Acording to Hsreplay, the 4 decks with the highest winrates at higher ranks are now mage decks, with 3 different archetypes: -Aggro secret -Highlander quest -Flamewaker quest
I know there are some tech cards against mage, but at this point, none of them keep make in check, with all 3 of them sitting between 58% and 59% in winrate, which is VERY HIGH at rank 5 and up. No other class come close, even warlock and mech decks which also have some very strong turns up their sleeves.
Licensed Adventurer pushed the quest mages over the top, and the inclusion of strong AoE (which was a major weakness previously) did the same for the secret decks a while ago.
When is it time to do something? Are there counters which have not been discovered yet?
Not one class dominating the format, that is not healthy. Remember they have nerfed Wild cards in the past in similar situations:
Tbh, the only deck which could rival the current mage decks were the SA-druid. The others were much weaker but frustrating to play against.
They nerfed cards because all the wild players kept crying about it. In reality it is just a for fun mode that Blizzard barely wants to cater to until the wild community starts spamming their twitter and reddit crying about it.
They nerfed cards because all the wild players kept crying about it. In reality it is just a for fun mode that Blizzard barely wants to cater to until the wild community starts spamming their twitter and reddit crying about it.
Blizzard adding back Wild packs to the store and doing occational Wild-packs promotions tells a different story. They DO monitor winrates, and have been pretty quick on the nerf-trigger lately.
However, with the standard rotation coming in, I don't think they will do much before Standard is stabilized, but I think it is reasonable to start discussing this already.
They should nerf some cards. Open the waygate to 7 spells required.
Explosive runes dealing 5 damage. Cloud prince deal 5 damage. Arcane flakemage having cost 3 mana or to be a 2/2.
Medivh valet to be a 2/2 instead of 2/3.
In this way mage will still be tier 1 becouse this nerfs won t kill the class but also will make it weaker. Or even just not letting explosive runes going face can really change it all.
I am sure hearthstone devs are conscius about how annoyng is to play against a class that is way too favourited. And against quest magw there is no really a counter or a tech card. You can only put pressure and hope they dont complete too fast.
I don't think so ,we have two other classes in tier 1(shaman and warlock),and 5 other classes in tier 2.Mage is strong ,but not umbeatable or opressive
That would only address the reno quest mage which runs Vargoth but the best deck is running the Flamewaker version and does nothing to that deck.
With Kingsbane fixed i can see a rise in Kingsbane Rogue since Raiding Party now costs 3 and Kingsbane should do well against Mage because of constant weapon hitting in the face.
That would only address the reno quest mage which runs Vargoth but the best deck is running the Flamewaker version and does nothing to that deck.
With Kingsbane fixed i can see a rise in Kingsbane Rogue since Raiding Party now costs 3 and Kingsbane should do well against Mage because of constant weapon hitting in the face.
It is possible but with card Preparation nerfed, I doubt Kingsbane rogue will be nearly as strong as it once was.
I don't think so ,we have two other classes in tier 1(shaman and warlock),and 5 other classes in tier 2.Mage is strong ,but not umbeatable or opressiv
At rank 2 in Wild, where the TRUE meta starts, I encountered a massive wall of quest mages, piloted by competent players. I admit there is skill involved, as you often have to look for answers from RNG generated spells, and have to calculate precisely when to go off with your combos, but the numbers show that the powerlevel is absolutely through the roof with no real counter.
Another possible nerf, as some cards made the quest WAAAY easier to complete:
Even going up to 10 could be an option. If quest mage is nerfed, some heal/armor heavy control deck could possibly handle the secret-aggro deck.
True, the problem is that 3 decks can destroy any other classes. Play Druid against Sec Mage? How about a bunch of Flamewalker/ Reno Quest Mage? Play aggro against Flamewalker? Get ready for Sec Mage/ Reno Quest. Play Albatross against Reno Quest Mage? Brave yourself upon the other 2. If there is a deck that counter 2 of them, such deck must be tier 1, but well, nothing at tier 1 other than Mages. There are some variables with Even Shaman, that can counter both Sec Mage and Flamewalker, but those variables will get destroyed if face any other decks. Not to mention next expansion Mage will receive a lot of tools, especially Evocation, and Apexis Smuggler (Netherwind Portal maybe?).
