I have seen it played and watched a few videos. Sure it can be powerful. It can also loose real hard when your board gets wiped and you no longer have a hand or a way to play said giants in future turns.
Like I said, rolls hard, gets rolled hard. This is particularly true in wild.
Well, I'm just going to leave this comment (from another thread discussing this same topic) made by the user Meneldor, as a reply to your comment:
Yeah you can play Lightbomb or Pyro+Equality or Doomsayer+Frost Nova but what about other classes. If you match Naga Hunter deck as Rogue, Druid, Shaman, Hunter (without Naga) or Warlock if you pull off combo before turn 8 then you instantly loose. That's why this interaction is broken. Plus you can play it with literaly every class. It's only that Hunter is best at it. That ruins game and needs to be removed asap. This is worse than pw or murloc pala lethals on turn 5 because you can't really interact with your opponent's Nagas and Giants before they are ready for play. So we are again coming to situation: if you have answer on THAT turn and no later than that you loose, if you have it you win. Now tell me that sounds fun to you.
P.S. this is response for everyone saying Naga+Giants are not big problem
I have seen it played and watched a few videos. Sure it can be powerful. It can also loose real hard when your board gets wiped and you no longer have a hand or a way to play said giants in future turns.
Like I said, rolls hard, gets rolled hard. This is particularly true in wild.
Who wants to play games like that though where you either win or lose in such a manner where it's dependent on one (or 2) card(s). It's 100% not satisfying to play against; I also can't imagine it's much fun to play.
It's so polarizing as to be obnoxious...
Also Druid or "smart" players can easily reload. It's more resilient than people give it credit for.
I have seen it played and watched a few videos. Sure it can be powerful. It can also loose real hard when your board gets wiped and you no longer have a hand or a way to play said giants in future turns.
Like I said, rolls hard, gets rolled hard. This is particularly true in wild.
Well, I'm just going to leave this comment (from another thread discussing this same topic) made by the user Meneldor, as a reply to your comment:
Yeah you can play Lightbomb or Pyro+Equality or Doomsayer+Frost Nova but what about other classes. If you match Naga Hunter deck as Rogue, Druid, Shaman, Hunter (without Naga) or Warlock if you pull off combo before turn 8 then you instantly loose. That's why this interaction is broken. Plus you can play it with literaly every class. It's only that Hunter is best at it. That ruins game and needs to be removed asap. This is worse than pw or murloc pala lethals on turn 5 because you can't really interact with your opponent's Nagas and Giants before they are ready for play. So we are again coming to situation: if you have answer on THAT turn and no later than that you loose, if you have it you win. Now tell me that sounds fun to you.
P.S. this is response for everyone saying Naga+Giants are not big problem
Yeah, it comes down to the fact that even if it's not explicitly overpowered, games become less, if at ALL about skill, and more about: does he have Naga + X amt of giants turn 4 or 5, if yes, does the opponent have an answer. If the do they win, if they don't they lose. It's not skillful gameplay, it's, "do you have an answer," which just isn't fun. If I was up against this and happened to have brawl or pyro equality when it gets played, great. I Guess I win. literally no skill involved. Its just about having the answer.
tldr, It's less about the deck being overpowered, which I'm not confident it even is, and more about the fact that this kind of gameplay of, "If you have an answer you win" is unhealthy.
I have seen it played and watched a few videos. Sure it can be powerful. It can also loose real hard when your board gets wiped and you no longer have a hand or a way to play said giants in future turns.
Like I said, rolls hard, gets rolled hard. This is particularly true in wild.
Well, I'm just going to leave this comment (from another thread discussing this same topic) made by the user Meneldor, as a reply to your comment:
Yeah you can play Lightbomb or Pyro+Equality or Doomsayer+Frost Nova but what about other classes. If you match Naga Hunter deck as Rogue, Druid, Shaman, Hunter (without Naga) or Warlock if you pull off combo before turn 8 then you instantly loose. That's why this interaction is broken. Plus you can play it with literaly every class. It's only that Hunter is best at it. That ruins game and needs to be removed asap. This is worse than pw or murloc pala lethals on turn 5 because you can't really interact with your opponent's Nagas and Giants before they are ready for play. So we are again coming to situation: if you have answer on THAT turn and no later than that you loose, if you have it you win. Now tell me that sounds fun to you.
