You're all just a bunch of crying banshees. I am playing Wild and I am sick of those who ask for nerf this, nerf that. Gee golly, play Standard if you don't have the stomach. Neither Kingsbane is broken, nor Ressurect Priest. We have all the material to counter those decks. Maybe Secret Mage needs some tinkering, but basically that's it. The worst thing is that somehow everyone cries for Raza. Nerf Raza the Chained wah wah. Honestly, the deck isn't nearly as good as it once was. Now, everyone has counters and it's not brainless material.
MAYBE, it's time to delete your super-greedy decks with 4-5 OLD Gods and start playing something else, more viable?
BUT! Since you wish to see a change. DON'T change the mana cost. This will only make the deck a little bit slower. It's already slow, so you don't actually win anything. It's not like Raza was oppressive on turn 5. Mana cost changes (if you look at nerf history) happen for 2 reasons. Either to destroy a broken combo (Aviana, or because this particular card was extremely overpowered, the turn it was played (Spiteful Summoner, Giggling Inventor) DON'T change stats. It's irrelevant. It's not played for stats and it's not like it has Taunt or anything similar. Stats changes happen to cards that can exploit their stats for oppressive board control (Corridor Creeper). DON'T for the love of god IN ANY CASE revert it, so that the hero power will cost (1). It's uncreative and it will simply destroy the archetype. Remember when it happened, the archetype disappeared. Why? Simply because it was not worth it to play a deck that involves around investing resources on 2 particular cards, in order to do mediocre damage.
The only possible change that could actually make the deck harder, without destroying the archetype is Raza the Chained : 5 mana5/5. Battlecry: Your current hero power costs (0) for the rest of the game.
Now players will have to wait for Shadowreaper Anduin, in order to play Raza. Basically Raza will be a dead draw until you have Anduin. Also, players will be faced with the decision, either to play Anduin early on, OR keep him for a good board swipe, OR keep the healing a bit longer. Furthermore, this "combo" will require 2 turns for set-up and 1 for execution. Now, if you are a decent player, you know that sacrificing 2 turns in Wild is suicide. Finally, this change ensures that even with a GODLY HAND, you can't get OTKed before turn 10! That's really slow with Wild Standards!
Boom! There you have it. A viable nerf, that won't destroy the archetype, but it will make it harder to pull off. Eventually the difficulty is increased, which leads to a lower winrate, which results in less people playing the deck.
So, then you may be able to play your pwetty Old Gwad contwol. IF I hwurt your fweewings I am swowy. smh...
It is an interresting change, but I think anything costing 0 mana should require even more setup. Raza priest has actually gotten a LOT of new support since its first versions, so I actually don't think an 1-mana heropower would destroy the archeype. Reverting Anduin to 9 mana is yet another option.
Also, I don't think there is any point to keep an archetype viable at any cost. Old powerhouses get pushed out by even stronger decks all the time, cubelock and even shaman are some recent victims which barely see any play now, I would love to see more traditional midrange decks being more viable in wild, but considering how fast and explosive the BIG decks are these days, it would probably require too many changes.
Wild is never going to be a den of midrange junkfest. We have Standard for such things, if they ever happen. I just don't understand people sometimes. They say nerf Raza but they either propose getting the Hero Power to cost (1), or change the mana cost of cards. BOTH of these options won't solve anything. They will either destroy the archetype, as it happened before, or it won't change anything, apart from making it more difficult to deal with outrageous BIG decks, or aggro decks. Destroying archetypes isn't good, unless they are polarizing the matchmaking. People have many many counters against Raza Priest and honestly, I would quit the game for good (I play only Wild), if they change Raza and they will leave everything else untouched. But, I dont think they'll do it. They are smarter than most of us.
You're all just a bunch of crying banshees. I am playing Wild and I am sick of those who ask for nerf this, nerf that. Gee golly, play Standard if you don't have the stomach. Neither Kingsbane is broken, nor Ressurect Priest. We have all the material to counter those decks. Maybe Secret Mage needs some tinkering, but basically that's it. The worst thing is that somehow everyone cries for Raza. Nerf Raza the Chained wah wah. Honestly, the deck isn't nearly as good as it once was. Now, everyone has counters and it's not brainless material.
MAYBE, it's time to delete your super-greedy decks with 4-5 OLD Gods and start playing something else, more viable?
BUT! Since you wish to see a change. DON'T change the mana cost. This will only make the deck a little bit slower. It's already slow, so you don't actually win anything. It's not like Raza was oppressive on turn 5. Mana cost changes (if you look at nerf history) happen for 2 reasons. Either to destroy a broken combo (Aviana, or because this particular card was extremely overpowered, the turn it was played (Spiteful Summoner, Giggling Inventor) DON'T change stats. It's irrelevant. It's not played for stats and it's not like it has Taunt or anything similar. Stats changes happen to cards that can exploit their stats for oppressive board control (Corridor Creeper). DON'T for the love of god IN ANY CASE revert it, so that the hero power will cost (1). It's uncreative and it will simply destroy the archetype. Remember when it happened, the archetype disappeared. Why? Simply because it was not worth it to play a deck that involves around investing resources on 2 particular cards, in order to do mediocre damage.
The only possible change that could actually make the deck harder, without destroying the archetype is Raza the Chained : 5 mana5/5. Battlecry: Your current hero power costs (0) for the rest of the game.
Now players will have to wait for Shadowreaper Anduin, in order to play Raza. Basically Raza will be a dead draw until you have Anduin. Also, players will be faced with the decision, either to play Anduin early on, OR keep him for a good board swipe, OR keep the healing a bit longer. Furthermore, this "combo" will require 2 turns for set-up and 1 for execution. Now, if you are a decent player, you know that sacrificing 2 turns in Wild is suicide. Finally, this change ensures that even with a GODLY HAND, you can't get OTKed before turn 10! That's really slow with Wild Standards!