With Sec Mage I don't mind the face dmg from spell. But what I mind is secret comes with a body that could go face. For example Kirin Tor Mage in turn 3 follows up by Explosive Runes against board heavy decks, or Counterspell [/card]against slow decks will 90% guarantee to deal 4 dmg next turn. The addition of Flakmage/ [card]Flame Ward in Uldum truly push Sec Mage's weakest match-up: spammed heavy decks, into favor match-up. I don't mind Aluneth that much. If I have like 20 hp or more with a decent board state, they will die of fatigue after equipping it. My suggestion is that nerf Arcane Flakmage to 3(4) mana is OK, since it will make Mage weaker against spammed heavy decks, which is another favor match-up besides slow Druid. Also, I don't think paying 3 mana for a board clear is healthy either but it is what it is.
With Quest Mage in general, back then when we don't have much cheap spell generators, finishing the quest is hard. Now you just need to finish the quest, wait to turn 9, play Archmage Vargoth into Open the Waygate, and spam 1 or 2 giants down, and win the game immediately. No need to draw much. Surviving is an easy story for Reno decks in general, so between 2 semi-combo deck, Reno Priest and Reno Mage their control ability is around the same, but Reno Mage is just faster in killing your opponent. I think that Quest should be finished within 8 spells, and Open the Waygate should cost 7 mana. Flamewaker also. It hits fast and hard, especially with Sorcerer's Apprentice. The appropriate nerf would be increasing mana cost, but the problem is not Flamewaker, it's because of cheap spells.
After all of that, I think that change is good, it makes the game healthier, but I think that Wild should not be too wild. On the other hand, some changes would end up killing many people's favourite archetypes, and it is not fun either. I think the best would be establishing a ban list (like Yu-Gi-Oh), that will temporarily remove oppressive cards, lead to one-sided meta, until other new cards are published and tested. This changed will not only change the boring meta in Wild, which replicates over and over in any expansions regardless of what cards are printed out, but also create a new game mode for testing and stuff. But it's up to Blizzard to decide what happens in Wild. If they don't change Mage which means that Mage is still in OK spot I believe.
Compare Open The Waygate to Lakkari Sacrifice. I just find it amusing that a company would consider the two in any way comparable in power level and release both in the same expansion. It makes me question my sanity in spending any money at all on packs. The three mage archetypes are all 62-67% winrate.
At least for Secret Mage there's this... get some pleasure in torturing them. https://youtu.be/pSAmtW6pZos AAEBAa0GBJAH4KwCoIAD3asDDYoH+g+IrwK3uwLqvwLRwQLi8gKXhwOClAPAmAOhoQO7pQOZqQMA
Wild is a hot pile of garbage rn, the amount of absurd bs mage can do is outstanding even for wild standards. I can't understand how team 5 thinks about it as a decent format. "oppressive" isn't even beginning to describe what the hell is going on. But I guess competent, intelligent people working on stuff like """"balancing formats""""" is indeed a little too much to ask for a small indie company.
Not one class dominating the format, that is not healthy. Remember they have nerfed Wild cards in the past in similar situations:
Tbh, the only deck which could rival the current mage decks were the SA-druid. The others were much weaker but frustrating to play against.
They nerfed cards because all the wild players kept crying about it. In reality it is just a for fun mode that Blizzard barely wants to cater to until the wild community starts spamming their twitter and reddit crying about it.
Wild should be place to be able to play all cards, not to be dominated by few decks or being broken with some interaction. Banning or nerfing oppressive cards could be viable to enjoy all type of decks in wild. But against some decks you basically loose before you even start your turn 1, because there isn't possibility to win. I'm not saying I should win with horrible deck and cards in it, but some cards are way too uninteractive. HS still "suffers" from not being able to react on your opponents turn. Imagine shadow word: death would be like instant in MTG, mage drops giant and goes for extra turn and you kill the giants. Now? There is no real counter-play. I don't want HS to become MTG or anything, but then they need to ban or atleast nerf some cards.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
The real problem is the cost of the reward, the solution would be that it cost 8 mana Time Warp.
But I consider that warlock is more oppressive because it has more possibilities to make a highroll with Darkest Hour, Bloodbloom, Skull of the Man'ari, Voidcaller, etc. And the worst thing is that all warlocks play with the Meca'thun version. That class deserves a nerf in everything.
Blizz said weeks ago they were watching 4 different wild decks including secret and quest mage. They really need to nerf mages, a third of the wild meta consists of two main types of mages.
Anyone complaining about Mage should take a look at Warlock. They can do about the same absurd power turns as Mage except earlier.
Regardless, a couple classes in a pretty high tier at the moment. I don't think any of them are unbeatable as they all have weaknesses, but it takes a strong deck and good RNG to have a chance. Toning down Mage and Warlock a tad would not be amiss.
