Gosh I was wondering what everybody was talking about then I realized this thread is ancient. It's funny, I just had a run-in with mage right now and was having a similar thought. Mozaki, Master Duelist itself seems extremely powerful, and with the amount of Mana cheat that Mage has received recently have made them absolutely insane - and Freeze being a mechanic that creates a huge lack of interactivity, makes winning extremely difficult for decks that have a board-centric win condition (most of them).
What could be done I'm not sure. They can't remove the Freeze keyword. They can't just mass-errata things like Conjure Mana Biscuit or Sorcerer's Apprentice. I guess the only solution is to print more cards that can help overcome the issue.
Sorcerer's Apprentice is already for a long time card that should be changed, counting all of mages freezes, damage spells, discovery spells, draws sustain with Ice Block it is too much. Eater of Secrets and that flaming elemental that makes your board unfreezeable are not good techs. While Ice Block and freezes help against most decks, these two helps only against this... and they are pretty bad anyway (they are tech in the end). Ice Block and freezes are bad design for a game with no instant interaction. It skips your turn, and with mage draws, they always have everything when they need.
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"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
Gosh I was wondering what everybody was talking about then I realized this thread is ancient. It's funny, I just had a run-in with mage right now and was having a similar thought. Mozaki, Master Duelist itself seems extremely powerful, and with the amount of Mana cheat that Mage has received recently have made them absolutely insane - and Freeze being a mechanic that creates a huge lack of interactivity, makes winning extremely difficult for decks that have a board-centric win condition (most of them).
What could be done I'm not sure. They can't remove the Freeze keyword. They can't just mass-errata things like Conjure Mana Biscuit or Sorcerer's Apprentice. I guess the only solution is to print more cards that can help overcome the issue.
Sorcerer's Apprentice is already for a long time card that should be changed, counting all of mages freezes, damage spells, discovery spells, draws sustain with Ice Block it is too much. Eater of Secrets and that flaming elemental that makes your board unfreezeable are not good techs. While Ice Block and freezes help against most decks, these two helps only against this... and they are pretty bad anyway (they are tech in the end). Ice Block and freezes are bad design for a game with no instant interaction. It skips your turn, and with mage draws, they always have everything when they need.
Refreshing Spring Water is really the star of that deck, if that gets nerfed, the deck should slow down to be more in line with other combo decks.
I just figured out how to beat them, and it is with Far Watch Post, Loatheb and Cult Neophyte. Also remember the deck has basically no removal, and can only freeze, not kill.
You have 30hp and 3 minions on the board, the mage still kills you turn 6 from empty board np. Of course it's oppressive. And before that it was (and still is) secret mage, and before that it was quest mage. There are some smoothbrain employee at Blizz who clearly love mage way too much.
Secret mage has been the best wild deck for effing ages ... they do NOTHING, 70% win rate tempo is fiiiine. Lets even give them some more broken archtypes to make your muligan a 50/50 gamble, why not.
No joke, this post is 1 year old and never stopped being relevant ...
You have 30hp and 3 minions on the board, the mage still kills you turn 6 from empty board np. Of course it's oppressive. And before that it was (and still is) secret mage, and before that it was quest mage. There are some smoothbrain employee at Blizz who clearly love mage way too much.
Secret mage has been the best wild deck for effing ages ... they do NOTHING, 70% win rate tempo is fiiiine. Lets even give them some more broken archtypes to make your muligan a 50/50 gamble, why not.
No joke, this post is 1 year old and never stopped being relevant ...
I hear ya - Im to the point where Mage in Wild is an instant concede. Theres nothing you can against zero costs cards, unlimited card draw and spell damage that stacks up. Like, Game 4-6 its over. You cant even play many minions or get anything going since they just remove them. Zero cost cards MUST not be allowed in this game any longer. 1 mana is the minimum. No matter what.
Problem with Mage is that their spells cost 0 mana.
Aggro Secret Mage has 0 mana secrets while other classes secrets have a mana cost.
OTK Mage deck number 14098 has 0 mana spells when playing Sorcerer's Apprentice, a card as old as Hearthstone itself.
Iksar has a massive boner for Secret Mage, so it probably won't be touched.
But they can at least beat Sorcerer's Apprentice to a bloody pulp. This is the culprit. If they nerfed something like Flamewalker or Mozaki or Antonidas, that does nothing as long as Apprentice is the way it is.
