I am intending to keep pressure on Blizzard to nerf the card, as the response made by Mike Donais left me less than satisfied, particularly in his comment that other cards needed to be looked at along with Naga Sea Witch.
Honestly, in my opinion, Naga Sea Witch is the only offender, with the Giant deductions never being addressed by Blizzard for over eight months, as only Aggro Paladin has any hope of consistently beating Giantlock in Wild. My belief being that nerfing Naga Sea Witch would be a huge step in fixing the Wild format.
How I would adjust Naga Sea Witch would have her rule text say that your cards cost EXACTLY 5 mana. By EXACTLY, I mean her effect would totally negate the discount abilities of the Giants, meaning that a Giant can't be cast for free for 0 mana. The broken Giant package would be a a thing of the past.
Here's where I want to hear from the community. Attached to this thread is a poll whether you agree with Naga Sea Witch being nerfed or not. I want to hear from the community WHY it should be nerfed. I want you all to bring in as many people as you possibly can to respond to this thread so Blizzard knows how much of a problem this card is, because I believe it to be important that we should be able to fix problem cards like this in the future in such a fashion, as well as to dissuade Hearthstone for letting a card devastate a format like this card has.
In advance, I thank you all for responding to this poll.
i fucking hate that it's that strong..I know wild has some pretty strong cards..but fucking naga is the strongest..you cant fight giants with any deck except druid with those destroy all minions and transfrom them into trees bullshit
The issue with Naga Sea Witch is simply it was buffed. Naga Sea Witch was completely different until they patched it and "fixed" the mana reduction.
They should have leaved it alone, then there wouldn't be any issue: And for people who does not know what i meaned: Every card with her on the field costed 5 mana, period.
Right now it is OP, and blizzard know it. But since they hate wild (since people spend less money there and they love it when rotation hits, since people then are forced to buy packs), they will not nerf it in the near future.
All they have to do is revert Naga to how it was; it worked fine then. It's been messed up for months and they don't care. When it was pointed out to them on reddit, they didn't know what the community was even talking about, and then after they realized what they'd accidentally done, they pretended they'd meant to do it all along. (they'd changed some Bright-Eyed Scout interaction and broke Naga at the same time)
They changed it to be "more consistent with similiar effects", but they were completely oblivious to the archetype it spawned. I think they are too stubborn to admit their mistake, and will leave it as it is.
I have literally never seen a Giant Warlock who does not have a Witch by turn 6. Between mulligan, 6 card draws at the beginning of the turn, and Life Tap, you are almost guaranteed to have it by the time you need it.
The only things that can deal with them are Brawl (which sees little play), Lightbomb (which also sees little play) and Poison Seeds. Vanish will only stall it for 1 more turn, and even Shadowreaper Anduin is too slow.
Spiteful summoner 2.0 for Wild. 5 mana 53/53 if you fill the board with giants
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"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."
I think Naga needs to be nerfed. I'm currently Rank 3 in Wild. Made Rank 1 last month, and have been at least rank 5 nearly every month in Wild since the format was created. I play a lot of the format and feel qualified to speak on the matter. It's oppressive, has been for awhile, and it's just unfun to play against (and play with as someone who has done so often).
Now, to speak to Donais' point, I also believe several cards need to be looked at seriously: Call to Arms, Kabal Lackey, Voidcaller, and Barnes specifically (Raza and Patches both made this list pre-nerf). I'm not saying all or any of these cards need a nerf, but they highlight an issue that Wild has been struggling with for a long time now...
An issue that makes the format both powerful, but also very swingy and often unfun. All these cards eschew mana costs and skirts the driving force for balance in the game: the mana system. The reason Naga, Call, Lackies, and Barnes form the foundation of so many decks is because they allow the player to play cards many turns ahead of schedule without losing tempo. They also cut down on future design space by the very limits of thier design.
Personally i think void caller and possessed lackey needs mana restriction on them.maybe something like 2 mana more than their cost so when they cheat mana it isnt an insane amount. voidcaller ship 5 mana and lackey 4 since, 2 the good demons cost 9. Malganis/voidlord isnt that strong but an t4/5 one is
The mana cheating on malganis/voidlord help mitigate the decks bad draws. were they cant fill the board thus making it more consistent. the package is also strong and help to buy time.
Naga Giant decks are as close to a "push button; win game" deck as you can get in this game. Naga almost always comes down on turn 5 and then immediately floods the board with giants. only 3 classes have a single card (Poison Seeds, Brawl, and Lightbomb) that can deal with this kind of board-state on-curve (and only one of which actually clears the board), and 3 more have a 2-card combo that could also work (Wild Pyromancer + Equality, Frost Nova + Doomsayer, Bloodbloom + Twisting Nether). But 2-card combos are unreliable, and not worth putting in your deck simply to counter a bullshit strategy to begin with.