Acording to Hsreplay, the 4 decks with the highest winrates at higher ranks are now mage decks, with 3 different archetypes:
-Aggro secret
-Highlander quest
-Flamewaker quest
I know there are some tech cards against mage, but at this point, none of them keep make in check, with all 3 of them sitting between 58% and 59% in winrate, which is VERY HIGH at rank 5 and up. No other class come close, even warlock and mech decks which also have some very strong turns up their sleeves.
Licensed Adventurer pushed the quest mages over the top, and the inclusion of strong AoE (which was a major weakness previously) did the same for the secret decks a while ago.
When is it time to do something? Are there counters which have not been discovered yet?
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
You're playing wild. What do you expect?
Not one class dominating the format, that is not healthy. Remember they have nerfed Wild cards in the past in similar situations:
Tbh, the only deck which could rival the current mage decks were the SA-druid. The others were much weaker but frustrating to play against.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
They nerfed cards because all the wild players kept crying about it. In reality it is just a for fun mode that Blizzard barely wants to cater to until the wild community starts spamming their twitter and reddit crying about it.
Blizzard adding back Wild packs to the store and doing occational Wild-packs promotions tells a different story. They DO monitor winrates, and have been pretty quick on the nerf-trigger lately.
However, with the standard rotation coming in, I don't think they will do much before Standard is stabilized, but I think it is reasonable to start discussing this already.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
For me yes. Mage is oppressive. But they are also oppressive Highlander Reno Priest and Mecha'thun Warlock.
In my opinion, the combo decks are now too strong, and combo breaking is becoming very difficult (even with dirty rat or other tech cards).
Even very Aggro decks are having hard times due to their strong removals, draws and combo easy to complete.
Combo decks are a big issue in wild like now, they are able to complete the combo very very early.
(Blizzard made a stupid mistake unnerfing Raza)
They should nerf some cards. Open the waygate to 7 spells required.
Explosive runes dealing 5 damage. Cloud prince deal 5 damage. Arcane flakemage having cost 3 mana or to be a 2/2.
Medivh valet to be a 2/2 instead of 2/3.
In this way mage will still be tier 1 becouse this nerfs won t kill the class but also will make it weaker. Or even just not letting explosive runes going face can really change it all.
I am sure hearthstone devs are conscius about how annoyng is to play against a class that is way too favourited. And against quest magw there is no really a counter or a tech card. You can only put pressure and hope they dont complete too fast.
PRIEST
I don't think so ,we have two other classes in tier 1(shaman and warlock),and 5 other classes in tier 2.Mage is strong ,but not umbeatable or opressive
Increasing requirement to 7 spells won't change anything since mage is getting 1 mana legendary spell next expansion imo
I think best way to fix it, without breaking too many things, is to change the spelling and effect of the Time Warp card from
"Take an extra turn" ---> "Your opponent skips the next turn"
so it's effect doesn't stack up by playing multiple times using Archmage for example
Darkest hour warlock aka coinflip warlock has to be dealt with too I think even tho it's a tier 2 deck
That would only address the reno quest mage which runs Vargoth but the best deck is running the Flamewaker version and does nothing to that deck.
With Kingsbane fixed i can see a rise in Kingsbane Rogue since Raiding Party now costs 3 and Kingsbane should do well against Mage because of constant weapon hitting in the face.
It is possible but with card Preparation nerfed, I doubt Kingsbane rogue will be nearly as strong as it once was.
At rank 2 in Wild, where the TRUE meta starts, I encountered a massive wall of quest mages, piloted by competent players. I admit there is skill involved, as you often have to look for answers from RNG generated spells, and have to calculate precisely when to go off with your combos, but the numbers show that the powerlevel is absolutely through the roof with no real counter.
Another possible nerf, as some cards made the quest WAAAY easier to complete:
Even going up to 10 could be an option. If quest mage is nerfed, some heal/armor heavy control deck could possibly handle the secret-aggro deck.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
True, the problem is that 3 decks can destroy any other classes. Play Druid against Sec Mage? How about a bunch of Flamewalker/ Reno Quest Mage? Play aggro against Flamewalker? Get ready for Sec Mage/ Reno Quest. Play Albatross against Reno Quest Mage? Brave yourself upon the other 2. If there is a deck that counter 2 of them, such deck must be tier 1, but well, nothing at tier 1 other than Mages. There are some variables with Even Shaman, that can counter both Sec Mage and Flamewalker, but those variables will get destroyed if face any other decks. Not to mention next expansion Mage will receive a lot of tools, especially Evocation, and Apexis Smuggler (Netherwind Portal maybe?).
