...That's like saying you wouldn't mind getting pure dust and no packs ever from rewards.
I have 20,000 dust sitting around so I clearly don't care about any of this personally, but I do see how this could be severely discouraging for a good chunk of players.
My last 5 arena runs have averaged about 5 wins. You get better if you really work at it and focus on card to card synergy and what cards work well for each class. Yes, you have those runs where you face 3 ridiculous decks and go 0-2 wins, but you get better at reducing those. I recommend trying to stick to a class that you enjoy playing. There are a few classes that I am no good with, but I have played people that are masterful with them.
you completely missed his point, and you're not even a very good arena player... plenty of people on this forum are infinite, I wouldn't be surprised if the OP was.
I'm actually amused how many of the responses have been of the epeening "git gud nerd" variety.
Truth is I don't think having a self-sustaining win-rate in arena is even anything to brag about. It should be a given. It's not even remotely relevant to my point which is why I've just ignored those idiotic comments.
The easiest solution is to simply have the player check a box ([]Classic []GvG []TGT) before each arena run, or right before they unlock their reward. As it is though, it's actually more efficient to just grind gold on ladder and buy the pack you want directly.
Why are you even thinking about stuff like that? You're taking the game way too seriously.
The reason why arena gives you a random pack, is because Blizzard didn't want to overcomplicate things for newer players. That is the official reason. They did not want new players to think about which pack would be best for them.
From what I know the official reason for them not implementing more deck slots, was again, because they didn't want to overcomplicate things. They've backtracked from that statement after a backlash from the fans, but you get the point.
Blizzard does not care about what you think is the best for the players. All Blizzard cares about is to offer you this simple, casual card game, which gives you new cards every now and then and even more content if you pay for it. Period.
Funny thing is I couldn't really care less about the deck slot "issue". That doesn't affect the actual game very much, it's a minor annoyance at most. Yet there was a "backlash" over it and I'm the one taking the game too seriously?
This is an issue that actually effects players' ability to collect cards and stay current with the meta. I would think that would be more important than deck slots.
...That's like saying you wouldn't mind getting pure dust and no packs ever from rewards.
I have 20,000 dust sitting around so I clearly don't care about any of this personally, but I do see how this could be severely discouraging for a good chunk of players.
I mean, unless you have a really barren collection, the chances to pull the cards you want from packs are slim to none. The thrill of opening cards is why you wouldn't want pure dust though. There's always that chance that you get a legendary in a pack which is thrilling even for those with massive collections containing nearly every card.
Soooooo you do see why it can be discouraging or you don't?
I'm saying it's completely a mental thing and doesn't actually affect anyone who has a reasonable collection or no collection at all (only a very specific sub group of people). Try using the quote function though. I'm not sure if you are replying or not.
Of course this is great for Blizzard because it incentivises people to simply buy packs with real money, but for the player it takes away what was the most efficient f2p method for collecting cards.
Blizzard makes games to make money, plain and simple. They are not going to make it easy or quick to build a collection without paying money because if it was then they would make very little money on the game. This is certainly a blow to people grinding f2p collections, and that is exactly what Blizzard wanted to do. It makes sense from a business perspective, even if it will likely cause people to play less arena which is one of their biggest money makers in the game.
It's ultimately bad for the player, but it is good for Blizzard (at least in the short term), so obviously they are not going to see it as a problem so there is no solution needed in their eyes.
Games don't make money if players aren't enjoying them.
Of course this is great for Blizzard because it incentivises people to simply buy packs with real money, but for the player it takes away what was the most efficient f2p method for collecting cards.
Blizzard makes games to make money, plain and simple. They are not going to make it easy or quick to build a collection without paying money because if it was then they would make very little money on the game. This is certainly a blow to people grinding f2p collections, and that is exactly what Blizzard wanted to do. It makes sense from a business perspective, even if it will likely cause people to play less arena which is one of their biggest money makers in the game.
It's ultimately bad for the player, but it is good for Blizzard (at least in the short term), so obviously they are not going to see it as a problem so there is no solution needed in their eyes.
Games don't make money if players aren't enjoying them.
That's true, but players are enjoying Hearthstone, and the change to arena will likely help that because it is a better system than what we had before. It may not be the system that everyone wants, but it's not going to lower the enjoyment that the players were having before the change.