Boom! There you have it. A viable nerf, that won't destroy the archetype, but it will make it harder to pull off. Eventually the difficulty is increased, which leads to a lower winrate, which results in less people playing the deck.
So, then you may be able to play your pwetty Old Gwad contwol. IF I hwurt your fweewings I am swowy. smh...
It is an interresting change, but I think anything costing 0 mana should require even more setup. Raza priest has actually gotten a LOT of new support since its first versions, so I actually don't think an 1-mana heropower would destroy the archeype. Reverting Anduin to 9 mana is yet another option.
Also, I don't think there is any point to keep an archetype viable at any cost. Old powerhouses get pushed out by even stronger decks all the time, cubelock and even shaman are some recent victims which barely see any play now, I would love to see more traditional midrange decks being more viable in wild, but considering how fast and explosive the BIG decks are these days, it would probably require too many changes.
your starting hero power costs 0...
done... no more raza priest...
Yeah Einstein. But, destroying archetypes ain't a good thing. Also, this doesn't make sense. What if you already have a different hero power. Low effort thoughts, mate.
Nerf Psychic Scream to 8 or 9, such a devastating card in slower match ups and could at least rein in Priests ability to clear the board (Soul Mirror is fairer anyway).
You're all just a bunch of crying banshees. I am playing Wild and I am sick of those who ask for nerf this, nerf that. Gee golly, play Standard if you don't have the stomach. Neither Kingsbane is broken, nor Ressurect Priest. We have all the material to counter those decks. Maybe Secret Mage needs some tinkering, but basically that's it. The worst thing is that somehow everyone cries for Raza. Nerf Raza the Chained wah wah. Honestly, the deck isn't nearly as good as it once was. Now, everyone has counters and it's not brainless material.
MAYBE, it's time to delete your super-greedy decks with 4-5 OLD Gods and start playing something else, more viable?
alright,so this is actually a fair argument HOWEVER it is also a pretty delicate one.
You say we have ways to deal with most of the "commonly complained about" stuff so let's take a look:
Kingsbane is very strong but we DO have ways to deal with it, heals,clears, weapon removal (weapon steal included) , taunts are relatively common "controlly" cards that can be teched in by reactive decks in order to stand a chance. Other aggressive decks just aim to kill them first and I do think they can since it no longer has lifegain (thanks c'thun). The only real insane part of this deck is the refill/draw/tutor, THAT may be a bit too much but overall...you are right on this one
secret mage is a very similar case to kingsbane but even more powerful and relatively fewer tech cards, the solutions are the same, although as you said this one may be TOO good at what it does and so may be in need of a nerf. My suggestion would be on the card draw, just like kingsbane
Big priest...well it can still highroll you to oblivion like almost no other deck can but good transform effects can go a long way whether you are trying to control him or smorc him down so (again) this one is ok
Raza is a whole other beast tho,technically it IS counterable via grizzled/finnely but the fact that you need 2 cards that are borderline useless in any other matchup to HOPEFULLY counter a single deck is quite stupid, and if you don't get them in time you just get run over.
Yes I AM aware that they can remove other insane hero powers but it is 1: situational,only really relevant in heavy control v control which is very rare given the nature of wild 2: you effectively have 2 less cards in your deck, and that can REALLY cost you depending on your opponent 3: that is simply not fun, disruption in general is just toxic and this is coming from the guy that abuses it in order to survive the BS that is wild OTKs/infinite decks )
are there other ways to deal with razanduin?
well it is very hard to "rat down" or similar so that is too inconsistent to be a good enough answer so...no
can you whitstand the burst? no,just no.....ok maybe that's bit much but still you have to remember that EVERY card he plays comes with 2 dmg and spawn of bullshit gives him at least of 24 dmg in a single turn if he's not an idiot, so, assuming Raza was in the bottom 10 cards and he has 5 other cards in hand (so this is WAY lowballed compared to the average time he will get it) you will have to survive 30 dmg from the cards alone (not counting a possible mind blast/velen or similar) + the 4 extra dmg per card from spawn of bullshit going to a total of a single turn 26 burst (assuming only 2 mana cards are played on the spawn turn) from just 4 cards, so you still will have to power through 22 dmg
And this is not counting the fact that he likely has card generation to deal even more dmg
this MAY look somewhat survivable by stuff like odd warrior, a well armored druid or a reno mage with ice block but you have to remember that 1)raza priest has A LOT of draw so you have less time to "prepare" either by armorstacking or getting the cards you need 2) he can easily tech aganst those 2
another way is.....you can always SMORC them down I guess but this goes into the stupid ******** BS that OTK/infinite/mill players use as an excuse but the fact of the matter is that by doing this you are forcing someone to play in a way he doesn't enjoy and that is just bad design no matter how you look at it
your suggested change IS pretty good I'll give you that but you HEAVILY underestimate the power of a 1 mana anduin hero power, the board control,burst and consistent damage is still surprisingly good (although not nearly AS broken)
overall Wild is supposed to have extremely high powerlevel BUT limits should exist otherwise you end up with OTK decks killing you as fast as aggro decks, resurrect focused stuff resummoning full boards for 4 mana and more gigabroken stuff making the game spiral into an unfun shitfest of "whoever draws his BS first wins" since you made everything "unreactable" because you didn't want to nerf obviously broken stuff
one thing that often goes underestimated is that wild also has the widest card pool BY FAR so one of its strongest points should be variety but if 1 or 2 decks are doing their job better than anything else (e.g. good ol' razanduin for control decks) or if something is SO good that the meta becomes "can you survive him" (e.g. pre nerf big priest, current razanduin, "kill you on turn 4" druid, secret mage) that kinda kills the variety making the game way less fun and more repetitive
You're arguements are not even close to be considered arguable. You're talking about scenarios, which in most cases are on the extreme. Obviously Raza Priest will have good match-ups and bad match-ups, like a healthy deck. Obviously, people who complain about Raza Priest, are playing a greedy heavy midrange deck (they usually call it "control" Old God something). But Raza Priest, has also pretty BAD match-ups against any kind of Druid, any Warrior that can get more than 12 armor and aggro decks like Demon Hunter, MAYBE secret mage too. It isn't even the most played deck on Wild ladder. People who complain about this are forever Bronze-Platinum losers, who try to win with their "creative" "non-netdeck" "control" whatever deck. But the same people happen to lose to Kingsbane Rogue more than often, as well as Secret Mage.
