There would be no need of nerfs if the rock-paper-shissors paradigm worked correctly.
If all Combo decks, including Druid, could stall, but ultimately had unfavored matchup against average Aggro (not t1 Aggro only like Odd Rogue), the deck would be kept in check, while powerful.
Fact is that Combo Druid is too good in too many things. Its stall and/or draw power should be weakened: no matter the Combo, it is meaningless if you are dead before you can pull it.
Just look at Exodia Mage (a deck with INFINITE Combo damage).
Also, again, variety of Combo Druid is meaningless, as they all work the same way under Aviana + Kun. Let them have all the variations possible, as long as the whole archetype is kept in check.
In mtg, over the years cards have been created that when played toghether simply win you the game without the opponent having a chance to stop you. Hearthstone hasn't reached this point yet but it will. Without blizzard creating a card ban list the only solution is to block certain cards from being in the same deck. You can play this and that but not toghether.
But that's a problem we'll face in 4-5 years. For now nerfs should suffice.
In mtg, over the years cards have been created that when played toghether simply win you the game without the opponent having a chance to stop you. Hearthstone hasn't reached this point yet but it will. Without blizzard creating a card ban list the only solution is to block certain cards from being in the same deck. You can play this and that but not toghether.
But that's a problem we'll face in 4-5 years. For now nerfs should suffice.
MTG has enough disruption to keep combo in check. There's a reason why force of will is said to be the glue that holds Legacy together. That one card holds back glass cannon combo (Oops etc.), enough to lead into slower, more resilient combo (ANT, TES etc.), which then allows for stuff like D&T, tempo-based creature decks, and the like (bear in mind that 50% of the time, Daze, tormod's, and similar are too slow against Oops-level, whereas they're playable against the turn two to turn three of ANT and the like). Sure, it's augmented by hand disruption (Thoughtseize, IoK), but it's the zero mana countermagic that keeps T1 combo down. You end up with overly resilient combo, but bans keep that in check.
In HS, there's barely anything in the way of rituals (and MTG's broken rituals are the old stuff, because bad design decisions), so you're not as likely to end up in a situation where you need the T0 countermagic. More hand disruption or taxing would keep HS-speed combo in check. We have two pieces of hand disruption (Rat, deathlord) and one playable piece of tax (Loatheb), along with 4 or so bad taxing cards (doomed apprentice, rebuke, mana wraith, and ner'ubar weblord). Instead of bans when stuff is evidently broken, HS can - and does - nerf. No need for limiting what can be played together, IMO, if there's disruption.
I hope we won't get this situation in hs. Every deck needing to contain dirty rat just to survive all the combos that will pop up in future expansions. They did add demonic project which is good, but it's only for 1 class out of 9. tax also is kinda shitty in hs because most combos right now are minion based and it's not that hard to wait one more turn for most combo decks.
I crafted the Star Aligner deck, and got that creeping feeling of playing something very broken that should not be in the game. I only had it twice before: with UTH/Buzzard hunter and Nagalock. CTA Even paladin and full force Jade druid did not feel nearly as bad for me!
It probably needs several nerfs to come in line with the rest of the game. And they could easily nerf Thing from Below to 7 mana as well while they are at it!
I crafted the Star Aligner deck, and got that creeping feeling of playing something very broken that should not be in the game. I only had it twice before: with UTH/Buzzard hunter and Nagalock. CTA Even paladin and full force Jade druid did not feel nearly as bad for me!
It probably needs several nerfs to come in line with the rest of the game. And they could easily nerf Thing from Below to 7 mana as well while they are at it!