P.S. this is response for everyone saying Naga+Giants are not big problem
Yeah I read that comment. Regurgitating others arguments isn't really convincing me here. Like I said, sometimes you just get rolled hard when a deck is strong counter to yours. It's been this way in wild forever. Hell in the video you posted it's hard to understate how low ranks and bad cards killed the opponents more often than kripp's crazy giants. 3 of those aggro decks, if they had the right cards and were piloted a bit better could have easily stomped him out. This deck looks like it gets pretty wrecked by super aggressive agro or any class that has a clear. That ends up being a lot of decks and classes that could "deal with it".
I have seen it played and watched a few videos. Sure it can be powerful. It can also loose real hard when your board gets wiped and you no longer have a hand or a way to play said giants in future turns.
Like I said, rolls hard, gets rolled hard. This is particularly true in wild.
Well, I'm just going to leave this comment (from another thread discussing this same topic) made by the user Meneldor, as a reply to your comment:
Yeah you can play Lightbomb or Pyro+Equality or Doomsayer+Frost Nova but what about other classes. If you match Naga Hunter deck as Rogue, Druid, Shaman, Hunter (without Naga) or Warlock if you pull off combo before turn 8 then you instantly loose. That's why this interaction is broken. Plus you can play it with literaly every class. It's only that Hunter is best at it. That ruins game and needs to be removed asap. This is worse than pw or murloc pala lethals on turn 5 because you can't really interact with your opponent's Nagas and Giants before they are ready for play. So we are again coming to situation: if you have answer on THAT turn and no later than that you loose, if you have it you win. Now tell me that sounds fun to you.
P.S. this is response for everyone saying Naga+Giants are not big problem
Yeah, it comes down to the fact that even if it's not explicitly overpowered, games become less, if at ALL about skill, and more about: does he have Naga + X amt of giants turn 4 or 5, if yes, does the opponent have an answer. If the do they win, if they don't they lose. It's not skillful gameplay, it's, "do you have an answer," which just isn't fun. If I was up against this and happened to have brawl or pyro equality when it gets played, great. I Guess I win. literally no skill involved. Its just about having the answer.
tldr, It's less about the deck being overpowered, which I'm not confident it even is, and more about the fact that this kind of gameplay of, "If you have an answer you win" is unhealthy.
I find this argument to be pretty compelling. Although you could say this about a lot of different things in this games. Far too often games in Hearthstone are simply "do they have an answer". However this deck does seem to boil it all down to one moment where there is no interaction or positioning to get there. There isn't any sort of play going on where you put something out where they have to decide to go face or trade because they will just simply kill you.
Again though I find "cheap" stuff like this all the time in wild. Where you just get completely wrecked cause your deck had no way of dealing with whatever crazy wild BS they were doing. I think the giants just highlight that even more.
I think that this deck is bad for the game, I think most people agree. I believe it is absolutely counterable, and that oddly rogue is the best counter. rogue can actually clear board on turn 5 unlike priest which needs coin to. Pyro Plague doctor zero cost spell is a strong combination. plus you can stall extra turns with vanish and doomsayer until you draw a pyro a plague and a cheap spell. I personally would play more wild if I was not rank 18 in it, just because grinding with mill rogue takes a long while and it is worse when faced with low rank midrange decks. I might be enjoying wild more than standard though despite the toxicity of the giants decks. Mostly because Jade has longer games that are almost as bad, and wild has decks that I like the idea of a lot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
"Yeah, it comes down to the fact that even if it's not explicitly overpowered, games become less, if at ALL about skill, and more about: does he have a good aggro curve, if yes, does the opponent have an answer. If the do they win, if they don't they lose. It's not skillful gameplay, it's, "do you have an answer," which just isn't fun."
Aggro vs Control in a nutshell.
(At least the aggro deck is more interactive than the control deck, because the second one just hindering you to play a game by removing all your stuff with spells. With only a few Control decks being an exception.)
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
Thanks for all the answers and comments. If I understand all that has been said so far, it is basically:
1. It is good that Blizzard is revisiting and thinking about Wild format cards.
2. It is bad that Blizzard is revisiting and thinking about Wild format cards because it used to be fun before they thought about it.
3. The deck is powerful, but like many other OP decks in the game, very simple to play.
4. It is not fun to play against because it is all comes down to one or two moments at the game with very little interaction.