For Hunter, Shaman, Rogue, the game just ends on turn 5... either they were an aggro deck and managed to find lethal, or the giants just stomp their heads in on the next turn.
I honestly don't know how the Naga interaction is still in the game. It is 100x worse than pre-nerf quest rogue, which was nerfed simply because people hated playing against it.
Do you people complaining about Naga Play wild? There are not even that many people playing that deck because it is not even that good.
Yah, Naga Giants is super busted OP! You know what else is super busted OP in Wild! Literally everything! That is the point of Wild. lol
Check out HS replay deck stats. There are a handful of Naga Warlocks on there with high win rates but they are surrounded by a ton of other OP crap that also has exactly as high a win rate. The whole first page is pretty much just Pally. If anything needs to get nerfed it is Call to Win Game Now.
Win rate isn't the only concern. It's just extremely frustrating to be put in a situation where you just lose the game unless you find a very specific counter card by turn 5. Counters that don't even exist in every class.
And unlike cards like Barnes, Naga Sea Witch never worked this way while it was in Standard. The first time I saw the new behavior, I thought it was a bug. So it's not a case of Wild naturally having a higher power level because you can pick from the most powerful cards of all sets.
I agree there are other cards that could use balance changes, but those don't interact with the naga giants combination in any meaningful way, so they are not a valid reason to delay a change to Naga.
Dane, a streamer who plays Wild almost exclusively, also recently made a case for changing Naga: (first 3.5 minute of the video)
According to hsreplay.net, the best Naga Sea Witch decks in the Legend-to-Rank-5 bracket over the last 7 days are topping out around 60% WR, which is just below top-tier. The best Paladin, Rogue, and Shaman decks are above that.
The decks shown below, top-down, are a token Pally, an Odd Rogue, an Even Shaman, a dude Pally, and then three Warlock decks which are are the same Naga deck with slight variations in their early-game. Judging by games played that Even Shammy is more of a thing than Naga Warlock, at least in L-5.
Shudderwock means driving a clown car in circles around your opponent while he swings his sword at you. Half the time he chops you and your car to pieces. The other half you park on his legs and 40 clowns come out one by one, trampling him to death.
Do you people complaining about Naga Play wild? There are not even that many people playing that deck because it is not even that good.
Yah, Naga Giants is super busted OP! You know what else is super busted OP in Wild! Literally everything! That is the point of Wild. lol
Check out HS replay deck stats. There are a handful of Naga Warlocks on there with high win rates but they are surrounded by a ton of other OP crap that also has exactly as high a win rate. The whole first page is pretty much just Pally. If anything needs to get nerfed it is Call to Win Game Now.
And here someone who talks absolute BS. Wild was pretty balanced before Naga Sea Witch was played. Shaman was played, Hunter was played, there were MANY more decks before it, AND NOTHING WAS BUSTED. Yes there was always a strong deck, but that's what we call META.
Then Naga Sea Witch was buffed and OBTILERATED all decks that couldn't deal with TONS OF GIANTS. Midrange was DEAD as Shaman and other decks.
It's not about the winrate, but that this archetype KILLED an whole archetype called midrange. Ok, Midrange is in Standard dead too, but that's because blizzard don't print midrange-minions anymore.
Everyone is complaining about Spiteful Summoner: now think of a minion that cost 1 less, have +1/+1 in stats and guarantees you to summon 8/8 multiple times for discarding your hand. If you deal with it with Lightbomb for example, great, you probably won the game, but the classes that can't deal with it, can simply retire the game.
I have not played a single Wild game since they changed Naga Sea Witch, and as long as it remains as it is now, I will never play another game. Only complete idiots that can't actually play the game in a real way play Naga decks. The card is AWFUL for the game. Period.
According to hsreplay.net, the best Naga Sea Witch decks in the Legend-to-Rank-5 bracket over the last 7 days are topping out around 60% WR, which is just below top-tier. The best Paladin, Rogue, and Shaman decks are above that.
Its not about whether the deck has high winrate or not. Its making ALOT of decks not viable, basically if you cant kill face before turn 5 you need to have a counter like poison seeds, lightbomb, brawl, kazakus etc. if not then you just concede. Yes giants has low winrate because of aggro, but think about how many more decks will be viable if they fix sea witch. You need to be able to make a midrange, combo or control deck without asking the question of how do u beat giants on 5?