Agree. This is my experience playing that deck before I began my holy crusade against Psychmelon :D
After trying out the deck I can say these statements that I've made: 1, Highroll of the deck is way bigger and obnoxious compared to Naga decks, Barnes decks or Big Rogue. Combo can be done on turn 3 which is really broken. Combo effect of the deck is basically huge board of fat minions and over 14 face damage if you couldn't find Brann(Basically Freeze Mage and Giant decks like effect). 2. Every matchup is winnable. Even the ones that have Armor or Reno decks with hand and deck disruptions. Dirty Rat doesn't wins the game for him due to other minions anf bounce effects and Armor have to be higher than 40 becaused you can manage to play 4 doubled Battlecries of Star Aligners. 3. Some opponents were simply conceding as soon as they saw JuicyPsychmelon played. 4. The only fast deck that can have chance against it is Even Shaman due to his big fat minions. And even then it was 60/40 in my favour. Odd decks and Zoo decks couldn.t beat me and Aluneth Mage is good to as long as you play yout non combo pieces into secrets.
So overall I'd consdier this deck to be 1 Tier. Maybe even close to S Tier since it is doing more powerfull stuff earlier than any other deck in game or in history of this game.
I liked to play wild once in a while, but I have to agree: star aligner decks (about 50% above rank 3) made me stop playing.
I always disliked the non-interactive decks, but other decks had weaknesses to aggro decks (quest rogue), were high-skill (free mage) or inconsistent (big priest, giant lock)..
star aligner with its Psychmelon and mana acceleration is simply too consistent in allowing the deck to have the Combo in place in turn 7/8. Even when playing Renolock with dirty rat, demonic project, deathlord and gnomeferatu the chance of winning is less than 50%: You simply do not have time to find your combo wrecker and even if you do, there are other minions that are pulled out of the opponents hand. Apart from that the deck is soooo boring to play against and is soooo easy to play with...
i think the solution lies in doing something about Ariana/kun.. psychmelon and star aligner are ok imo...
I liked to play wild once in a while, but I have to agree: star aligner decks (about 50% above rank 3) made me stop playing.
I always disliked the non-interactive decks, but other decks had weaknesses to aggro decks (quest rogue), were high-skill (free mage) or inconsistent (big priest, giant lock)..
star aligner with its Psychmelon and mana acceleration is simply too consistent in allowing the deck to have the Combo in place in turn 7/8. Even when playing Renolock with dirty rat, demonic project, deathlord and gnomeferatu the chance of winning is less than 50%: You simply do not have time to find your combo wrecker and even if you do, there are other minions that are pulled out of the opponents hand. Apart from that the deck is soooo boring to play against and is soooo easy to play with...
i think the solution lies in doing something about Ariana/kun.. psychmelon and star aligner are ok imo...
Are you really sating that tutoring card in only ramping class in HS is not a problem? Juicy Psychmelon is overpowered. Its on broken levels, its so powerfull that UI is not played in Star Aligner decks.
I liked to play wild once in a while, but I have to agree: star aligner decks (about 50% above rank 3) made me stop playing.
I always disliked the non-interactive decks, but other decks had weaknesses to aggro decks (quest rogue), were high-skill (free mage) or inconsistent (big priest, giant lock)..
star aligner with its Psychmelon and mana acceleration is simply too consistent in allowing the deck to have the Combo in place in turn 7/8. Even when playing Renolock with dirty rat, demonic project, deathlord and gnomeferatu the chance of winning is less than 50%: You simply do not have time to find your combo wrecker and even if you do, there are other minions that are pulled out of the opponents hand. Apart from that the deck is soooo boring to play against and is soooo easy to play with...
i think the solution lies in doing something about Ariana/kun.. psychmelon and star aligner are ok imo...
Are you really sating that tutoring card in only ramping class in HS is not a problem? Juicy Psychmelon is overpowered. Its on broken levels, its so powerfull that UI is not played in Star Aligner decks.
Yes, I am exactly saying that. Think about it.. Without the Aviana-Kun combo psychmelon will not be a problem. Sure... It will net you 4 (really expensive) cards but there is no combo anymore and it will require you to build your deck VERY specifically. In the right deck it will still be powerful, yes, but not overpowered. Also UI will still be better for the majority of decks..
Aviana/KUN has been a problem now for a really long time (not only star aligner, but also the Malygos or Togwaggle decks).. Changing Aviana to a 'dreampetal florist'-like creature (i.e. your minions cost 7 less, but not less than 1) or something would leave the idea behind Aviana intact and would finally get rid of this crazy combo..