With Sec Mage I don't mind the face dmg from spell. But what I mind is secret comes with a body that could go face. For example Kirin Tor Mage in turn 3 follows up by Explosive Runes against board heavy decks, or Counterspell [/card]against slow decks will 90% guarantee to deal 4 dmg next turn. The addition of Flakmage/ [card]Flame Ward in Uldum truly push Sec Mage's weakest match-up: spammed heavy decks, into favor match-up. I don't mind Aluneth that much. If I have like 20 hp or more with a decent board state, they will die of fatigue after equipping it. My suggestion is that nerf Arcane Flakmage to 3(4) mana is OK, since it will make Mage weaker against spammed heavy decks, which is another favor match-up besides slow Druid. Also, I don't think paying 3 mana for a board clear is healthy either but it is what it is.
With Quest Mage in general, back then when we don't have much cheap spell generators, finishing the quest is hard. Now you just need to finish the quest, wait to turn 9, play Archmage Vargoth into Open the Waygate, and spam 1 or 2 giants down, and win the game immediately. No need to draw much. Surviving is an easy story for Reno decks in general, so between 2 semi-combo deck, Reno Priest and Reno Mage their control ability is around the same, but Reno Mage is just faster in killing your opponent. I think that Quest should be finished within 8 spells, and Open the Waygate should cost 7 mana. Flamewaker also. It hits fast and hard, especially with Sorcerer's Apprentice. The appropriate nerf would be increasing mana cost, but the problem is not Flamewaker, it's because of cheap spells.
After all of that, I think that change is good, it makes the game healthier, but I think that Wild should not be too wild. On the other hand, some changes would end up killing many people's favourite archetypes, and it is not fun either. I think the best would be establishing a ban list (like Yu-Gi-Oh), that will temporarily remove oppressive cards, lead to one-sided meta, until other new cards are published and tested. This changed will not only change the boring meta in Wild, which replicates over and over in any expansions regardless of what cards are printed out, but also create a new game mode for testing and stuff. But it's up to Blizzard to decide what happens in Wild. If they don't change Mage which means that Mage is still in OK spot I believe.
Compare Open The Waygate to Lakkari Sacrifice. I just find it amusing that a company would consider the two in any way comparable in power level and release both in the same expansion. It makes me question my sanity in spending any money at all on packs. The three mage archetypes are all 62-67% winrate.
At least for Secret Mage there's this... get some pleasure in torturing them.
https://youtu.be/pSAmtW6pZos
AAEBAa0GBJAH4KwCoIAD3asDDYoH+g+IrwK3uwLqvwLRwQLi8gKXhwOClAPAmAOhoQO7pQOZqQMA
Wild is a hot pile of garbage rn, the amount of absurd bs mage can do is outstanding even for wild standards. I can't understand how team 5 thinks about it as a decent format. "oppressive" isn't even beginning to describe what the hell is going on.
But I guess competent, intelligent people working on stuff like """"balancing formats""""" is indeed a little too much to ask for a small indie company.
Wild should be place to be able to play all cards, not to be dominated by few decks or being broken with some interaction. Banning or nerfing oppressive cards could be viable to enjoy all type of decks in wild. But against some decks you basically loose before you even start your turn 1, because there isn't possibility to win. I'm not saying I should win with horrible deck and cards in it, but some cards are way too uninteractive. HS still "suffers" from not being able to react on your opponents turn. Imagine shadow word: death would be like instant in MTG, mage drops giant and goes for extra turn and you kill the giants. Now? There is no real counter-play. I don't want HS to become MTG or anything, but then they need to ban or atleast nerf some cards.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
The real problem is the cost of the reward, the solution would be that it cost 8 mana Time Warp.
But I consider that warlock is more oppressive because it has more possibilities to make a highroll with Darkest Hour, Bloodbloom, Skull of the Man'ari, Voidcaller, etc. And the worst thing is that all warlocks play with the Meca'thun version. That class deserves a nerf in everything.
In addition it also has tools to ruin combos like Gnomeferatu, Demonic Project, etc. while the other classes must play Dirty Rat.
Secret Mage is fine but Quest Mage is ultra broken, I just concede against these abominations.
Blizz said weeks ago they were watching 4 different wild decks including secret and quest mage. They really need to nerf mages, a third of the wild meta consists of two main types of mages.
Anyone complaining about Mage should take a look at Warlock. They can do about the same absurd power turns as Mage except earlier.
Regardless, a couple classes in a pretty high tier at the moment. I don't think any of them are unbeatable as they all have weaknesses, but it takes a strong deck and good RNG to have a chance. Toning down Mage and Warlock a tad would not be amiss.
Bloodbloom 4 mana
Close the waygate 10 spells
Arcane flakmage deal 2 damage to a random enemy minion
Spawn of shadow deal 2 damage instead of 4
https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1333477-xskarmalock