Therefore, we shouldn't take seriously what they have to say. Being able to play on diamond and legend consistently, I've observed that people actually don't even tech this abomination of Sir Finley and Grizzard. Why? Either they deem that it's not necessary to secure a win against Raza Priest, or because they don't even face Raza Priests. Which is true. Also, if I get matched with a Priest, I pray he is a Raza Priest, so I can beat the life out of him. Guess what? They are Big Priests 8/10. People who want to climb higher stop playing it THAT much, because it has lower winrate than BIG priest, which is bonkers with the new Blood of G'huun. Also, people usually play Kingsbane and Odd DH and Secret Mage, which means Raza Priest won't have a good time against them.
However, since people want to play their greedy decks, there is a way to make Raza Priest less reliable, with the nerf I proposed.
Quick note after I finished writing: it sounds like I think that raza is the most broken deck in the game, I DO NOT think that, it IS however, a very strong and polarizing deck that forces people into playstyles they don't enjoy (in my case, I hate playing for aggression)
Anyway here are my points.
One of us, either you or me must have gotten lost in my wall of text:
I assume,since you love facing raza priest,that you play either super aggressive decks (so you try to win before he gets his combo off) or some OTK/mill/infinite nonsense that plays for the StRaTeGy of "whoever manages to draw his BS first is clearly the better player so he wins" and that happens to be faster than raza
Anyway how are any of my "scenarios" on the extreme?
I (quite heavily) lowballed the amount of dmg Razanduin can output in a game and even just that is VERY HARD to power through as ANY reactive deck, even the armorstackers have trouble because the machine gun can start way earlier than they are prepared to tank it as raza will most likely have way more draw than them
You can't tell me that raza priest is easy to "dirty rat", it runs too many small minions AND the ""combo"" requires little to no setup meaning raza won't sit in his hand for long
(I assumed you were referring to the parts closely related to raza priest here)
The fact that it has good and bad matchups is kind of irrelevant, quest rogue (e.g.) and many others did that as well without really being the healthiest of decks (in the case of quest rogue it was: obliterate control, get destroyed by aggro)
Anyway the whole concept of a nerf being "needed" starts not only when something is OP, but also when you realize that the whole time you are bashing on people trying to play a style of deck they enjoy and this one dickhead playing raza priest (or any other deck that monstrously counters/outshines others) is telling them "fk you, you can't play what's fun to you"
Now the previous paragraph needs to come with a disclaimer: if some random low rank guy tries to win with his "megagreedy/4oldgods/hypercontrol/homebrew" deck he 100% is going to get an insane reality check and drop to wood 75 in a heartbeat HOWEVER when a deck starts doing that to well optimized ones just because they happen to be,in this case, reactive,then that deck starts being worthy of a nerf ( as discussed earlier, you can't reliably react to raza's burst/consistent dmg, you can try, and even succeed quite a few times but NEVER reliably )
Quick note after I finished writing: it sounds like I think that raza is the most broken deck in the game, I DO NOT think that, it IS however, a very strong and polarizing deck that forces people into playstyles they don't enjoy (in my case, I hate playing for aggression)
Anyway here are my points.
One of us, either you or me must have gotten lost in my wall of text:
I assume,since you love facing raza priest,that you play either super aggressive decks (so you try to win before he gets his combo off) or some OTK/mill/infinite nonsense that plays for the StRaTeGy of "whoever manages to draw his BS first is clearly the better player so he wins" and that happens to be faster than raza
Anyway how are any of my "scenarios" on the extreme?
I (quite heavily) lowballed the amount of dmg Razanduin can output in a game and even just that is VERY HARD to power through as ANY reactive deck, even the armorstackers have trouble because the machine gun can start way earlier than they are prepared to tank it as raza will most likely have way more draw than them
You can't tell me that raza priest is easy to "dirty rat", it runs too many small minions AND the ""combo"" requires little to no setup meaning raza won't sit in his hand for long
(I assumed you were referring to the parts closely related to raza priest here)
The fact that it has good and bad matchups is kind of irrelevant, quest rogue (e.g.) and many others did that as well without really being the healthiest of decks (in the case of quest rogue it was: obliterate control, get destroyed by aggro)
Anyway the whole concept of a nerf being "needed" starts not only when something is OP, but also when you realize that the whole time you are bashing on people trying to play a style of deck they enjoy and this one dickhead playing raza priest (or any other deck that monstrously counters/outshines others) is telling them "fk you, you can't play what's fun to you"
Now the previous paragraph needs to come with a disclaimer: if some random low rank guy tries to win with his "megagreedy/4oldgods/hypercontrol/homebrew" deck he 100% is going to get an insane reality check and drop to wood 75 in a heartbeat HOWEVER when a deck starts doing that to well optimized ones just because they happen to be,in this case, reactive,then that deck starts being worthy of a nerf ( as discussed earlier, you can't reliably react to raza's burst/consistent dmg, you can try, and even succeed quite a few times but NEVER reliably )
Your assumptions are wrong. I play Druid mostly on ladder. Not aggro, but late game Druids that stack-up a hell of armor. WITHOUT having to put in Sir Finley nonsense, Raza Priest can't touch me. However, I struggle against Big Priests. But no matter what I play, Raza Priest is not the top choice on competitive play. MAYBE, it was before DMF, but that's it. After what Tickatus does to control decks, Raza Priest (at it's current form) instantly becomes less playable, which means that EVEN FEWER players will play it. THUS, the new expansion nerfed it.