And Refreshing Spring Water is just stupid. Every expansion, card draw gets cheaper and cheaper and we have legitimately reached the point where we now have 0 mana card draw.
If anyone ever played Yugioh, you would know why 0 mana card draw is a retarded idea. Pot of Greed was the most broken card ever made. There was never a reason not to play it.
I don't have an issue with Secret Mage. Even in Wild you can figure that they're probably playing the typical suite of the best secrets in the game and play into them as much as you can (in ways that aren't overly detrimental to you) to disable their Medivh's Valet and Cloud Prince triggers (and Occult Conjurer). If you're playing the right deck, even without specific tech, Secret Mage isn't always an issue as long as you mulligan and play into Secret Mage specifically when Mage pulls up.
And since you can never mulligan/play into any form of OTK Mage I think that's whatcha always do. Now clearly there is no foolproof way to beat Secret Mage all the time or else it wouldn't be as good as it is. But Even Hunter and Even Paladin, in my own personal experience, work pretty well.
And since you can never mulligan/play into any form of OTK Mage I think that's whatcha always do. Now clearly there is no foolproof way to beat Secret Mage all the time or else it wouldn't be as good as it is. But Even Hunter and Even Paladin, in my own personal experience, work pretty well.
Metas do not work like that.
Even Hunter and Even Paladin do not exist within the meta, not in Diamond and Legend. I can legitimately say I have not seen any of these played in the last 3 months, probably longer.
Obviously in the the tens of thousands of players in Hearthstone there is someone playing them, but not enough to have a counterweight on the win rate of Secret Mage.
Iksar has a hard-on for Secret Mage, he has said it is his all-time favourite deck which is why Mage secrets cost 0 mana and they create more Secret support each expansion.
It has reached the point where there is no single card which is problematic. They could nerf one of Secret Mage's cards, two of them or possibly even three and it would still be a Tier 1 deck.
I just was obliterated by an APM Wild Mage with a full board of Totems and a Sea Giant by turn 5. My opponent played his entire deck and killed me with 1 Sorcerer's Apprentice and two Flamewakers. No problem here.
And since you can never mulligan/play into any form of OTK Mage I think that's whatcha always do. Now clearly there is no foolproof way to beat Secret Mage all the time or else it wouldn't be as good as it is. But Even Hunter and Even Paladin, in my own personal experience, work pretty well.
Metas do not work like that.
Even Hunter and Even Paladin do not exist within the meta, not in Diamond and Legend. I can legitimately say I have not seen any of these played in the last 3 months, probably longer.
Obviously in the the tens of thousands of players in Hearthstone there is someone playing them, but not enough to have a counterweight on the win rate of Secret Mage.
Iksar has a hard-on for Secret Mage, he has said it is his all-time favourite deck which is why Mage secrets cost 0 mana and they create more Secret support each expansion.
It has reached the point where there is no single card which is problematic. They could nerf one of Secret Mage's cards, two of them or possibly even three and it would still be a Tier 1 deck.
I know all that. I'm playing Even Paladin and just made it to Diamond for the second time. Even Hunter got me to Diamond the first time. I'm aware that it's not a real snapshot of a meta or anything like that (there's a word that's escaping me, it's when somebody uses like 1 moment of personal experience as an argument for something - which is basically what I was doing EDIT: it's Anecdotal Evidence). I wasn't really trying to make a case or whatever, just testifying that I've had a lot of wins against Secret Mages with these two decks for some reason or another.
Because of this, I don't have a problem with Secret Mage, even fundamentally. It's far more beatable and "fair" (in Wild is any tier 1 deck really fair?) than any of Mages relevant OTKs right now. I really dislike playing against Mozaki Mages and such, I'd like for that deck to be changed, I djust don't have an issue with Secret mage in particular, that's all.
And what I was saying about Mulligan/Playing into Secret Mage was more a commentary on the whole class in Wild. I only adjust play for Secret Mage when I see a Mage at all because you can't really do so against any other relevant Mage archetype. That doesn't really pertain to what I'm playing specifically - it's just a personal habit that's done me pretty well.
I just was obliterated by an APM Wild Mage with a full board of Totems and a Sea Giant by turn 5. My opponent played his entire deck and killed me with 1 Sorcerer's Apprentice and two Flamewakers. No problem here.