There is a percentages of players chart that shows all the arena win percentages. You guys may be good at arena but based on the stats you're advising others to arena so you can get easy wins. 12 wins was like rank 5 and higher 2% of player base. I only do arena if I feel like playing 3-9 games and getting a pack and stuff. The experience varies wildly call me a scrub or bad player with my 6-3 drafts or 1-3's they can happen. Sometimes I'd rather just use my gold on a pack or two other times I draft. I will say it gets old playing against Mage 80% of the time or paladin now, many get broken draft options. You get a good class and a decent to good draft you can still get rekt by bad start/draw and or insane card pool of opponents as well as the usual factors.
great for new players is patent bull s hit.
Knowledge and experience goes a long way and frankly you make the 5 win average sound bad but percentage of gross players entering arena it's very good mathematically. It's not legend in ranked constructed equivalent like most of you 'lite arena players but don't try to fool anyone that even trading your 150 gold for 2 packs, 1 random for your hour or two of time is a non decision.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Name dropping is not a good thing to do. Robert DeNiro told me that." - Bob Saget
Not true. it's about 90 dust per pack, so if you average 5 wins it'll still be worth your while.
I kind of doubt it's 90 dust on average
Average card pack is actually about 107 dust in all sets if you disenchant everything. Most packs will be 40 dust yes, but because sometimes you get legendaries, epics and golden cards, over large sample sizes it's actually ~107.
Depending on how well you do on average, you also get extra dust from rewards either by simply getting dust or cards, often golden. For a strong arena player who often gets 7+ wins for bigger rewards, I would assume the extra value from rewards per run on average is about 30-50 dust. Again not always you get like a golden common as reward(50 dust), but the few times when you get smth really nice, let's say a golden epic for example(400 dust), it really pushes up the average.
Rest depends on how much value average TGT pack has for you. For example, someone who doesn't have a single TGT card, the avg value of first ever TGT pack will be ~450 dust since all the cards will be new. Even worst case if it's 4 commons 1 rare(4*45+100) it is 280 dust, aye, and on avg it's about 450. But that number drops very fast once you get most of the commons and many rares. Once you have opened about 50 TGT packs, avg pack value will probably be somewhere at around 250 dust since vast majority of the commons will be duplicates now and rares often too. After about 100 packs from a small set like TGT, you average pack value will be down to about 200 dust since you have very likely all the commons, almost all the rares, and even epics can start hitting duplicates more often. After that it drops really slow ofc. For example in GvG, it think I opened about 250-300 GvG packs I'd estimate. With extra dust it was actually more than enough to craft the whole GvG set, but because I haven't crafted any GvG cards, I'm still missing 14/52 GvG epics and 7/20 GvG legendaries, meaning the avg dust value of every GvG card pack I might get from arena is still 130.2 dust.
Anyways depending on how far you are with your TGT collection, if every TGT pack is worth 400, 300 or 200 dust for you, if you do well in arena to play as much as you'd want, it is still profit. Assuming avg TGT pack being 300 dust for you, other two 107 if you have All the other cards, average pack is still about 171 dust. Assume extra rewards like golden cards etc, and avg run will be still 200 free dust of effort for you assuming you break even in gold. So assuming 1.5h long avg arena run(7 avg player, 7-3 run, 10 games total, 9 mins avg game 90 mins total with breaks and ques), you could think of arena as 130 dust per hour 'effort' in terms of playing it and profits. Yes it's much less than if you could choose your own packs, but I guess still better than nothing :P
You forgot to factor the gold you're not getting by playing arena instead of constructed (10g per 3 wins, 100g cap per day). Constructed games tend to be quicker, but win-rates are lower, so probably wins per hour is about the same, I would guess. So if you're getting 7 wins per 1.5 hours in arena, we can assume you'd be getting about that in constructed. 7 wins = ~23 gold, or little less than 1/4 of a pack. If we're saying TGT packs are worth ~300 dust that translates to ~75 dust. 130 - 75 = 55 dust per hour in arena vs playing constructed. Then there's the end-season reward, 500+ dust for reaching rank 5 or higher, which we can say is another 10 dust per hour, bringing arena profit down to 45 dpr over constructed.
So yeah, I guess there is still technically a reason to play arena, but it's quite a meager one. The real problem, as I see it, is that because card-collecting efficiency is way down, people will have less gold saved up for future expansions (cards, gold, and dust are all effectively interchangeable, just different ways of measuring a player's resources). So even though this might not seem like a big deal right now, next expansion or the one after that it definitely will be. Hearthstone has done a pretty good job up until now of balancing f2p vs p2w, but now I think that balance has been thrown out of whack with the most efficient f2p method of collecting cards being severely gimped. I know there's a number of players who wouldn't mind a p2w model, but there's a far greater number who would.