Now, if you want to play your greedy "control" deck, well I have bad news for you. Not only Raza Priest, but also every Tier 1 deck will stomp you. Maybe you tend to have more weaknesses against Raza Priest, but that's not the case for Tier 1 meta decks, or even some Tier 2, like the Druid decks I play.
The solution is simple. Maybe leave your favorite greedy "control" Double Zoth, creative deck aside for a while?
I don't understand what some of you are talking about.
"But Raza Priest, has also pretty BAD match-ups against any kind of Druid, any Warrior that can get more than 12 armor and aggro decks like Demon Hunter, MAYBE secret mage too. It isn't even the most played deck on Wild ladder."
I am still sitting on a 75% winrate as a Raza Priest main after over 1 year and haven't lost to a single odd dh in the last 86 days (yes, I actually checked this). Raza priest is by faaaaaaaaaaar the best anti-aggro deck in tier 1. I only lost to secret mage, odd midrange paladin, and one mirror in the last 50 days. Secret mage is a terrible matchup unless you draw the absoulte nuts as Raza priest or they miss their first 2 turns/or every counterspell (which basically never happens). Warrior and armor/OTK druid are quite difficult, I give you that, but they are like 5% of ladder right now. Token druid is an auto-win if you mulligan for the anti-aggro tools of your deck, which you absolutely should when you see a druid because you have time against armor but don't want to lose to tokens because of a bad mulligan decision and OTK druid requires too specific answers to dig for them.
And I haven't seen a single Tickatus in wild yet. It seems pretty slow for wild standards, even in renolock.
Turn 1 Rigged Faire Game is still a problem, though. Secret mage needs at least 2 nerfs.
Turn 1 Rigged Faire Game is still a problem, though. Secret mage needs at least 2 nerfs.
Rigged Faire Game is a problem in general. If you go for board he will draw cards and its gg...if you go for face to not rigger the secret you will die from board very quick and its gg because all of the 0 mana synergies that one just cant keep up in tempo.
Beside that i dont have mayne problems with any wild deck.
I wouldnt mind if they could remove the "Taunt" from Blood of G'huun tho :)
I find it hard to believe you can survive Razanduin's burst no problem however I WILL try to trust you on that one (I would like to know what you mean by "lategame druid" tho
What you are quite monstrously wrong about however is that the best decks in wild can beat my decks, I can deal with any non OTK/mill/infinite focused deck just fine (raza priest and retardtus fall into one of these 3 categories) with most if not all my decks. For reference I play: (I reached at least diamond 10 with each one of these)
1) a "reno valuewok" shaman that plays shudder once but it fully heals,clears the board,leaves a big body AND fills your hand. It farms big priest via a sea of transform effects and it can beat any aggro/midrange deck with heals and boardclears of all shapes and sizes
2)reno mage with a focus on surviving and transform effects (again)
3)control/ODD/(un goro)quest/ODD quest Warrior I don't have to go into detail as to why these boys win the aggro matchups, I put sylas+tinkmaster to hold off big priest (and I can assure you that ODD WARRIOR's armorgain was not enough to survive Razanduin)
4)stupid versions of (un goro)quest priest but this One doesn't count as it's Pretty bad
None of these fall into "megagreedy multin'zoth" stuff, they only lose to well made midrange decks (aka the one archetipe that should beat control,not the retardedness that are OTK/mill/infinite decks that shouldn't even exists)
Still you are ignoring the fact that a deck or archetype that tells someone "fk you,you can't play what's fun to you" to someone playing a legit deck (like any of the ones I listed are) is a horrible design no matter how you look at it
I find it hard to believe you can survive Razanduin's burst no problem however I WILL try to trust you on that one (I would like to know what you mean by "lategame druid" tho
What you are quite monstrously wrong about however is that the best decks in wild can beat my decks, I can deal with any non OTK/mill/infinite focused deck just fine (raza priest and retardtus fall into one of these 3 categories) with most if not all my decks. For reference I play: (I reached at least diamond 10 with each one of these)
1) a "reno valuewok" shaman that plays shudder once but it fully heals,clears the board,leaves a big body AND fills your hand. It farms big priest via a sea of transform effects and it can beat any aggro/midrange deck with heals and boardclears of all shapes and sizes
2)reno mage with a focus on surviving and transform effects (again)
3)control/ODD/(un goro)quest/ODD quest Warrior I don't have to go into detail as to why these boys win the aggro matchups, I put sylas+tinkmaster to hold off big priest (and I can assure you that ODD WARRIOR's armorgain was not enough to survive Razanduin)
4)stupid versions of (un goro)quest priest but this One doesn't count as it's Pretty bad
None of these fall into "megagreedy multin'zoth" stuff, they only lose to well made midrange decks (aka the one archetipe that should beat control,not the retardedness that are OTK/mill/infinite decks that shouldn't even exists)
Still you are ignoring the fact that a deck or archetype that tells someone "fk you,you can't play what's fun to you" to someone playing a legit deck (like any of the ones I listed are) is a horrible design no matter how you look at it
Pretty sure they mean armor-heavy druid with some sort of late game win condition like Jade Idol, Hadronox/Nzoth, DK fatigue, or even Togwaggle.
Regarding your decks, and especially odd warrior, from my Raza priest perspective, these matchups depend a lot on how fast you can get to Anduin, and even more so on how many cards you have left because Anduin's burst is limited, so you either have to use other forms of pressure on them (Zephrys, Kazakus can get options, for instance), or increase the burst to maximum without destroying yourself. Sometimes it's best to pick a 1-cost potion for Spawn, sometimes the 8 damage from 10-mana potion is better. Since I haven't seen too many odd warriors lately, I wonder if they still play the 3-cost spell that destroys their armor to clear the board. The timing of that card alone can tremendously change the outcome of this matchup. It is possible to fully armor outside of range, I have seen that against a druid some months ago. But one of the reasons why they managed to do that was because they put some mild pressure on me, so I had to throw away some cards that could have been used as additional burst later in the game and that's an issue with odd warrior because they seem to lack this kind of pressure. Getting 4 armor per turn is nice and all, but you only have to play 1 card as Anduin to negate that. Also, as a general tipp in this matchup for Raza priest, copying Pen Flinger with your 2-cost spell seems like a strange move but this can win the game.