5. The reason you don't see it more in ladder is because it is super expensive deck.
6. It can be countered, you just need to pray you'll have the right answers at the right time.
currently I am 50% WR as a DK priest against the deck. Hopefully more discussions like that can help us all to play better and have better success against oppressive decks.
I have seen it played and watched a few videos. Sure it can be powerful. It can also loose real hard when your board gets wiped and you no longer have a hand or a way to play said giants in future turns.
Like I said, rolls hard, gets rolled hard. This is particularly true in wild.
Well, I'm just going to leave this comment (from another thread discussing this same topic) made by the user Meneldor, as a reply to your comment:
Yeah you can play Lightbomb or Pyro+Equality or Doomsayer+Frost Nova but what about other classes. If you match Naga Hunter deck as Rogue, Druid, Shaman, Hunter (without Naga) or Warlock if you pull off combo before turn 8 then you instantly loose. That's why this interaction is broken. Plus you can play it with literaly every class. It's only that Hunter is best at it. That ruins game and needs to be removed asap. This is worse than pw or murloc pala lethals on turn 5 because you can't really interact with your opponent's Nagas and Giants before they are ready for play. So we are again coming to situation: if you have answer on THAT turn and no later than that you loose, if you have it you win. Now tell me that sounds fun to you.
P.S. this is response for everyone saying Naga+Giants are not big problem
Yeah I read that comment. Regurgitating others arguments isn't really convincing me here. Like I said, sometimes you just get rolled hard when a deck is strong counter to yours. It's been this way in wild forever. Hell in the video you posted it's hard to understate how low ranks and bad cards killed the opponents more often than kripp's crazy giants. 3 of those aggro decks, if they had the right cards and were piloted a bit better could have easily stomped him out. This deck looks like it gets pretty wrecked by super aggressive agro or any class that has a clear. That ends up being a lot of decks and classes that could "deal with it".
Exactly. This isn't even limited to Wild. In the entier Un'Goro format, sometimes you would simply queue into a deck that beat you.
I'll still leave the door open for refined lists becoming a real problem. But right now, I think it's mostly just a high roll type deck.
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
To the people saying "I played 40 games and never had 3 giants on turn 5!", my first game I had coin naga 3x giants.
No, it doesn't happen thaaat often, but it's at least 1 in 10, and 1 in 3 to have turn 4/5/6 naga into 1-2 giants... it's consistent enough to be stupid.
I played it for a bit, felt bad because it was stupid, then went back to reno-cheese :D
7. It get crushed by aggro decks most of the time very easy.
In my eyes this deck is a way lesser problem than Big Priest in Standard.
I am not sure about the poor performance of the deck against aggro. Players who played it say that aggro needs a "god hand" in order to kill this deck in time. I am still asking around to make a final conclusion about that.
I played it for a bit, felt bad because it was stupid, then went back to reno-cheese :D
My kinda guy :)
how did you do with this deck against aggro? Is it really weak against aggressive decks?
I think I went 1 and 1, the win being from having good early removal and turn 4 coin naga 2x molten giants + 1x clockwork. It's certainly weak to aggro, but it's not fun to play OR play against, and it's strong enough and wins often enough to be a real pain.
I'm playing a Shaman version of this for fun (I don't have any Bright Eyed Scout and don't care enough about wild to craft it) and it seems pretty good. The Hunter version seems way better with tutor minions. Right now I'm just running even more big in the form of Flamewreathed Faceless and Earth Elemental and other overload cards. Just dump all the big on the board and attack face.
The overload cards to clash with the Naga / Giant synergy because it can clog up your mana turn 5, but realistically you don't always have the witch turn 5 so dumping out a 7/7 or 7/8 taunt is still pretty good and hard for most opponents to deal with.
It hasn't been fixed yet. Not as many people are using it now, and it's basically just hunters now, but it's still a serious problem.
A serious problem where? Rank 20?
I faced Naga-Hunter only 4 times the whole last month on the way to rank 5 and went 3-1 for me (and I only lost because of an awful draw in that one game). So I don't see, how this deck is a problem.
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
I'm not sure if it's an issue at rank 20 or not. Likely not, since even a bot would rank up further than that with it. (Let me know at the end of the season if it's a problem there) Anybody who has even the slightest knowledge of how to balance cards realizes that turn 6 giants lethal is unacceptable, especially when the only real "counterplay" is to win by turn 5. Blizzard doesn't seem to have figured out how much of a problem it is, but the winrate in the hands of a competent player is around 65%. I tested it for an evening one day and that was the result I got.