I feel like the picking of which pack you would like would be a much better format, but most of the players don't have every card in any set so this was their solution, to give random packs. And arena is definitely the way to go if you can manage to go infinite runs. You are getting good gold and a pack for a reasonably fun time.
I don't think the random packs reward is the biggest problem, it's just the arena reward in general. I'm an infinite F2P arena player, I don't buy packs and I don't craft cards (got over 100k dust saved up) but I still have most of the normal cards and a ton of golden cards from just the arena rewards. I'm only happy with 8+ wins cause that's when you can get golden cards as a reward, but even at that win rate you can get normal rares or epics which is a joke. OK so let's say you managed to get 11-12 wins, well too bad, your reward is most of the time something like 400 gold and 1-2 packs which is completely useless for me. I don't need gold and packs very rarely give me any new cards, only TGT packs have a decent chance of doing so. The arena reward likes to throw golden commons at you now and then but once you've gotten like 50% of the golden commons as well things just get frustrating when you get your 9th golden copy of a card. I mean it was bad already pre-TGT but now with random packs it feels like I'm just wasting time cause finishing a 12 win run doesn't take just a few minutes.
So here's what I think is a good solution for arena rewards:
1. Instead of giving out random cards, let the player choose between like 3 cards of the same rarity that you were rewarded 2. Remove non-golden cards cause people are gonna get em all from packs anyway at some point. I mean the season rank rewards are all golden cards so why not? 3. Give out more pure dust, preferably instead of stuff like non-golden cards cause the amount of dust you get right now is laughable 4. And most obviously let the player choose which pack he wants, it's not fun opening packs when you have 99% of the cards from that set
TLDR; Getting a full golden collection as a F2P player is not possible anymore with the current reward system, I know me and a few other arena players were not that far away from getting a full collection at one point, but now with TGT and more sets coming out faster than you can collect dust I've realized there's just no point trying anymore, even if you're playing arena all day like a mad man it won't happen.
^ I don't think Blizzard really cares about people like you (who have a massive collection and are infinite). Most players are not in the same position as you either.
You get dust even if you don't get the right pack, so I don't see the issue. You are likely not getting the cards you want from packs anyway.
...That's like saying you wouldn't mind getting pure dust and no packs ever from rewards.
I have 20,000 dust sitting around so I clearly don't care about any of this personally, but I do see how this could be severely discouraging for a good chunk of players.
you completely missed his point, and you're not even a very good arena player... plenty of people on this forum are infinite, I wouldn't be surprised if the OP was.
Han Solo dies
I'm actually amused how many of the responses have been of the epeening "git gud nerd" variety.
Truth is I don't think having a self-sustaining win-rate in arena is even anything to brag about. It should be a given. It's not even remotely relevant to my point which is why I've just ignored those idiotic comments.
Funny thing is I couldn't really care less about the deck slot "issue". That doesn't affect the actual game very much, it's a minor annoyance at most. Yet there was a "backlash" over it and I'm the one taking the game too seriously?
This is an issue that actually effects players' ability to collect cards and stay current with the meta. I would think that would be more important than deck slots.
I mean, unless you have a really barren collection, the chances to pull the cards you want from packs are slim to none. The thrill of opening cards is why you wouldn't want pure dust though. There's always that chance that you get a legendary in a pack which is thrilling even for those with massive collections containing nearly every card.
Soooooo you do see why it can be discouraging or you don't?
I'm saying it's completely a mental thing and doesn't actually affect anyone who has a reasonable collection or no collection at all (only a very specific sub group of people). Try using the quote function though. I'm not sure if you are replying or not.
1) It's the best format.
2) If you really are F2P then you still need original, GvG and TGT packs.
3) You don't have to be great at arena to average 6 wins. I do and I know I'm no pro.
seriously. I don't even do it anymore. I thought we were going to get to pick the pack.
Say "Wow" for RNG!
Games don't make money if players aren't enjoying them.
That's true, but players are enjoying Hearthstone, and the change to arena will likely help that because it is a better system than what we had before. It may not be the system that everyone wants, but it's not going to lower the enjoyment that the players were having before the change.