It took like 2 years for the first card change in wild (the molten change), I wouldn't hold my breath expecting action on this any time soon. Think about the cards that have been a problem in standard - even the ones they acted on fastest still took 3 months to see changes. Now think about how little Team 5 care about wild compared to standard and try and figure out how long it will be before they get round to making even a straightforward change like this.
Even after all this time of people asking for it to be changed back we're only at the utterly non-commital "we might change this if it becomes a problem" stage (as if it isn't a blatant issue already). The real question is whether it's an issue of incompetence of if they're actively trying to force people into standard (where they can't rely on their old cards and need new ones).
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Hello there. About two weeks ago, I made a Reddit thread with over 3000 likes detailing the need for Naga Sea Witch to be nerfed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/8af9w8/its_time_to_nerf_naga_sea_witch_blizzard/
I am intending to keep pressure on Blizzard to nerf the card, as the response made by Mike Donais left me less than satisfied, particularly in his comment that other cards needed to be looked at along with Naga Sea Witch.
Honestly, in my opinion, Naga Sea Witch is the only offender, with the Giant deductions never being addressed by Blizzard for over eight months, as only Aggro Paladin has any hope of consistently beating Giantlock in Wild. My belief being that nerfing Naga Sea Witch would be a huge step in fixing the Wild format.
How I would adjust Naga Sea Witch would have her rule text say that your cards cost EXACTLY 5 mana. By EXACTLY, I mean her effect would totally negate the discount abilities of the Giants, meaning that a Giant can't be cast for free for 0 mana. The broken Giant package would be a a thing of the past.
Here's where I want to hear from the community. Attached to this thread is a poll whether you agree with Naga Sea Witch being nerfed or not. I want to hear from the community WHY it should be nerfed. I want you all to bring in as many people as you possibly can to respond to this thread so Blizzard knows how much of a problem this card is, because I believe it to be important that we should be able to fix problem cards like this in the future in such a fashion, as well as to dissuade Hearthstone for letting a card devastate a format like this card has.
In advance, I thank you all for responding to this poll.
i fucking hate that it's that strong..I know wild has some pretty strong cards..but fucking naga is the strongest..you cant fight giants with any deck except druid with those destroy all minions and transfrom them into trees bullshit
The issue with Naga Sea Witch is simply it was buffed. Naga Sea Witch was completely different until they patched it and "fixed" the mana reduction.
They should have leaved it alone, then there wouldn't be any issue: And for people who does not know what i meaned: Every card with her on the field costed 5 mana, period.
Right now it is OP, and blizzard know it. But since they hate wild (since people spend less money there and they love it when rotation hits, since people then are forced to buy packs), they will not nerf it in the near future.
All they have to do is revert Naga to how it was; it worked fine then. It's been messed up for months and they don't care. When it was pointed out to them on reddit, they didn't know what the community was even talking about, and then after they realized what they'd accidentally done, they pretended they'd meant to do it all along. (they'd changed some Bright-Eyed Scout interaction and broke Naga at the same time)
They changed it to be "more consistent with similiar effects", but they were completely oblivious to the archetype it spawned. I think they are too stubborn to admit their mistake, and will leave it as it is.
I have literally never seen a Giant Warlock who does not have a Witch by turn 6. Between mulligan, 6 card draws at the beginning of the turn, and Life Tap, you are almost guaranteed to have it by the time you need it.
The only things that can deal with them are Brawl (which sees little play), Lightbomb (which also sees little play) and Poison Seeds. Vanish will only stall it for 1 more turn, and even Shadowreaper Anduin is too slow.
Spiteful summoner 2.0 for Wild. 5 mana 53/53 if you fill the board with giants
"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."
I think Naga needs to be nerfed. I'm currently Rank 3 in Wild. Made Rank 1 last month, and have been at least rank 5 nearly every month in Wild since the format was created. I play a lot of the format and feel qualified to speak on the matter. It's oppressive, has been for awhile, and it's just unfun to play against (and play with as someone who has done so often).
Now, to speak to Donais' point, I also believe several cards need to be looked at seriously: Call to Arms, Kabal Lackey, Voidcaller, and Barnes specifically (Raza and Patches both made this list pre-nerf). I'm not saying all or any of these cards need a nerf, but they highlight an issue that Wild has been struggling with for a long time now...
An issue that makes the format both powerful, but also very swingy and often unfun. All these cards eschew mana costs and skirts the driving force for balance in the game: the mana system. The reason Naga, Call, Lackies, and Barnes form the foundation of so many decks is because they allow the player to play cards many turns ahead of schedule without losing tempo. They also cut down on future design space by the very limits of thier design.