The key to beat Reno mage is to trigger Ice Block and make them play the healing Reno without giving up too much of your OTK combo potential. Shudderwock is a cool deck imo but you need to play your Reno early to have Shudderwok unlocked and I don't see you healing too much over 30 unless you play the slow hostage armor variant, so this is pretty easily winnable for Raza priest. I am also not sure if Shudderwok is a legit deck in wild right now.
Regarding your last point, imagine a format where a good combo deck is considered a legit deck that you like playing. Would you rather have this deck rule over all the greed piles or would you like to see an aggro list that is not good against those greed piles but says f u to the combo deck and thus keeps it in check? I don't like aggro at all but even my answer would be clear. Also, I am pretty sure that some people liked Jade Idol and then they printed a single card that single-handedly screws this deck AND any other combo deck with 1-cost spells. So design-wise, this is pretty common (also in other card games, I have played a lot of them). The marketing strategy is "print something that is crazy good so people buy, then print something that counters it so people buy".
Regarding your last point, imagine a format where a good combo deck is considered a legit deck that you like playing. Would you rather have this deck rule over all the greed piles or would you like to see an aggro list that is not good against those greed piles but says f u to the combo deck and thus keeps it in check? I don't like aggro at all but even my answer would be clear. Also, I am pretty sure that some people liked Jade Idol and then they printed a single card that single-handedly screws this deck AND any other combo deck with 1-cost spells. So design-wise, this is pretty common (also in other card games, I have played a lot of them). The marketing strategy is "print something that is crazy good so people buy, then print something that counters it so people buy".
you're looking at it with the wrong mindset:
the fact that an OTK/mill/infinite deck trivializes the matchup against an entire archetype IS THE PROBLEM,even moreso if they get destroyed just as much by another one. That is simply toxic for the game, it makes playing out an actual game with them as one of these 2 archetypes almost a formality...and NO other archetype does that. Good and bad mathcups should exists don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between that and "oh cool, free stars"
There ARE actual healthy ways to keep control decks in check and they are midrange decks like deathrattle/DKrexxar hunter, THAT is how you counter reactive decks: big threats coming one after the other is cleared (or close to) and most of them are quite sticky BUT if you play near perfect and/or they mess up and/or (dare I say) you get slightly lucky, you CAN power through all the BS and win
Other options would be big priest, hadronox druid,cubelock (maybe not with the 5/6 doomgards "near OTK")
for the record I always generally enjoyed playing vs rexxar and the other decks I listed when they are not OP like big priest (obviously with exeptions going from "yes,that was fun" to "delete this BS" depending on the list they run)
I support tentative Wild nerfs to address the most powerful decks in Wild, but I think a lot of people want a large number of changes, when that's just not necessary.
Problem Deck - Raza Priest: Change either Raza to set the cost to (1), no other part of that card is relevant. That, or change the Hero Power on the Priest DK to be completely different, that design was a mistake anyway. Or delete Priest from the game
Problem Deck - Secret Mage: They shouldn't have access to free secrets, imo. Kabal Lackey should reduce the cost to (1) for that secret and become a turn 2 play instead of a turn 1 play. Kirin-Tor Mage should have the same text. Cloudprince should either deal less damage or not damage face.
Problem Deck - Odd Paladin: Simply changing the cost of some overpowered synergies to be even so the deck can't play them. To be honest I don't see Odd Paly so much, and it doesn't evoke as hateful a reaction from me so I don't remember much of their deck.
Ultimately what I want out of Blizzard isn't nerfs and card changes (aside from addressing Priest), I want meaningfully powerful cards and counterplay printed for other classes. If every class had a deck in Wild that was as powerful as these, it would be less of an issue. We need more powerful Secret hate, we need effective silence. Something. It's a digital card game, there's more ways to change a meta than nerfs and buffs.
I don't believe Raza or Shadowreaper should be nerfed.
Before Lorekeeper Polkelt was made, the deck was good but not as oppressive to get its combo online as it is today. It took about as long as any other OTK deck like Malygos Druid, Exodia Mage, ect.
I have a personal hatred of Lorekeeper Polkelt. It is unnatural, and it has NO place in a card game like this. Rearranging your entire deck in an order that suits you is just cheating and defeats the point of the game.
The effect is just too game-changing, and I can guarantee you he will create some more broken shenanigans in the future. Every expansion they make, they will have to do so with Polkelt in mind. He limits design.
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For Secret Mage - it's hard to target because there is no one problem card. It's a collection of cards that synergize so well together that you can't do anything to them. Play a minion? Explosive Runes. Play a spell? Counterspell.
But it's not the secrets that are the problem. If you nerf one of those, they will just create more secrets in upcoming expansions and we are back to where we are.
Honestly the problem with secret mage is just the ability to cheat them out for free. If mage was forced to pay 3 mana, the deck would be so much less oppressive because it wouldn't be able to set up minions that get covered by secret protection so early in the game. Kabal lackey, kirin tor mage and mad scientist are, imo, the entire reason why the deck is so oppressive. 1 mana 2/1 which sets up a turn 1 rigged fair games that most decks are unable to react to is pure horse shit. Flakmage is powerful, but if you had to pay 3 mana to use the effect it's fine.
Secret mage currently has no bad matchups, it's green across the board. It's a huge issue.
Man i dont know what i would nerf, but something about Secret Mage has to be done!
I hate how i cant play 9 of my 10 decks, because i will lose 100% to Mage. Even if i start well, i just lose when i dont draw good 2 times in a row in mid or late game.