There is a percentages of players chart that shows all the arena win percentages. You guys may be good at arena but based on the stats you're advising others to arena so you can get easy wins. 12 wins was like rank 5 and higher 2% of player base. I only do arena if I feel like playing 3-9 games and getting a pack and stuff. The experience varies wildly call me a scrub or bad player with my 6-3 drafts or 1-3's they can happen. Sometimes I'd rather just use my gold on a pack or two other times I draft. I will say it gets old playing against Mage 80% of the time or paladin now, many get broken draft options. You get a good class and a decent to good draft you can still get rekt by bad start/draw and or insane card pool of opponents as well as the usual factors.
great for new players is patent bull s hit.
Knowledge and experience goes a long way and frankly you make the 5 win average sound bad but percentage of gross players entering arena it's very good mathematically. It's not legend in ranked constructed equivalent like most of you 'lite arena players but don't try to fool anyone that even trading your 150 gold for 2 packs, 1 random for your hour or two of time is a non decision.
“Name dropping is not a good thing to do. Robert DeNiro told me that." - Bob Saget
You forgot to factor the gold you're not getting by playing arena instead of constructed (10g per 3 wins, 100g cap per day). Constructed games tend to be quicker, but win-rates are lower, so probably wins per hour is about the same, I would guess. So if you're getting 7 wins per 1.5 hours in arena, we can assume you'd be getting about that in constructed. 7 wins = ~23 gold, or little less than 1/4 of a pack. If we're saying TGT packs are worth ~300 dust that translates to ~75 dust. 130 - 75 = 55 dust per hour in arena vs playing constructed. Then there's the end-season reward, 500+ dust for reaching rank 5 or higher, which we can say is another 10 dust per hour, bringing arena profit down to 45 dpr over constructed.
So yeah, I guess there is still technically a reason to play arena, but it's quite a meager one. The real problem, as I see it, is that because card-collecting efficiency is way down, people will have less gold saved up for future expansions (cards, gold, and dust are all effectively interchangeable, just different ways of measuring a player's resources). So even though this might not seem like a big deal right now, next expansion or the one after that it definitely will be. Hearthstone has done a pretty good job up until now of balancing f2p vs p2w, but now I think that balance has been thrown out of whack with the most efficient f2p method of collecting cards being severely gimped. I know there's a number of players who wouldn't mind a p2w model, but there's a far greater number who would.
I feel like the picking of which pack you would like would be a much better format, but most of the players don't have every card in any set so this was their solution, to give random packs. And arena is definitely the way to go if you can manage to go infinite runs. You are getting good gold and a pack for a reasonably fun time.
Iron Juggernaut
I don't think the random packs reward is the biggest problem, it's just the arena reward in general. I'm an infinite F2P arena player, I don't buy packs and I don't craft cards (got over 100k dust saved up) but I still have most of the normal cards and a ton of golden cards from just the arena rewards. I'm only happy with 8+ wins cause that's when you can get golden cards as a reward, but even at that win rate you can get normal rares or epics which is a joke. OK so let's say you managed to get 11-12 wins, well too bad, your reward is most of the time something like 400 gold and 1-2 packs which is completely useless for me. I don't need gold and packs very rarely give me any new cards, only TGT packs have a decent chance of doing so. The arena reward likes to throw golden commons at you now and then but once you've gotten like 50% of the golden commons as well things just get frustrating when you get your 9th golden copy of a card. I mean it was bad already pre-TGT but now with random packs it feels like I'm just wasting time cause finishing a 12 win run doesn't take just a few minutes.
So here's what I think is a good solution for arena rewards:
1. Instead of giving out random cards, let the player choose between like 3 cards of the same rarity that you were rewarded
2. Remove non-golden cards cause people are gonna get em all from packs anyway at some point. I mean the season rank rewards are all golden cards so why not?
3. Give out more pure dust, preferably instead of stuff like non-golden cards cause the amount of dust you get right now is laughable
4. And most obviously let the player choose which pack he wants, it's not fun opening packs when you have 99% of the cards from that set
TLDR; Getting a full golden collection as a F2P player is not possible anymore with the current reward system, I know me and a few other arena players were not that far away from getting a full collection at one point, but now with TGT and more sets coming out faster than you can collect dust I've realized there's just no point trying anymore, even if you're playing arena all day like a mad man it won't happen.
^ I don't think Blizzard really cares about people like you (who have a massive collection and are infinite). Most players are not in the same position as you either.