Drought and hunger in Africa are a problem too. Stop whining and crying about everything please and enjoy your game.
Seriously???
You understand the idea behind a forum, right? I do not agree to all of the arguments here, but I understand where they are coming from and at least people thought about them before posting. The only person 'whining and crying' about anything without any arguments seems to be you...
And please.. Nobody here is comparing anything with real world problems... This is just a forum...
I liked to play wild once in a while, but I have to agree: star aligner decks (about 50% above rank 3) made me stop playing.
I always disliked the non-interactive decks, but other decks had weaknesses to aggro decks (quest rogue), were high-skill (free mage) or inconsistent (big priest, giant lock)..
star aligner with its Psychmelon and mana acceleration is simply too consistent in allowing the deck to have the Combo in place in turn 7/8. Even when playing Renolock with dirty rat, demonic project, deathlord and gnomeferatu the chance of winning is less than 50%: You simply do not have time to find your combo wrecker and even if you do, there are other minions that are pulled out of the opponents hand. Apart from that the deck is soooo boring to play against and is soooo easy to play with...
i think the solution lies in doing something about Ariana/kun.. psychmelon and star aligner are ok imo...
Are you really sating that tutoring card in only ramping class in HS is not a problem? Juicy Psychmelon is overpowered. Its on broken levels, its so powerfull that UI is not played in Star Aligner decks.
Yes, I am exactly saying that. Think about it.. Without the Aviana-Kun combo psychmelon will not be a problem. Sure... It will net you 4 (really expensive) cards but there is no combo anymore and it will require you to build your deck VERY specifically. In the right deck it will still be powerful, yes, but not overpowered. Also UI will still be better for the majority of decks..
Aviana/KUN has been a problem now for a really long time (not only star aligner, but also the Malygos or Togwaggle decks).. Changing Aviana to a 'dreampetal florist'-like creature (i.e. your minions cost 7 less, but not less than 1) or something would leave the idea behind Aviana intact and would finally get rid of this crazy combo..
Aviana/Kun deck became problem after printing of Melon. Before that Druid actually needed to find his combo and draw cards required for combo. Malygos and Togwaggle are not problematic at all. Star Aligner is: It has Naga Giant and Freezemage effect combined and all what you need to do is tutor the combo pieces with Melon while countering Rat with Pipers and other not that important cards.
I liked to play wild once in a while, but I have to agree: star aligner decks (about 50% above rank 3) made me stop playing.
I always disliked the non-interactive decks, but other decks had weaknesses to aggro decks (quest rogue), were high-skill (free mage) or inconsistent (big priest, giant lock)..
star aligner with its Psychmelon and mana acceleration is simply too consistent in allowing the deck to have the Combo in place in turn 7/8. Even when playing Renolock with dirty rat, demonic project, deathlord and gnomeferatu the chance of winning is less than 50%: You simply do not have time to find your combo wrecker and even if you do, there are other minions that are pulled out of the opponents hand. Apart from that the deck is soooo boring to play against and is soooo easy to play with...
i think the solution lies in doing something about Ariana/kun.. psychmelon and star aligner are ok imo...
Are you really sating that tutoring card in only ramping class in HS is not a problem? Juicy Psychmelon is overpowered. Its on broken levels, its so powerfull that UI is not played in Star Aligner decks.
Yes, I am exactly saying that. Think about it.. Without the Aviana-Kun combo psychmelon will not be a problem. Sure... It will net you 4 (really expensive) cards but there is no combo anymore and it will require you to build your deck VERY specifically. In the right deck it will still be powerful, yes, but not overpowered. Also UI will still be better for the majority of decks..
Aviana/KUN has been a problem now for a really long time (not only star aligner, but also the Malygos or Togwaggle decks).. Changing Aviana to a 'dreampetal florist'-like creature (i.e. your minions cost 7 less, but not less than 1) or something would leave the idea behind Aviana intact and would finally get rid of this crazy combo..
