I'm sorry mate, i was a bit too harsh. But seriously, why compare them? They are both secrets yes, but i could also compare let's say Hand of Protection with Arcane Intellect and say that i do that because they are both spells. Point being that in both cases, the mage cards cost triple (!) as much Crystals as the Paladin card. Anyway, no offense meant.
It's actually funny that you choose Arcane Intellect because I think the new Mage Secret and Arcane Intellect are pretty comparable, pay 3 mana get 2 cards.
As for costing more than the Paladin Secret, I think that's irrelevant because I'm comparing the direction Blizzard is going with the Naxx theme and the value the card provides for it's cost and not the cards 1 to 1.
Seems kinda slow, you'd have to give up tempo to make use of it early on. Late game it could be pretty vicious.
Thing about this secret though is that you can choose to prock it immediately, it is not dependant on your opponent, so they cannot always play around it.
Even Frost Nova into Doomsayer can be stopped by a simple Bloodmage Thalnos into Fireball, or any Silence, &c.
On the whole I agree with the thrust of what you're saying, I just wanted to point out the irony of saying one Mage play is weak because another Mage play beats it rather than comparing it to other classes ;)
OMG this card is so good, so much utility. It makes secret mage harder to be played around. T3 Kririn Tor Mage + Doupilcates = 2 more Kririns for secret spam. Also damn good in death rattle decks. Suicide Harvest golem/ Cairne = you get another Golem/Bainer on board + 2 in hands. Triple Thalnos/Loot Hoarder is awesome, same as 3 x Sylvanas. T10 Antonidas + Duplicate is also a good combo.
In constructed, you can't realistically expect to recast Cairnes or even Yetis and survive. On the other hand it seems to fill the aggro mage shell fairly well, it's probably better at refilling the hand than arcane intellect because the tempo loss can be nullified with Kirin Tor Mage.
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I'm so glad there is prejudice against playing hunter/zoo/[insert FotM deck here]. People like that make the life so much easier for those of us who play to win.
Decided to spruce up the thread name too and add special icon. This is now main discussion thread for the new Mage card. :)
Thank you!
And as @Nuba said it's an aggro card but you can get some yetis from it in arena (mages don't run yetis on constructed as far as I know). Can be decent for control Mages that runs a high number of spells and a very limited number of minions.
In constructed, you can't realistically expect to recast Cairnes or even Yetis and survive. On the other hand it seems to fill the aggro mage shell fairly well, it's probably better at refilling the hand than arcane intellect because the tempo loss can be nullified with Kirin Tor Mage.
Yea, it becomes a much better play in combination with Kirin Tor Mage, but also the likelihood of getting 2x Kirin Tor Mage back is increased therefore it would benefit you to have a lot of Secrets in your deck.
Also, I see it as a card for aggro play and late game but no mid-range. As you said Chillwind Yeti and others wont be great recasts, they are best in their slot on the mana curve and not later. However, if you do go real late game minions like Ragnaros the Firelord, although expensive, is a great recast on your next turn.
Tripple Thanos, Kirin tor mage, and leper gnome seem to make this a really strong card. Any deathrattle minions will benefit well from this, as Flexr said.
Using this card for sylvanas is pretty week compared to the shaman ancestral spirit + rebirth on turn 10 for a MC and 2 slyvanas in my opinion, since you can do all of it in one turn, and it takes few mana crystals.
All of these new Naxx cards seem... incredibly OP, while having some weakness. I still think Avenge is going to cause more aggro pally's as they make 5/3 hp minions (loot hoarder, leper gnome, any 2/1 for cheap), and they can go on buffing it further or other minions. I can see silence becoming invariably mandatory in the new meta, as so much deathrattle and buffing is being added.
You can't trigger your own secrets on your turn though.
Yes you can, I've seen it done with eye for an eye before.
Blizzard changes this a couple patches ago, actually specifically citing the reasoning being so that they could design new secrets that they didn't want proc'ing on your own turn.
Not sure why people think this is so OP it's basically just a worse version of Arcane Intellect where your opponent knows the cards you draw. Only advantage is you can have more than 2 duplicate's (or 1 in case of legendaries), but unless it's used with very specific cards I don't think it's that strong.
You can't trigger your own secrets on your turn though.
Yes you can, I've seen it done with eye for an eye before.
Blizzard changes this a couple patches ago, actually specifically citing the reasoning being so that they could design new secrets that they didn't want proc'ing on your own turn.
This card is very useful with Kirin Tor Mage (so its situational). Other than that its just a slower version of arcane intelect. So until someone points a really good use for this card i think that the paladin secret its better.
So in best case scenario it boosts up secret mage decks that aren't very popular nowadays. Nothing really big
@magiuspaulus: "Why is it OP? Seriously, like i said before, i see the card advantage, but it is a tempo loss right? What makes the card so good and better than let's say Arcane Intellect?"