On the other hand, nothing a Secret Mage draws is wrong, everything just synergizes so well.
Imo Rigged Faire Game is the card that makes it so strong, it allows you to empty your hand without thinking. In this way you create strong board presence without having to care about drawing.
In my last 50 games i faced 31% Secret Mages...the wild meta would be great if mage wouldnt be so oppressive. With quiet a lot of decks, inclusive meme decks i can have a balst against all classes having a balanced win-loo ratio. Mages are just destroying it....:(
1. grizzled/finnely combo is useful in a lot of matchups. It's good against all odd decks aswell (especially paladin).
2. Raza is fine. It doesn't do much until you get Anduin out which is an 8 Mana card with no way to play it earlier than on turn 7 with coin. Malygod druids pretty often have their full OTK as soon as Turn 5-6 with mana ramp. And don't even let me get started about the borderline unfair stuff decks like Big Priest or Darkglare Warlock can cheat out way before turn 8. 2-4 Giants + Loatheb on turn 5 is happening on a regular basis.
Just had an interesting Raza thought: instead of "Costs 0" or "Costs 1" how about "Costs 1 less". That way, if you find a means to play it twice (Seance, Brewmaster, etc), you'll get the 0-cost hero power, but only playing once is the nerfed 1-cost version.
Wild is never going to be a den of midrange junkfest. We have Standard for such things, if they ever happen. I just don't understand people sometimes. They say nerf Raza but they either propose getting the Hero Power to cost (1), or change the mana cost of cards. BOTH of these options won't solve anything. They will either destroy the archetype, as it happened before, or it won't change anything, apart from making it more difficult to deal with outrageous BIG decks, or aggro decks. Destroying archetypes isn't good, unless they are polarizing the matchmaking. People have many many counters against Raza Priest and honestly, I would quit the game for good (I play only Wild), if they change Raza and they will leave everything else untouched. But, I dont think they'll do it. They are smarter than most of us.
Yeah Einstein. But, destroying archetypes ain't a good thing. Also, this doesn't make sense. What if you already have a different hero power. Low effort thoughts, mate.
Nerf Psychic Scream to 8 or 9, such a devastating card in slower match ups and could at least rein in Priests ability to clear the board (Soul Mirror is fairer anyway).
You're arguements are not even close to be considered arguable. You're talking about scenarios, which in most cases are on the extreme. Obviously Raza Priest will have good match-ups and bad match-ups, like a healthy deck. Obviously, people who complain about Raza Priest, are playing a greedy heavy midrange deck (they usually call it "control" Old God something). But Raza Priest, has also pretty BAD match-ups against any kind of Druid, any Warrior that can get more than 12 armor and aggro decks like Demon Hunter, MAYBE secret mage too. It isn't even the most played deck on Wild ladder. People who complain about this are forever Bronze-Platinum losers, who try to win with their "creative" "non-netdeck" "control" whatever deck. But the same people happen to lose to Kingsbane Rogue more than often, as well as Secret Mage.
Therefore, we shouldn't take seriously what they have to say. Being able to play on diamond and legend consistently, I've observed that people actually don't even tech this abomination of Sir Finley and Grizzard. Why? Either they deem that it's not necessary to secure a win against Raza Priest, or because they don't even face Raza Priests. Which is true. Also, if I get matched with a Priest, I pray he is a Raza Priest, so I can beat the life out of him. Guess what? They are Big Priests 8/10. People who want to climb higher stop playing it THAT much, because it has lower winrate than BIG priest, which is bonkers with the new Blood of G'huun. Also, people usually play Kingsbane and Odd DH and Secret Mage, which means Raza Priest won't have a good time against them.
However, since people want to play their greedy decks, there is a way to make Raza Priest less reliable, with the nerf I proposed.
Quick note after I finished writing: it sounds like I think that raza is the most broken deck in the game, I DO NOT think that, it IS however, a very strong and polarizing deck that forces people into playstyles they don't enjoy (in my case, I hate playing for aggression)
Anyway here are my points.
One of us, either you or me must have gotten lost in my wall of text:
I assume,since you love facing raza priest,that you play either super aggressive decks (so you try to win before he gets his combo off) or some OTK/mill/infinite nonsense that plays for the StRaTeGy of "whoever manages to draw his BS first is clearly the better player so he wins" and that happens to be faster than raza
Anyway how are any of my "scenarios" on the extreme?
I (quite heavily) lowballed the amount of dmg Razanduin can output in a game and even just that is VERY HARD to power through as ANY reactive deck, even the armorstackers have trouble because the machine gun can start way earlier than they are prepared to tank it as raza will most likely have way more draw than them
You can't tell me that raza priest is easy to "dirty rat", it runs too many small minions AND the ""combo"" requires little to no setup meaning raza won't sit in his hand for long
(I assumed you were referring to the parts closely related to raza priest here)
The fact that it has good and bad matchups is kind of irrelevant, quest rogue (e.g.) and many others did that as well without really being the healthiest of decks (in the case of quest rogue it was: obliterate control, get destroyed by aggro)
Anyway the whole concept of a nerf being "needed" starts not only when something is OP, but also when you realize that the whole time you are bashing on people trying to play a style of deck they enjoy and this one dickhead playing raza priest (or any other deck that monstrously counters/outshines others) is telling them "fk you, you can't play what's fun to you"
Now the previous paragraph needs to come with a disclaimer: if some random low rank guy tries to win with his "megagreedy/4oldgods/hypercontrol/homebrew" deck he 100% is going to get an insane reality check and drop to wood 75 in a heartbeat HOWEVER when a deck starts doing that to well optimized ones just because they happen to be,in this case, reactive,then that deck starts being worthy of a nerf ( as discussed earlier, you can't reliably react to raza's burst/consistent dmg, you can try, and even succeed quite a few times but NEVER reliably )
some of yall's nerf ideas are just "I hate this archtype/deck make it bad" I don't personally think that is how you should balance a game.
what.