Aviana/Kun deck became problem after printing of Melon. Before that Druid actually needed to find his combo and draw cards required for combo. Malygos and Togwaggle are not problematic at all. Star Aligner is: It has Naga Giant and Freezemage effect combined and all what you need to do is tutor the combo pieces with Melon while countering Rat with Pipers and other not that important cards.
Well, we both agree that the combination of avian-kun and psychmelon is definitely a problem. And either psychmelon or aviana-kun needs fixing. Where we disagree is to change Ariana-kun or psychmelon. My preference would be Ariana-kun:
If Ariana-kun would exist without psychmelon the deck would indeed be a lot worse because you will not find the Combo as quickly, But BEFORE psychmelon, togwaggle druid was definitely tier 1 (snapshot #18 tempostorm; and snapshot #17) and this made use of aviana-kun. There are also instances of maly-druid in the top tiers that rely on the same Combo. So, nerfing only psychmelon would still leave these decks.
if psychmelon would exist without Ariana-kun i don’t think there would be a problem because psychmelon decks rarely exist in standard format. Actually the idea behind psychmelon is pretty ok when it cannot find a OTK. There is nothing wrong with building a deck that relies on big creatures that cannot be played all at the same time without allowing the opponents to answer for it. If it was we would be having this discussion in the standard forum.
Well, we both agree that the combination of avian-kun and psychmelon is definitely a problem. And either psychmelon or aviana-kun needs fixing. Where we disagree is to change Ariana-kun or psychmelon. My preference would be Ariana-kun:
If Ariana-kun would exist without psychmelon the deck would indeed be a lot worse because you will not find the Combo as quickly, But BEFORE psychmelon, togwaggle druid was definitely tier 1 (snapshot #18 tempostorm; and snapshot #17) and this made use of aviana-kun. There are also instances of maly-druid in the top tiers that rely on the same Combo. So, nerfing only psychmelon would still leave these decks.
if psychmelon would exist without Ariana-kun i don’t think there would be a problem because psychmelon decks rarely exist in standard format. Actually the idea behind psychmelon is pretty ok when it cannot find a OTK. There is nothing wrong with building a deck that relies on big creatures that cannot be played all at the same time without allowing the opponents to answer for it. If it was we would be having this discussion in the standard forum.
I wouldn't really rely on Tempostrom snapshots because they are too biased by contributors and they are missing a lot of things( at least in my humble opinion that I can explain if you are interested). The thing is that even though both Malygos and TogAzalina Druids were strong, they were not oppresive. They were not warping meta around them and they weren't close to Tier S as Star Aligner is. Star Aligner does that because of the fact that it can succesfully counter hand and deck disruption effects effectively enough to win while still being a solid good deck against other non-control matchups. That is the problem. So the deck needs some weakness. And the only hard hit that can affect it is Psychmelon. Aviana/Kun decks were there before, but they were not comboing you on turn 3 because of Biology Projects and Psychmelons.
Aviana should only effect one minion. Druid can still play jades, big dragons, tokens and whatnot. No need for that combo bs. How many OTKs can Aviana/Kun do now? 6? And the number will only increase!
Aviana should only effect one minion. Druid can still play jades, big dragons, tokens and whatnot. No need for that combo bs. How many OTKs can Aviana/Kun do now? 6? And the number will only increase!
I can't really agree with that being a problem. Emperor Thaurassan also enables combo decks (which I am fine with), which results in many more druid restricted combo decks than Aviana & Kun enable. And Emperor will always enable more combo decks than Aviana Kun. If T5 doesn't mind Emperor after all of this time why should Aviana Kun be any different?
yeah aviana and kun are fine. problem cards are UI, plague, branching paths, and melon. druid should not have the best ramp, draw/tutoring, and stall in the game, as well as having the strongest combo finishers.
After playing Star Aligner druid for a fair number of games, some counters are there! I have lost to:
-Even shaman: as soon as a big guy survives, it is time for Widfury, and some times Devolve to get through taunts. This is probably the strongest Wild deck. Druid can win with good draws, though!