Refreshing Spring Water should be nerfed. It is fairly easy to draw cards WHILE GAINING mana crystals.
Secret mage is somehow less prevalent now, maybe as they have fewer good matchups, and there are some very strong Pirate and Murlock decks around, trying to keep the otk mages in check.
I have to say the power level of the format is getting more and more insane now, and if the worst offenders get nerfed, there are a whole bunch of nearly as strong ones ready to step up.
They've decided to move Sorcerer's Apprentice out of Standard rather than nerfing it, and it's a fact that the card has proved to be a problem in both formats, they just don't want to mess with Classic Mage cards for some reason (remember Ice Block and Ice Lance? just got HoF). Even in the case of Kirin Tor Mage, the reason it's not in the Core Set is most likely because of Crossroads Gossiper and the other synergistic cards from Wild that returned to Standard like Sunreaver Spy and Arcanologist.
They literally dumped problematic Mage cards into Wild just to avoid changing the high tempo Mage cards, the only significant nerf to the a Mage card from the CLASSIC set that come to mind is Mana Wyrm. As for Wild specific cards, yes, they nerfed Open the Waygate, but that was a laughable nerf, Quest Mage still dominated the ladder until Secret Mage took its place as the innevitable and usual annoying and oppressive Mage deck.
So yes, I'd say Mage is quite often problematic, but it's entirely a decision of the team. Darkglare? Nerfed within a month since the deck started to pollute the ladder. Hysteria? Same thing. Sorcerer's Apprentice or 0 mana secrets being a consistent problem for more than a YEAR? Nah, don't see any problem here, just everyone's favorite class doing the things it's supposed to do, haven't you heard about CLASS IDENTITY :) ?
To nerf secret mage, it needs a lot more small nerfs since all the secret synergy cards are just slightly overtuned. Medivh's Valet to deal 2 damage. Occult Conjurer to a 4/3 statline. Kabal Crystal Runner to cost 1 less per secret played..
This post is a year old and it's still relevant. This alone tells how much that class is broken. From rank 5 to high legend is a nightmare of secret mages and atm mages. Mage needs nerfs, even big priest in its golden age wasn't this oppressive and frustrating to play against
I just was obliterated by an APM Wild Mage with a full board of Totems and a Sea Giant by turn 5. My opponent played his entire deck and killed me with 1 Sorcerer's Apprentice and two Flamewakers. No problem here.
I hear ya. It’s unbelievable that by turn 5/6 that they can draw their entire deck and just keep spamming Flamewaker ping shots like that. That’s what happens when cards cost zero and the class has an unlimited draw engine. This should be game design 101 level stuff but they appear to NOT be doing anything about it. Very frustrating. Anyone in diamond at any level is stuck with so many games against this crap because the try hands just can’t help themselves. So sick of it. Get rid of zero cost cards....for the 1,000,000th time.....
Personally, I believe Mana refreshing should only belong to Druid. I think if ice block was completely removed from the game and change the sorcerers apprentice to cost 4 mana would really balance it out i think.
I've just played against a secret mage in plat 1. I'm on a win streak, so I believe their rank is somewhere close to mine. They were playing polymorph. A POLYMORPH, people. I'm testing tempo and tess rogue variants to see how well they fare in wild. I'd magnetised two SN1P-SN4P on my Efficient Octo-bot and needless to say I was tilted for a bit.
My point being: none. I dunno why they played it and I don't want to. I just wanted to share this epiphanic experience, because I'm neither salty nor am I feeling good. Just maintain low expectations for most of the secret mage players. They are a helpless bunch. Their brains ought to be close to getting fried by now, but some still resist the rust rotting their brain due to having played it incessantly for the last couple of years. Them and the resurrect players just don't get tired of it, so unless Blizz fundamentally changes them or attacks their key cards, some losers will continue to play them.
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Sorcerer's Apprentice is already for a long time card that should be changed, counting all of mages freezes, damage spells, discovery spells, draws sustain with Ice Block it is too much. Eater of Secrets and that flaming elemental that makes your board unfreezeable are not good techs. While Ice Block and freezes help against most decks, these two helps only against this... and they are pretty bad anyway (they are tech in the end). Ice Block and freezes are bad design for a game with no instant interaction. It skips your turn, and with mage draws, they always have everything when they need.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
Refreshing Spring Water is really the star of that deck, if that gets nerfed, the deck should slow down to be more in line with other combo decks.