Your assumptions are wrong. I play Druid mostly on ladder. Not aggro, but late game Druids that stack-up a hell of armor. WITHOUT having to put in Sir Finley nonsense, Raza Priest can't touch me. However, I struggle against Big Priests. But no matter what I play, Raza Priest is not the top choice on competitive play. MAYBE, it was before DMF, but that's it. After what Tickatus does to control decks, Raza Priest (at it's current form) instantly becomes less playable, which means that EVEN FEWER players will play it. THUS, the new expansion nerfed it.
Now, if you want to play your greedy "control" deck, well I have bad news for you. Not only Raza Priest, but also every Tier 1 deck will stomp you. Maybe you tend to have more weaknesses against Raza Priest, but that's not the case for Tier 1 meta decks, or even some Tier 2, like the Druid decks I play.
The solution is simple. Maybe leave your favorite greedy "control" Double Zoth, creative deck aside for a while?
I don't understand what some of you are talking about.
"But Raza Priest, has also pretty BAD match-ups against any kind of Druid, any Warrior that can get more than 12 armor and aggro decks like Demon Hunter, MAYBE secret mage too. It isn't even the most played deck on Wild ladder."
I am still sitting on a 75% winrate as a Raza Priest main after over 1 year and haven't lost to a single odd dh in the last 86 days (yes, I actually checked this). Raza priest is by faaaaaaaaaaar the best anti-aggro deck in tier 1. I only lost to secret mage, odd midrange paladin, and one mirror in the last 50 days. Secret mage is a terrible matchup unless you draw the absoulte nuts as Raza priest or they miss their first 2 turns/or every counterspell (which basically never happens). Warrior and armor/OTK druid are quite difficult, I give you that, but they are like 5% of ladder right now. Token druid is an auto-win if you mulligan for the anti-aggro tools of your deck, which you absolutely should when you see a druid because you have time against armor but don't want to lose to tokens because of a bad mulligan decision and OTK druid requires too specific answers to dig for them.
And I haven't seen a single Tickatus in wild yet. It seems pretty slow for wild standards, even in renolock.
Turn 1 Rigged Faire Game is still a problem, though. Secret mage needs at least 2 nerfs.
Rigged Faire Game is a problem in general. If you go for board he will draw cards and its gg...if you go for face to not rigger the secret you will die from board very quick and its gg because all of the 0 mana synergies that one just cant keep up in tempo.
Beside that i dont have mayne problems with any wild deck.
I wouldnt mind if they could remove the "Taunt" from Blood of G'huun tho :)
I find it hard to believe you can survive Razanduin's burst no problem however I WILL try to trust you on that one (I would like to know what you mean by "lategame druid" tho
What you are quite monstrously wrong about however is that the best decks in wild can beat my decks, I can deal with any non OTK/mill/infinite focused deck just fine (raza priest and retardtus fall into one of these 3 categories) with most if not all my decks. For reference I play: (I reached at least diamond 10 with each one of these)
1) a "reno valuewok" shaman that plays shudder once but it fully heals,clears the board,leaves a big body AND fills your hand. It farms big priest via a sea of transform effects and it can beat any aggro/midrange deck with heals and boardclears of all shapes and sizes
2)reno mage with a focus on surviving and transform effects (again)
3)control/ODD/(un goro)quest/ODD quest Warrior I don't have to go into detail as to why these boys win the aggro matchups, I put sylas+tinkmaster to hold off big priest (and I can assure you that ODD WARRIOR's armorgain was not enough to survive Razanduin)
4)stupid versions of (un goro)quest priest but this One doesn't count as it's Pretty bad
None of these fall into "megagreedy multin'zoth" stuff, they only lose to well made midrange decks (aka the one archetipe that should beat control,not the retardedness that are OTK/mill/infinite decks that shouldn't even exists)
Still you are ignoring the fact that a deck or archetype that tells someone "fk you,you can't play what's fun to you" to someone playing a legit deck (like any of the ones I listed are) is a horrible design no matter how you look at it
Good, fuck that card and fire whoever came up with that
Pretty sure they mean armor-heavy druid with some sort of late game win condition like Jade Idol, Hadronox/Nzoth, DK fatigue, or even Togwaggle.
Regarding your decks, and especially odd warrior, from my Raza priest perspective, these matchups depend a lot on how fast you can get to Anduin, and even more so on how many cards you have left because Anduin's burst is limited, so you either have to use other forms of pressure on them (Zephrys, Kazakus can get options, for instance), or increase the burst to maximum without destroying yourself. Sometimes it's best to pick a 1-cost potion for Spawn, sometimes the 8 damage from 10-mana potion is better. Since I haven't seen too many odd warriors lately, I wonder if they still play the 3-cost spell that destroys their armor to clear the board. The timing of that card alone can tremendously change the outcome of this matchup. It is possible to fully armor outside of range, I have seen that against a druid some months ago. But one of the reasons why they managed to do that was because they put some mild pressure on me, so I had to throw away some cards that could have been used as additional burst later in the game and that's an issue with odd warrior because they seem to lack this kind of pressure. Getting 4 armor per turn is nice and all, but you only have to play 1 card as Anduin to negate that. Also, as a general tipp in this matchup for Raza priest, copying Pen Flinger with your 2-cost spell seems like a strange move but this can win the game.
The key to beat Reno mage is to trigger Ice Block and make them play the healing Reno without giving up too much of your OTK combo potential. Shudderwock is a cool deck imo but you need to play your Reno early to have Shudderwok unlocked and I don't see you healing too much over 30 unless you play the slow hostage armor variant, so this is pretty easily winnable for Raza priest. I am also not sure if Shudderwok is a legit deck in wild right now.