Arcane Intellect is RNG draw and zero board presence. The new Mage secret requires you regulate your board similar to Redemption, but it's sure to get you minions. Plus it's not *necessarily* a "tempo loss" consider Kirin Tor Mage. Before, you stock Secrets in deck, and it's sorta . . . secret triggers, secret effect is short-lived, no big deal. Now you have a Secret that lets you restock a minion that slashes cost of secrets, which changes the whole mana curve of the deck. (Well it's crystal, not mana, but still). Now yeah you still have a problem in that Kirin Tor Mage becomes central to the strategy, but once you start putting in other minions that similarly benefit from duplication - say Loot Hoarder or whatever - rather than this very spiky sort of performance, you get much smoother, consistent, and overall *better* performance.
Now, if you're asking how is the card inherently OP - wellll okay, let's say it's not inherently OP, because if you are really thinking about it, you know about secrets not triggering on your own turn, and the consequent finagling of board you have to pull. But let's say it's a card that has a lot of "potential". Besides the Kirin Tor Mage / other conditional combos I mentioned, it makes control mage a lot more viable; your big fatty gets whacked, and where before Mage really didn't have an answer, now Mage can potentially put that big fat threat back on the board again, and yet again.
. . . which just goes to show how great Hunter's Flare is. Predicting Hunter resurgence is pretty safe imo unless we see a neutral that messes with secrets.
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If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
its "3 mana, draw 2 cards.". same as thoughtsteal and arcane intellect. Unlike thoughtsteal and arcane intellect, it doesnt instantly give you the cards. In fact, if you dont have minions on the board, its useless.
I dont know that drawing minions that you have played is necessarily any better than drawing 2 random cards off the top of the deck. Especially for mages, who would probably rather draw a fireball or frostbolt than a minion most of the time.
As far as the whole "32 cards in the deck" thing, its very rare that mages run out of cards, so thats a pretty inconsequential advantage.
I would say its weaker than arcane intellect, but could still give mages enough card draw to have a more viable rush deck.
While I feel this card will have some OP plays with it, and some plays where everyone will scream "Nerf!", I think overall its going to end up giving the Mage a low end card that really doesn't impact the game and a card like Arcane Intellect will have been a better option. But in the right deck this will not only be really awesome, but super fun.
While I feel this card will have some OP plays with it, and some plays where everyone will scream "Nerf!", I think overall its going to end up giving the Mage a low end card that really doesn't impact the game and a card like Arcane Intellect will have been a better option. But in the right deck this will not only be really awesome, but super fun.
Please define fun when you see all mages in arena have a similar pattern like: turn 1 Leper, turn 2 ping, turn 3 this, and after that you die to unlimited Leper gnomes :)
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It's actually funny that you choose Arcane Intellect because I think the new Mage Secret and Arcane Intellect are pretty comparable, pay 3 mana get 2 cards.
As for costing more than the Paladin Secret, I think that's irrelevant because I'm comparing the direction Blizzard is going with the Naxx theme and the value the card provides for it's cost and not the cards 1 to 1.
-nttArc
Seems kinda slow, you'd have to give up tempo to make use of it early on. Late game it could be pretty vicious.
Thing about this secret though is that you can choose to prock it immediately, it is not dependant on your opponent, so they cannot always play around it.
Also Kirin Tor Mage ftw.
On the whole I agree with the thrust of what you're saying, I just wanted to point out the irony of saying one Mage play is weak because another Mage play beats it rather than comparing it to other classes ;)
-nttArc
OMG this card is so good, so much utility. It makes secret mage harder to be played around. T3 Kririn Tor Mage + Doupilcates = 2 more Kririns for secret spam. Also damn good in death rattle decks. Suicide Harvest golem/ Cairne = you get another Golem/Bainer on board + 2 in hands. Triple Thalnos/Loot Hoarder is awesome, same as 3 x Sylvanas. T10 Antonidas + Duplicate is also a good combo.
You can't trigger your own secrets on your turn though.
In constructed, you can't realistically expect to recast Cairnes or even Yetis and survive. On the other hand it seems to fill the aggro mage shell fairly well, it's probably better at refilling the hand than arcane intellect because the tempo loss can be nullified with Kirin Tor Mage.
I'm so glad there is prejudice against playing hunter/zoo/[insert FotM deck here]. People like that make the life so much easier for those of us who play to win.
Thank you!
And as @Nuba said it's an aggro card but you can get some yetis from it in arena (mages don't run yetis on constructed as far as I know). Can be decent for control Mages that runs a high number of spells and a very limited number of minions.
Yea, it becomes a much better play in combination with Kirin Tor Mage, but also the likelihood of getting 2x Kirin Tor Mage back is increased therefore it would benefit you to have a lot of Secrets in your deck.