My two cents anyways.
Just delete this fucking card and be done with it. It literally does 0 positive things for the game.
Put 2 Dire Moles in your deck and your opponent wont stand a chance. Will likely concede as soon as it drops.
Personally i think void caller and possessed lackey needs mana restriction on them.maybe something like 2 mana more than their cost so when they cheat mana it isnt an insane amount. voidcaller ship 5 mana and lackey 4 since, 2 the good demons cost 9. Malganis/voidlord isnt that strong but an t4/5 one is
The mana cheating on malganis/voidlord help mitigate the decks bad draws. were they cant fill the board thus making it more consistent. the package is also strong and help to buy time.
Agree its pathetic and uninteractive but i beat them all with my highlander reno warlock (i rope every turn)
Naga Giant decks are as close to a "push button; win game" deck as you can get in this game. Naga almost always comes down on turn 5 and then immediately floods the board with giants. only 3 classes have a single card (Poison Seeds, Brawl, and Lightbomb) that can deal with this kind of board-state on-curve (and only one of which actually clears the board), and 3 more have a 2-card combo that could also work (Wild Pyromancer + Equality, Frost Nova + Doomsayer, Bloodbloom + Twisting Nether). But 2-card combos are unreliable, and not worth putting in your deck simply to counter a bullshit strategy to begin with.
For Hunter, Shaman, Rogue, the game just ends on turn 5... either they were an aggro deck and managed to find lethal, or the giants just stomp their heads in on the next turn.
I honestly don't know how the Naga interaction is still in the game. It is 100x worse than pre-nerf quest rogue, which was nerfed simply because people hated playing against it.
It is their strategy and as krip said because fck wild dude .
All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them.
Do you people complaining about Naga Play wild? There are not even that many people playing that deck because it is not even that good.
Yah, Naga Giants is super busted OP! You know what else is super busted OP in Wild! Literally everything! That is the point of Wild. lol
Check out HS replay deck stats. There are a handful of Naga Warlocks on there with high win rates but they are surrounded by a ton of other OP crap that also has exactly as high a win rate. The whole first page is pretty much just Pally. If anything needs to get nerfed it is Call to Win Game Now.
Win rate isn't the only concern. It's just extremely frustrating to be put in a situation where you just lose the game unless you find a very specific counter card by turn 5. Counters that don't even exist in every class.
And unlike cards like Barnes, Naga Sea Witch never worked this way while it was in Standard. The first time I saw the new behavior, I thought it was a bug. So it's not a case of Wild naturally having a higher power level because you can pick from the most powerful cards of all sets.
I agree there are other cards that could use balance changes, but those don't interact with the naga giants combination in any meaningful way, so they are not a valid reason to delay a change to Naga.
Dane, a streamer who plays Wild almost exclusively, also recently made a case for changing Naga: (first 3.5 minute of the video)
According to hsreplay.net, the best Naga Sea Witch decks in the Legend-to-Rank-5 bracket over the last 7 days are topping out around 60% WR, which is just below top-tier. The best Paladin, Rogue, and Shaman decks are above that.
The decks shown below, top-down, are a token Pally, an Odd Rogue, an Even Shaman, a dude Pally, and then three Warlock decks which are are the same Naga deck with slight variations in their early-game. Judging by games played that Even Shammy is more of a thing than Naga Warlock, at least in L-5.
Shudderwock means driving a clown car in circles around your opponent while he swings his sword at you. Half the time he chops you and your car to pieces. The other half you park on his legs and 40 clowns come out one by one, trampling him to death.
Whizbang Strategy Reference -- update complete for Rastakhan's Rumble!
I have not played a single Wild game since they changed Naga Sea Witch, and as long as it remains as it is now, I will never play another game. Only complete idiots that can't actually play the game in a real way play Naga decks. The card is AWFUL for the game. Period.
It took like 2 years for the first card change in wild (the molten change), I wouldn't hold my breath expecting action on this any time soon. Think about the cards that have been a problem in standard - even the ones they acted on fastest still took 3 months to see changes. Now think about how little Team 5 care about wild compared to standard and try and figure out how long it will be before they get round to making even a straightforward change like this.
Even after all this time of people asking for it to be changed back we're only at the utterly non-commital "we might change this if it becomes a problem" stage (as if it isn't a blatant issue already). The real question is whether it's an issue of incompetence of if they're actively trying to force people into standard (where they can't rely on their old cards and need new ones).