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tldr, It's less about the deck being overpowered, which I'm not confident it even is, and more about the fact that this kind of gameplay of, "If you have an answer you win" is unhealthy.
Why does Vicious Fledgling exist
I think that this deck is bad for the game, I think most people agree. I believe it is absolutely counterable, and that oddly rogue is the best counter. rogue can actually clear board on turn 5 unlike priest which needs coin to. Pyro Plague doctor zero cost spell is a strong combination. plus you can stall extra turns with vanish and doomsayer until you draw a pyro a plague and a cheap spell. I personally would play more wild if I was not rank 18 in it, just because grinding with mill rogue takes a long while and it is worse when faced with low rank midrange decks. I might be enjoying wild more than standard though despite the toxicity of the giants decks. Mostly because Jade has longer games that are almost as bad, and wild has decks that I like the idea of a lot.
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
"Yeah, it comes down to the fact that even if it's not explicitly overpowered, games become less, if at ALL about skill, and more about: does he have a good aggro curve, if yes, does the opponent have an answer. If the do they win, if they don't they lose. It's not skillful gameplay, it's, "do you have an answer," which just isn't fun."
Aggro vs Control in a nutshell.
(At least the aggro deck is more interactive than the control deck, because the second one just hindering you to play a game by removing all your stuff with spells. With only a few Control decks being an exception.)
Thanks for all the answers and comments. If I understand all that has been said so far, it is basically:
1. It is good that Blizzard is revisiting and thinking about Wild format cards.
2. It is bad that Blizzard is revisiting and thinking about Wild format cards because it used to be fun before they thought about it.
3. The deck is powerful, but like many other OP decks in the game, very simple to play.
4. It is not fun to play against because it is all comes down to one or two moments at the game with very little interaction.
5. The reason you don't see it more in ladder is because it is super expensive deck.
6. It can be countered, you just need to pray you'll have the right answers at the right time.
currently I am 50% WR as a DK priest against the deck. Hopefully more discussions like that can help us all to play better and have better success against oppressive decks.
@ZebZero: You forget 1,5 points:
5.2. And becaue it's too inconsistent.
7. It get crushed by aggro decks most of the time very easy.
In my eyes this deck is a way lesser problem than Big Priest in Standard.
Oh hai!
Nature is the Day.
Man is the Sun.
Woman is the Moon.
The Stone is the Sky.
The Art is the Way.
To the people saying "I played 40 games and never had 3 giants on turn 5!", my first game I had coin naga 3x giants.
No, it doesn't happen thaaat often, but it's at least 1 in 10, and 1 in 3 to have turn 4/5/6 naga into 1-2 giants... it's consistent enough to be stupid.
I played it for a bit, felt bad because it was stupid, then went back to reno-cheese :D
Ibn Fahd.
Ibn Fahd.
I'm playing a Shaman version of this for fun (I don't have any Bright Eyed Scout and don't care enough about wild to craft it) and it seems pretty good. The Hunter version seems way better with tutor minions. Right now I'm just running even more big in the form of Flamewreathed Faceless and Earth Elemental and other overload cards. Just dump all the big on the board and attack face.
The overload cards to clash with the Naga / Giant synergy because it can clog up your mana turn 5, but realistically you don't always have the witch turn 5 so dumping out a 7/7 or 7/8 taunt is still pretty good and hard for most opponents to deal with.
Catch me on YouTube and Twitch: https://www.youtube.com/c/Hindered https://www.twitch.tv/hindered_
My take on the Patches Raza Bonemare Creeper nerfs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wysTG125huM
So I've been out of the game for a while; did they change the naga/Giant interaction or does it still work?
It hasn't been fixed yet. Not as many people are using it now, and it's basically just hunters now, but it's still a serious problem.
I'm not sure if it's an issue at rank 20 or not. Likely not, since even a bot would rank up further than that with it. (Let me know at the end of the season if it's a problem there) Anybody who has even the slightest knowledge of how to balance cards realizes that turn 6 giants lethal is unacceptable, especially when the only real "counterplay" is to win by turn 5. Blizzard doesn't seem to have figured out how much of a problem it is, but the winrate in the hands of a competent player is around 65%. I tested it for an evening one day and that was the result I got.