-OTK mage: Ice block and freeze can be difficult to deal with! Some tech vs secrets.
-Any deck with Coldlight Oracle. If you don't get an early Melon out, there is a high chance your win condition will turn to dust to your right. Even if you do get the draw, they can still mill key pieces like Brann, especially since your hand will be full of expensive cards. Kingsbane and Mill rogue do this especially well.
-Aggro: won't give you time to ramp and draw.
-Big priest: Depeds a lot on the melon and what minions he gets. I usually don't kill his res guys, but he might do it himself...
And then there are the hand and deck disruption tech cards. With nut draws and full combo going off on turn 5-6, no deck has a chance, though!
There would be no need of nerfs if the rock-paper-shissors paradigm worked correctly.
If all Combo decks, including Druid, could stall, but ultimately had unfavored matchup against average Aggro (not t1 Aggro only like Odd Rogue), the deck would be kept in check, while powerful.
Fact is that Combo Druid is too good in too many things. Its stall and/or draw power should be weakened: no matter the Combo, it is meaningless if you are dead before you can pull it.
Just look at Exodia Mage (a deck with INFINITE Combo damage).
Also, again, variety of Combo Druid is meaningless, as they all work the same way under Aviana + Kun. Let them have all the variations possible, as long as the whole archetype is kept in check.
In mtg, over the years cards have been created that when played toghether simply win you the game without the opponent having a chance to stop you. Hearthstone hasn't reached this point yet but it will. Without blizzard creating a card ban list the only solution is to block certain cards from being in the same deck. You can play this and that but not toghether.
But that's a problem we'll face in 4-5 years. For now nerfs should suffice.
I hope we won't get this situation in hs. Every deck needing to contain dirty rat just to survive all the combos that will pop up in future expansions. They did add demonic project which is good, but it's only for 1 class out of 9. tax also is kinda shitty in hs because most combos right now are minion based and it's not that hard to wait one more turn for most combo decks.
Get out of here xDDD
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
lmao
But you ain't talkin'
I agree just because I have two copies of Juicy Psychmelon and it's probably the card they're going to nerf.
I crafted the Star Aligner deck, and got that creeping feeling of playing something very broken that should not be in the game. I only had it twice before: with UTH/Buzzard hunter and Nagalock. CTA Even paladin and full force Jade druid did not feel nearly as bad for me!
It probably needs several nerfs to come in line with the rest of the game. And they could easily nerf Thing from Below to 7 mana as well while they are at it!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Agree. This is my experience playing that deck before I began my holy crusade against Psychmelon :D
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
I liked to play wild once in a while, but I have to agree: star aligner decks (about 50% above rank 3) made me stop playing.
I always disliked the non-interactive decks, but other decks had weaknesses to aggro decks (quest rogue), were high-skill (free mage) or inconsistent (big priest, giant lock)..
star aligner with its Psychmelon and mana acceleration is simply too consistent in allowing the deck to have the Combo in place in turn 7/8. Even when playing Renolock with dirty rat, demonic project, deathlord and gnomeferatu the chance of winning is less than 50%: You simply do not have time to find your combo wrecker and even if you do, there are other minions that are pulled out of the opponents hand. Apart from that the deck is soooo boring to play against and is soooo easy to play with...
i think the solution lies in doing something about Ariana/kun.. psychmelon and star aligner are ok imo...
Are you really sating that tutoring card in only ramping class in HS is not a problem? Juicy Psychmelon is overpowered. Its on broken levels, its so powerfull that UI is not played in Star Aligner decks.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Yes, I am exactly saying that. Think about it.. Without the Aviana-Kun combo psychmelon will not be a problem. Sure... It will net you 4 (really expensive) cards but there is no combo anymore and it will require you to build your deck VERY specifically. In the right deck it will still be powerful, yes, but not overpowered. Also UI will still be better for the majority of decks..