I just figured out how to beat them, and it is with Far Watch Post, Loatheb and Cult Neophyte. Also remember the deck has basically no removal, and can only freeze, not kill.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
You have 30hp and 3 minions on the board, the mage still kills you turn 6 from empty board np. Of course it's oppressive. And before that it was (and still is) secret mage, and before that it was quest mage. There are some smoothbrain employee at Blizz who clearly love mage way too much.
Secret mage has been the best wild deck for effing ages ... they do NOTHING, 70% win rate tempo is fiiiine. Lets even give them some more broken archtypes to make your muligan a 50/50 gamble, why not.
No joke, this post is 1 year old and never stopped being relevant ...
Best class in the format
I hear ya - Im to the point where Mage in Wild is an instant concede. Theres nothing you can against zero costs cards, unlimited card draw and spell damage that stacks up. Like, Game 4-6 its over. You cant even play many minions or get anything going since they just remove them. Zero cost cards MUST not be allowed in this game any longer. 1 mana is the minimum. No matter what.
Problem with Mage is that their spells cost 0 mana.
Aggro Secret Mage has 0 mana secrets while other classes secrets have a mana cost.
OTK Mage deck number 14098 has 0 mana spells when playing Sorcerer's Apprentice, a card as old as Hearthstone itself.
Iksar has a massive boner for Secret Mage, so it probably won't be touched.
But they can at least beat Sorcerer's Apprentice to a bloody pulp. This is the culprit. If they nerfed something like Flamewalker or Mozaki or Antonidas, that does nothing as long as Apprentice is the way it is.
And Refreshing Spring Water is just stupid. Every expansion, card draw gets cheaper and cheaper and we have legitimately reached the point where we now have 0 mana card draw.
If anyone ever played Yugioh, you would know why 0 mana card draw is a retarded idea. Pot of Greed was the most broken card ever made. There was never a reason not to play it.
Mindrender Illucia is a good counter tool to Quest Mage and may help delay Mozaki as well
I don't have an issue with Secret Mage. Even in Wild you can figure that they're probably playing the typical suite of the best secrets in the game and play into them as much as you can (in ways that aren't overly detrimental to you) to disable their Medivh's Valet and Cloud Prince triggers (and Occult Conjurer). If you're playing the right deck, even without specific tech, Secret Mage isn't always an issue as long as you mulligan and play into Secret Mage specifically when Mage pulls up.
And since you can never mulligan/play into any form of OTK Mage I think that's whatcha always do.
Now clearly there is no foolproof way to beat Secret Mage all the time or else it wouldn't be as good as it is. But Even Hunter and Even Paladin, in my own personal experience, work pretty well.
please don't bully my son
Metas do not work like that.
Even Hunter and Even Paladin do not exist within the meta, not in Diamond and Legend. I can legitimately say I have not seen any of these played in the last 3 months, probably longer.
Obviously in the the tens of thousands of players in Hearthstone there is someone playing them, but not enough to have a counterweight on the win rate of Secret Mage.
Iksar has a hard-on for Secret Mage, he has said it is his all-time favourite deck which is why Mage secrets cost 0 mana and they create more Secret support each expansion.
It has reached the point where there is no single card which is problematic. They could nerf one of Secret Mage's cards, two of them or possibly even three and it would still be a Tier 1 deck.
I just was obliterated by an APM Wild Mage with a full board of Totems and a Sea Giant by turn 5. My opponent played his entire deck and killed me with 1 Sorcerer's Apprentice and two Flamewakers. No problem here.
I know all that. I'm playing Even Paladin and just made it to Diamond for the second time. Even Hunter got me to Diamond the first time. I'm aware that it's not a real snapshot of a meta or anything like that (there's a word that's escaping me, it's when somebody uses like 1 moment of personal experience as an argument for something - which is basically what I was doing EDIT: it's Anecdotal Evidence). I wasn't really trying to make a case or whatever, just testifying that I've had a lot of wins against Secret Mages with these two decks for some reason or another.
Because of this, I don't have a problem with Secret Mage, even fundamentally. It's far more beatable and "fair" (in Wild is any tier 1 deck really fair?) than any of Mages relevant OTKs right now. I really dislike playing against Mozaki Mages and such, I'd like for that deck to be changed, I djust don't have an issue with Secret mage in particular, that's all.