Also, I see it as a card for aggro play and late game but no mid-range. As you said Chillwind Yeti and others wont be great recasts, they are best in their slot on the mana curve and not later. However, if you do go real late game minions like Ragnaros the Firelord, although expensive, is a great recast on your next turn.
-nttArc
Yes you can, I've seen it done with eye for an eye before.
Tripple Thanos, Kirin tor mage, and leper gnome seem to make this a really strong card. Any deathrattle minions will benefit well from this, as Flexr said.
Using this card for sylvanas is pretty week compared to the shaman ancestral spirit + rebirth on turn 10 for a MC and 2 slyvanas in my opinion, since you can do all of it in one turn, and it takes few mana crystals.
All of these new Naxx cards seem... incredibly OP, while having some weakness. I still think Avenge is going to cause more aggro pally's as they make 5/3 hp minions (loot hoarder, leper gnome, any 2/1 for cheap), and they can go on buffing it further or other minions. I can see silence becoming invariably mandatory in the new meta, as so much deathrattle and buffing is being added.
Blizzard changes this a couple patches ago, actually specifically citing the reasoning being so that they could design new secrets that they didn't want proc'ing on your own turn.
-nttArc
Not sure why people think this is so OP it's basically just a worse version of Arcane Intellect where your opponent knows the cards you draw. Only advantage is you can have more than 2 duplicate's (or 1 in case of legendaries), but unless it's used with very specific cards I don't think it's that strong.
Good with Bluegill warrior as well. Aggro mages coming soon.....
.....more than they already are.
There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count and those that can't.
My bad, thanks for the correction.
This card is very useful with Kirin Tor Mage (so its situational). Other than that its just a slower version of arcane intelect. So until someone points a really good use for this card i think that the paladin secret its better.
So in best case scenario it boosts up secret mage decks that aren't very popular nowadays. Nothing really big
@nttArc: Touche.
@magiuspaulus: "Why is it OP? Seriously, like i said before, i see the card advantage, but it is a tempo loss right? What makes the card so good and better than let's say Arcane Intellect?"
Arcane Intellect is RNG draw and zero board presence. The new Mage secret requires you regulate your board similar to Redemption, but it's sure to get you minions. Plus it's not *necessarily* a "tempo loss" consider Kirin Tor Mage. Before, you stock Secrets in deck, and it's sorta . . . secret triggers, secret effect is short-lived, no big deal. Now you have a Secret that lets you restock a minion that slashes cost of secrets, which changes the whole mana curve of the deck. (Well it's crystal, not mana, but still). Now yeah you still have a problem in that Kirin Tor Mage becomes central to the strategy, but once you start putting in other minions that similarly benefit from duplication - say Loot Hoarder or whatever - rather than this very spiky sort of performance, you get much smoother, consistent, and overall *better* performance.
Now, if you're asking how is the card inherently OP - wellll okay, let's say it's not inherently OP, because if you are really thinking about it, you know about secrets not triggering on your own turn, and the consequent finagling of board you have to pull. But let's say it's a card that has a lot of "potential". Besides the Kirin Tor Mage / other conditional combos I mentioned, it makes control mage a lot more viable; your big fatty gets whacked, and where before Mage really didn't have an answer, now Mage can potentially put that big fat threat back on the board again, and yet again.
. . . which just goes to show how great Hunter's Flare is. Predicting Hunter resurgence is pretty safe imo unless we see a neutral that messes with secrets.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
Play Cho turn 2, play this turn 3. Unlimited Cho(s). (LOL)
Play Pyro turn 2, play this turn 3.
Play Kirin tor Mage, then this.
Play Water Elemental then this.
Archmage Antonidas and this turn 10.
Socerer's Apprentice and this.
Cairne/Sylvana and this
Wombo combo ~~
its "3 mana, draw 2 cards.". same as thoughtsteal and arcane intellect. Unlike thoughtsteal and arcane intellect, it doesnt instantly give you the cards. In fact, if you dont have minions on the board, its useless.
I dont know that drawing minions that you have played is necessarily any better than drawing 2 random cards off the top of the deck. Especially for mages, who would probably rather draw a fireball or frostbolt than a minion most of the time.
As far as the whole "32 cards in the deck" thing, its very rare that mages run out of cards, so thats a pretty inconsequential advantage.
I would say its weaker than arcane intellect, but could still give mages enough card draw to have a more viable rush deck.
While I feel this card will have some OP plays with it, and some plays where everyone will scream "Nerf!", I think overall its going to end up giving the Mage a low end card that really doesn't impact the game and a card like Arcane Intellect will have been a better option. But in the right deck this will not only be really awesome, but super fun.
Please define fun when you see all mages in arena have a similar pattern like: turn 1 Leper, turn 2 ping, turn 3 this, and after that you die to unlimited Leper gnomes :)