Regarding your last point, imagine a format where a good combo deck is considered a legit deck that you like playing. Would you rather have this deck rule over all the greed piles or would you like to see an aggro list that is not good against those greed piles but says f u to the combo deck and thus keeps it in check? I don't like aggro at all but even my answer would be clear. Also, I am pretty sure that some people liked Jade Idol and then they printed a single card that single-handedly screws this deck AND any other combo deck with 1-cost spells. So design-wise, this is pretty common (also in other card games, I have played a lot of them). The marketing strategy is "print something that is crazy good so people buy, then print something that counters it so people buy".
you're looking at it with the wrong mindset:
the fact that an OTK/mill/infinite deck trivializes the matchup against an entire archetype IS THE PROBLEM,even moreso if they get destroyed just as much by another one. That is simply toxic for the game, it makes playing out an actual game with them as one of these 2 archetypes almost a formality...and NO other archetype does that. Good and bad mathcups should exists don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between that and "oh cool, free stars"
There ARE actual healthy ways to keep control decks in check and they are midrange decks like deathrattle/DKrexxar hunter, THAT is how you counter reactive decks: big threats coming one after the other is cleared (or close to) and most of them are quite sticky BUT if you play near perfect and/or they mess up and/or (dare I say) you get slightly lucky, you CAN power through all the BS and win
Other options would be big priest, hadronox druid,cubelock (maybe not with the 5/6 doomgards "near OTK")
for the record I always generally enjoyed playing vs rexxar and the other decks I listed when they are not OP like big priest (obviously with exeptions going from "yes,that was fun" to "delete this BS" depending on the list they run)
I support tentative Wild nerfs to address the most powerful decks in Wild, but I think a lot of people want a large number of changes, when that's just not necessary.
Problem Deck - Raza Priest: Change either Raza to set the cost to (1), no other part of that card is relevant. That, or change the Hero Power on the Priest DK to be completely different, that design was a mistake anyway.
Or delete Priest from the gameProblem Deck - Secret Mage: They shouldn't have access to free secrets, imo. Kabal Lackey should reduce the cost to (1) for that secret and become a turn 2 play instead of a turn 1 play. Kirin-Tor Mage should have the same text. Cloudprince should either deal less damage or not damage face.
Problem Deck - Odd Paladin: Simply changing the cost of some overpowered synergies to be even so the deck can't play them. To be honest I don't see Odd Paly so much, and it doesn't evoke as hateful a reaction from me so I don't remember much of their deck.
Ultimately what I want out of Blizzard isn't nerfs and card changes (aside from addressing Priest), I want meaningfully powerful cards and counterplay printed for other classes. If every class had a deck in Wild that was as powerful as these, it would be less of an issue. We need more powerful Secret hate, we need effective silence. Something. It's a digital card game, there's more ways to change a meta than nerfs and buffs.
please don't bully my son
I don't believe Raza or Shadowreaper should be nerfed.
Before Lorekeeper Polkelt was made, the deck was good but not as oppressive to get its combo online as it is today. It took about as long as any other OTK deck like Malygos Druid, Exodia Mage, ect.
I have a personal hatred of Lorekeeper Polkelt. It is unnatural, and it has NO place in a card game like this. Rearranging your entire deck in an order that suits you is just cheating and defeats the point of the game.
The effect is just too game-changing, and I can guarantee you he will create some more broken shenanigans in the future. Every expansion they make, they will have to do so with Polkelt in mind. He limits design.
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For Secret Mage - it's hard to target because there is no one problem card. It's a collection of cards that synergize so well together that you can't do anything to them. Play a minion? Explosive Runes. Play a spell? Counterspell.
But it's not the secrets that are the problem. If you nerf one of those, they will just create more secrets in upcoming expansions and we are back to where we are.
The biggest issues are Cloud Prince + Arcane Flakmage.
Nerf the daylight out of these two cards, and for the love of god, stop creating new secret-synergy minions. Every. Single. Expansion.
The deck would still be playable, as it has been for years now.
Honestly the problem with secret mage is just the ability to cheat them out for free. If mage was forced to pay 3 mana, the deck would be so much less oppressive because it wouldn't be able to set up minions that get covered by secret protection so early in the game. Kabal lackey, kirin tor mage and mad scientist are, imo, the entire reason why the deck is so oppressive. 1 mana 2/1 which sets up a turn 1 rigged fair games that most decks are unable to react to is pure horse shit. Flakmage is powerful, but if you had to pay 3 mana to use the effect it's fine.
Secret mage currently has no bad matchups, it's green across the board. It's a huge issue.
Man i dont know what i would nerf, but something about Secret Mage has to be done!
I hate how i cant play 9 of my 10 decks, because i will lose 100% to Mage. Even if i start well, i just lose when i dont draw good 2 times in a row in mid or late game.
On the other hand, nothing a Secret Mage draws is wrong, everything just synergizes so well.
Imo Rigged Faire Game is the card that makes it so strong, it allows you to empty your hand without thinking. In this way you create strong board presence without having to care about drawing.
In my last 50 games i faced 31% Secret Mages...the wild meta would be great if mage wouldnt be so oppressive. With quiet a lot of decks, inclusive meme decks i can have a balst against all classes having a balanced win-loo ratio. Mages are just destroying it....:(
1. grizzled/finnely combo is useful in a lot of matchups. It's good against all odd decks aswell (especially paladin).
2. Raza is fine. It doesn't do much until you get Anduin out which is an 8 Mana card with no way to play it earlier than on turn 7 with coin. Malygod druids pretty often have their full OTK as soon as Turn 5-6 with mana ramp. And don't even let me get started about the borderline unfair stuff decks like Big Priest or Darkglare Warlock can cheat out way before turn 8. 2-4 Giants + Loatheb on turn 5 is happening on a regular basis.
Just had an interesting Raza thought: instead of "Costs 0" or "Costs 1" how about "Costs 1 less". That way, if you find a means to play it twice (Seance, Brewmaster, etc), you'll get the 0-cost hero power, but only playing once is the nerfed 1-cost version.