And what I was saying about Mulligan/Playing into Secret Mage was more a commentary on the whole class in Wild. I only adjust play for Secret Mage when I see a Mage at all because you can't really do so against any other relevant Mage archetype. That doesn't really pertain to what I'm playing specifically - it's just a personal habit that's done me pretty well.
please don't bully my son
Refreshing Spring Water should be nerfed. It is fairly easy to draw cards WHILE GAINING mana crystals.
Secret mage is somehow less prevalent now, maybe as they have fewer good matchups, and there are some very strong Pirate and Murlock decks around, trying to keep the otk mages in check.
I have to say the power level of the format is getting more and more insane now, and if the worst offenders get nerfed, there are a whole bunch of nearly as strong ones ready to step up.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Hate it but Girl needs to say 1 less but not zero
They've decided to move Sorcerer's Apprentice out of Standard rather than nerfing it, and it's a fact that the card has proved to be a problem in both formats, they just don't want to mess with Classic Mage cards for some reason (remember Ice Block and Ice Lance? just got HoF). Even in the case of Kirin Tor Mage, the reason it's not in the Core Set is most likely because of Crossroads Gossiper and the other synergistic cards from Wild that returned to Standard like Sunreaver Spy and Arcanologist.
They literally dumped problematic Mage cards into Wild just to avoid changing the high tempo Mage cards, the only significant nerf to the a Mage card from the CLASSIC set that come to mind is Mana Wyrm. As for Wild specific cards, yes, they nerfed Open the Waygate, but that was a laughable nerf, Quest Mage still dominated the ladder until Secret Mage took its place as the innevitable and usual annoying and oppressive Mage deck.
So yes, I'd say Mage is quite often problematic, but it's entirely a decision of the team. Darkglare? Nerfed within a month since the deck started to pollute the ladder. Hysteria? Same thing. Sorcerer's Apprentice or 0 mana secrets being a consistent problem for more than a YEAR? Nah, don't see any problem here, just everyone's favorite class doing the things it's supposed to do, haven't you heard about CLASS IDENTITY :) ?
I love you Dreadsteed, I will never disenchant you!
I honestly dont know hy they dont just call it a Mage special only format.
I truly hate this game. I only play because I have an addiction.
To nerf otk mages i think Sorcerer's Apprentice needs to be nerfed the Summoning Portal way and just say 'but not less than 1'
To nerf secret mage, it needs a lot more small nerfs since all the secret synergy cards are just slightly overtuned. Medivh's Valet to deal 2 damage. Occult Conjurer to a 4/3 statline. Kabal Crystal Runner to cost 1 less per secret played..
Also, unrelated but please renerf Raza the Chained
This post is a year old and it's still relevant. This alone tells how much that class is broken. From rank 5 to high legend is a nightmare of secret mages and atm mages. Mage needs nerfs, even big priest in its golden age wasn't this oppressive and frustrating to play against
I hear ya. It’s unbelievable that by turn 5/6 that they can draw their entire deck and just keep spamming Flamewaker ping shots like that. That’s what happens when cards cost zero and the class has an unlimited draw engine. This should be game design 101 level stuff but they appear to NOT be doing anything about it. Very frustrating. Anyone in diamond at any level is stuck with so many games against this crap because the try hands just can’t help themselves. So sick of it. Get rid of zero cost cards....for the 1,000,000th time.....
Personally, I believe Mana refreshing should only belong to Druid. I think if ice block was completely removed from the game and change the sorcerers apprentice to cost 4 mana would really balance it out i think.
I've just played against a secret mage in plat 1. I'm on a win streak, so I believe their rank is somewhere close to mine. They were playing polymorph. A POLYMORPH, people. I'm testing tempo and tess rogue variants to see how well they fare in wild. I'd magnetised two SN1P-SN4P on my Efficient Octo-bot and needless to say I was tilted for a bit.
My point being: none. I dunno why they played it and I don't want to. I just wanted to share this epiphanic experience, because I'm neither salty nor am I feeling good. Just maintain low expectations for most of the secret mage players. They are a helpless bunch. Their brains ought to be close to getting fried by now, but some still resist the rust rotting their brain due to having played it incessantly for the last couple of years. Them and the resurrect players just don't get tired of it, so unless Blizz fundamentally changes them or attacks their key cards, some losers will continue to play them.