the list of: Frothing Berserker, Armorsmith, Acolyte of Pain, any of the Cthun cultists, you could keep the early-midgame going for a long time.
Yes there is nothing wrong with the vanilla valuation of Tuskarr Totemic, only with its playability. However, its playability is higher in WoG thanks to Thing from Below and Master of Evolution. Are we thinking too close to the grave of Piloted Shredder?
4/5 should be fine in WoG, but a question comes to mind: on average, do you get value from its effect?
If you could use it on a hero power totem, say one summoned by Tuskarr Totemic, then you spent ~1.25 mana (3 mana cost - 1.75 body worth) for a 1.75 mana transformed minion (on average) which is like a 1 mana improvement over a hero power totem (evaluating them at 0.5 + 0.2 mana). It can also summon Flametongue Totem, Vitality Totem and Mana Tide Totem. You don't want to use the battlecry on Totem Golem so lets not consider it. If the first 2 are worth on average 1.5 + 0.2 mana and a 3 mana minion is worth on average 2.75, and if the last one is worth 2.25 + 0.2 and a 4 mana minion is worth on average 3.75, then you add on average (1.05*4 + 1.05*2 + 1.30*1)/7 ~ 1.1 to a minion worth, by the same reasoning, 3.45 mana on average (taking Totem Golem to be worth 2.75 + 0.2 mana). That's roughly speaking and in a scenario where you follow up your TT with MoE. Then your TT value is increased by 1.1 mana which is strong. The question is if a totem summoned by TT will survive the board. If TT survives and a totem does not its fine too since you add about 2 mana worth of value by transforming Tuskarr.
So if you play MoE you probably want to play TT. And if you play TT you want to play Thing from Below. That much we know. Still, its hard to say how much value you get from MoE on average (after all you're not getting turn 3 TT every time or a spare totem), but since I believe 4/5 is very close to 4 mana after Piloted Shredder is buried I'm willing to bet that on average Master of Evolution is above the curve and tier 1 material. If I happen to be too wrong feel free to throw a stone at me or two, as long as there is something wrong with my argument and not the Shaman class itself.
I do think it doesn't come close to Call of the Wild tho, but the latter comes at turn 8 and its very likely you wont run more than a single copy. Even then I might just have to make this epic tier 0 or extend tier 2.
Edit 1: I know I have underestimated Tuskarr Totemic because the totem class has value (with Thing from Below and all), but it still helps to illustrate the potential value of Master of Evolution.
Edit 2: found out the average for 3 mana minions is closer to 2.75 and made the same assumption for 4 mana. Added 0.2 symbolic totem value. Affected TT calculations which is worth closer to 3.5 mana.
I can't wait to play midrange Shaman with Tuskarr Totemic, Totem Golem, Thing from Below, Master of Evolution, Thunderbluff Valiant and yes, even experimenting with Draenei Totemcarver :)
For those hating on Master of Evolution, I think you are underestimating the power of +1 mana cost. Even disregarding the potential of evolving a damaged minion that has already traded (the value!), +1 mana cost is huge. Yes, more RNG, but often very good RNG (that moment when you get Totem Golem with Tuskarr Totemic... 6/6 stats for 3!).
Ibn Fahd.
Just play Frostwolf Warlord. One mana more, but it counts your Masters of Evolution and your Evolved creatures and your Tuskarr Totemics and so on.
I think a couple of the tier 4s can be bumped up a bit. What comes to mind is faceless shambler and Y'shaarj. In terms of Faceless Shambler, i think silence will be nerfed and it will find a place in some sort of slower deck. And good ol Y'shaarj, obviously this card isn't particularly good, but I think in a more spell based, late game deck, it can be mediocre.
Tuskarr Totemic is actually as impressive (if not more) in value as Master of Evolution so its become a question of playability rather than value --- because we know TT was not played. Perhaps MoE and TfB will change that.
See my last reply for the value estimation.