Aviana/KUN has been a problem now for a really long time (not only star aligner, but also the Malygos or Togwaggle decks).. Changing Aviana to a 'dreampetal florist'-like creature (i.e. your minions cost 7 less, but not less than 1) or something would leave the idea behind Aviana intact and would finally get rid of this crazy combo..
Seriously???
You understand the idea behind a forum, right? I do not agree to all of the arguments here, but I understand where they are coming from and at least people thought about them before posting. The only person 'whining and crying' about anything without any arguments seems to be you...
And please.. Nobody here is comparing anything with real world problems... This is just a forum...
Aviana/Kun deck became problem after printing of Melon. Before that Druid actually needed to find his combo and draw cards required for combo. Malygos and Togwaggle are not problematic at all. Star Aligner is: It has Naga Giant and Freezemage effect combined and all what you need to do is tutor the combo pieces with Melon while countering Rat with Pipers and other not that important cards.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Well, we both agree that the combination of avian-kun and psychmelon is definitely a problem. And either psychmelon or aviana-kun needs fixing. Where we disagree is to change Ariana-kun or psychmelon. My preference would be Ariana-kun:
If Ariana-kun would exist without psychmelon the deck would indeed be a lot worse because you will not find the Combo as quickly, But BEFORE psychmelon, togwaggle druid was definitely tier 1 (snapshot #18 tempostorm; and snapshot #17) and this made use of aviana-kun. There are also instances of maly-druid in the top tiers that rely on the same Combo. So, nerfing only psychmelon would still leave these decks.
if psychmelon would exist without Ariana-kun i don’t think there would be a problem because psychmelon decks rarely exist in standard format. Actually the idea behind psychmelon is pretty ok when it cannot find a OTK. There is nothing wrong with building a deck that relies on big creatures that cannot be played all at the same time without allowing the opponents to answer for it. If it was we would be having this discussion in the standard forum.
I wouldn't really rely on Tempostrom snapshots because they are too biased by contributors and they are missing a lot of things( at least in my humble opinion that I can explain if you are interested). The thing is that even though both Malygos and TogAzalina Druids were strong, they were not oppresive. They were not warping meta around them and they weren't close to Tier S as Star Aligner is. Star Aligner does that because of the fact that it can succesfully counter hand and deck disruption effects effectively enough to win while still being a solid good deck against other non-control matchups. That is the problem. So the deck needs some weakness. And the only hard hit that can affect it is Psychmelon. Aviana/Kun decks were there before, but they were not comboing you on turn 3 because of Biology Projects and Psychmelons.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Aviana should only effect one minion. Druid can still play jades, big dragons, tokens and whatnot. No need for that combo bs. How many OTKs can Aviana/Kun do now? 6? And the number will only increase!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I can't really agree with that being a problem. Emperor Thaurassan also enables combo decks (which I am fine with), which results in many more druid restricted combo decks than Aviana & Kun enable. And Emperor will always enable more combo decks than Aviana Kun. If T5 doesn't mind Emperor after all of this time why should Aviana Kun be any different?
yeah aviana and kun are fine. problem cards are UI, plague, branching paths, and melon. druid should not have the best ramp, draw/tutoring, and stall in the game, as well as having the strongest combo finishers.
After playing Star Aligner druid for a fair number of games, some counters are there! I have lost to:
-Even shaman: as soon as a big guy survives, it is time for Widfury, and some times Devolve to get through taunts. This is probably the strongest Wild deck. Druid can win with good draws, though!
-OTK mage: Ice block and freeze can be difficult to deal with! Some tech vs secrets.
-Any deck with Coldlight Oracle. If you don't get an early Melon out, there is a high chance your win condition will turn to dust to your right. Even if you do get the draw, they can still mill key pieces like Brann, especially since your hand will be full of expensive cards. Kingsbane and Mill rogue do this especially well.
-Aggro: won't give you time to ramp and draw.
-Big priest: Depeds a lot on the melon and what minions he gets. I usually don't kill his res guys, but he might do it himself...
And then there are the hand and deck disruption tech cards. With nut draws and full combo going off on turn 5-6, no deck has a chance, though!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide