My free run basically confirmed everything I've been hearing.
Nothing like taking the smallest possible sample size and assuming your experience is universal. Because that's not an incredibly basic logic fallacy.
Along the same lines, I played five games of Standard ladder and played against three Pirate Warriors and two Control Paladins. How come there are only TWO CLASSES in this stupid meta?
My free run basically confirmed everything I've been hearing.
Nothing like taking the smallest possible sample size and assuming your experience is universal. Because that's not an incredibly basic logic fallacy.
Along the same lines, I played five games of Standard ladder and played against three Pirate Warriors and two Control Paladins. How come there are only TWO CLASSES in this stupid meta?
I understand that one Arena run is statistically irrelevant, you smug twat. Your post is actually the complete opposite of what I said. In fact, I took my impression from a variety of sources, all of whom play a LOT of Arena, plus actual statistical data showing that the win rate of Paladin is through the roof right now. My post was intended to convey that my completely anecdotal experience matched that impression.
None of these statements conflict with my assertion that Arena takes a great deal of skill. Suggesting that people who play only a single round won't realize that is a truism for literally any game you can name, in any mode - video game, sport, board game, card game, etc. I agree with you entirely that people who judge it that way are foolishly jumping to conclusions based on barely any data.
The best part of arena is for new players don't suffer playing with basic stuff vs a complete Tier 1 meta netdeck, it is by far the best way to get a playable collection, after you have the collection the constructed is more interesting than arena.
Yes and new players have memorised every card in their hand. They have watched every Disguised Toast video and know every interaction. They know every concept related to TCG. They know how to read hand even when the cards are offered randomly. Of course they know that they wont be getting what they want in their next pack. Of course new players know everything.
Arena takes skill in the long run. However, the reason I (and many others I presume) dislike it, is because compared to constructed there's higher highs and lower lows. What I mean by that is, it feels great when you draft a solid deck and go 12-0, but it also feels REALLY shitty to invest 150 gold, get a crap deck and then get decimated 3 times in a row by a simply superior deck with insane cards. In constructed I feel like unless I manage to go on a massive loss streak I don't get upset much but in arena, losing even one match against a godly deck just feels bad, like you had absolutely 0 chance because you didn't draft the right cards.
Many people are probably shocked that the meta shifted from Gadgetzan Kabal/control classes to heavier value generating decklists on average. Definitely the top-deck turns are more impacting when decks are heavier. The skill should come from knowing when to put pressure on face (I know, the place right?) to prevent those BS topdecks. But that's going to take more time/runs to master than in other metas
I think you played the game well except maybe for turn 10. What's your reasoning for not playing the snail there? Seems pretty strong on this board. Also, I would have preferred the Volcanosaur over the Bog Creeper in that spot.
Thanks!
he already had a 1/1 on board and just needed 1 damage to clear my gastropod. So, I thought that I should play my Taunt first to avoid unnecessary damage and then on the next turn I could play Volcanosaur + Gastropod. Who knew he had 2 Dinosize! I was expecting max 1 Dinosize because he floated mana on turn 8. But then i thought he just had Bog Creeper + some other situational spell, that's why he floated mana
Now if you complain the class you play is "bad" at arena...have you tried playing "better" class? Do you went from 2 win to 11 win?
Your opponents also presented the same randomness as you do. They just try their best in picking good card for their decks and playing them out.
IE RNG Not picking "good" cards. Since you can only choose from 3 which all could be shit.
Like i said 90% rng 10% skill.
I honestly believe it's more a 60/40 (luck/skill) split at high levels of play. Fact is no matter how good you are, if you get a bad draft it's going to hurt. Class is a big part as well but a well drafted "bad" class can still often get into the higher win tiers and further with good play. It's like any draft set up in any card game ever. Block drafts can be even more brutal in MTG, and so it's not everyones bag, and that is cool. But I won't pretend that "luck" doesn't play a large role in it.
Ehh maybe. Things you can control are when to attack, what to attack (ie when to go face or trade), what cards you did pick from the 3 or what cards you put in your deck if you're playing constructed, where to place your minion, What cards to pick from a discover, what order you want to play cards, and when to play a spell or a minion.
Did I forget anything? Most of that requires "skill" the rest is just pure rng at best over 20% is skill I guess.
You can absolutely play around cards as well. There are a number of solid strategies to keep in mind. For example, when against mage basically assume he always has meteor and position your minions appropriately. In situations where you are winning the board and are ahead on life you can play around cards that could swing the battle in your opponents favor like MC tech, only keep three minions on board if you have a solid enough lead. The skill in arena comes down to knowing your opponents entire card pool they could have pulled from instead of just their deck and being able to look at a situation and say "what could they possibly have that could turn this around on me, or what could they possibly have to keep me from stabilizing.
Saying "the 3 cards you put in your deck" is true but vastly over simplified. The answer is not always to pick the highest rated card but also to stay aware of what synergies you have and what synergies you can build towards. Sometimes picking the lower rated card will give you far better synergy. etc etc.
There is a legit reason why good players will average a much higher win ratios than those who either aren't as good at arena (drafting and the knowing the arena meta). It because skill does come into play. You just need a large enough sample size to see it. The best arena player in the world has undoubtedly been randomed out of a run before. But that one run won't be indicative of their overall skill just their luck for that run. This is why I say 60/40. Because even the best arena player can just simply loose to pure luck and go 0/3. That really shouldn't be possible unless the luck factor was simply greater than skill factor, which it most certainly is.
I think the issue (and it's a valid one) isn't the drafting per se'. Honestly random drafting is a tried and true form of playing CCG. The issue is HS itself already has a TON Of randomness in it. So much so when you add random drafting to an already random game you have a situation where luck is the greater deciding factor in most games.
Arena wasn't this crap though.Before the changes(standard and more legendaries) was great.If you were good ,you could build your collection really fast and was my favourite mode.With ungoro the situation became even worse.
As someone who had 5.8 wins on average over more than 600 arena runs (arena tracker) i can safely say you that you are right.Ignore those ''immapro'' ''gitgud'' 12 wins on average dudes.Well on the one hand you have players like kripp and hafu who get rekt so often since the changes and on the other nobodies in hearthpwn who claim to achieve more than 7 wins on average...Guess who lies
Now if you complain the class you play is "bad" at arena...have you tried playing "better" class? Do you went from 2 win to 11 win?
Your opponents also presented the same randomness as you do. They just try their best in picking good card for their decks and playing them out.
IE RNG Not picking "good" cards. Since you can only choose from 3 which all could be shit.
Like i said 90% rng 10% skill.
I honestly believe it's more a 60/40 (luck/skill) split at high levels of play. Fact is no matter how good you are, if you get a bad draft it's going to hurt. Class is a big part as well but a well drafted "bad" class can still often get into the higher win tiers and further with good play. It's like any draft set up in any card game ever. Block drafts can be even more brutal in MTG, and so it's not everyones bag, and that is cool. But I won't pretend that "luck" doesn't play a large role in it.
Ehh maybe. Things you can control are when to attack, what to attack (ie when to go face or trade), what cards you did pick from the 3 or what cards you put in your deck if you're playing constructed, where to place your minion, What cards to pick from a discover, what order you want to play cards, and when to play a spell or a minion.
Did I forget anything? Most of that requires "skill" the rest is just pure rng at best over 20% is skill I guess.
You can absolutely play around cards as well. There are a number of solid strategies to keep in mind. For example, when against mage basically assume he always has meteor and position your minions appropriately. In situations where you are winning the board and are ahead on life you can play around cards that could swing the battle in your opponents favor like MC tech, only keep three minions on board if you have a solid enough lead. The skill in arena comes down to knowing your opponents entire card pool they could have pulled from instead of just their deck and being able to look at a situation and say "what could they possibly have that could turn this around on me, or what could they possibly have to keep me from stabilizing.
Saying "the 3 cards you put in your deck" is true but vastly over simplified. The answer is not always to pick the highest rated card but also to stay aware of what synergies you have and what synergies you can build towards. Sometimes picking the lower rated card will give you far better synergy. etc etc.
There is a legit reason why good players will average a much higher win ratios than those who either aren't as good at arena (drafting and the knowing the arena meta). It because skill does come into play. You just need a large enough sample size to see it. The best arena player in the world has undoubtedly been randomed out of a run before. But that one run won't be indicative of their overall skill just their luck for that run. This is why I say 60/40. Because even the best arena player can just simply loose to pure luck and go 0/3. That really shouldn't be possible unless the luck factor was simply greater than skill factor, which it most certainly is.
I think the issue (and it's a valid one) isn't the drafting per se'. Honestly random drafting is a tried and true form of playing CCG. The issue is HS itself already has a TON Of randomness in it. So much so when you add random drafting to an already random game you have a situation where luck is the greater deciding factor in most games.
You're right. The game is still overwhelmed by rng though, even if you're truly skilled you can easily get destroyed by a semi new player who is luckier than you. All these idiots saying git gud know nothing about this game... Even if it's 40% Skill the 60% is overwhelming there's so much shit you can't control, no amount of skill could help you.
Now if you complain the class you play is "bad" at arena...have you tried playing "better" class? Do you went from 2 win to 11 win?
Your opponents also presented the same randomness as you do. They just try their best in picking good card for their decks and playing them out.
IE RNG Not picking "good" cards. Since you can only choose from 3 which all could be shit.
Like i said 90% rng 10% skill.
I honestly believe it's more a 60/40 (luck/skill) split at high levels of play. Fact is no matter how good you are, if you get a bad draft it's going to hurt. Class is a big part as well but a well drafted "bad" class can still often get into the higher win tiers and further with good play. It's like any draft set up in any card game ever. Block drafts can be even more brutal in MTG, and so it's not everyones bag, and that is cool. But I won't pretend that "luck" doesn't play a large role in it.
Ehh maybe. Things you can control are when to attack, what to attack (ie when to go face or trade), what cards you did pick from the 3 or what cards you put in your deck if you're playing constructed, where to place your minion, What cards to pick from a discover, what order you want to play cards, and when to play a spell or a minion.
Did I forget anything? Most of that requires "skill" the rest is just pure rng at best over 20% is skill I guess.
You can absolutely play around cards as well. There are a number of solid strategies to keep in mind. For example, when against mage basically assume he always has meteor and position your minions appropriately. In situations where you are winning the board and are ahead on life you can play around cards that could swing the battle in your opponents favor like MC tech, only keep three minions on board if you have a solid enough lead. The skill in arena comes down to knowing your opponents entire card pool they could have pulled from instead of just their deck and being able to look at a situation and say "what could they possibly have that could turn this around on me, or what could they possibly have to keep me from stabilizing.
Saying "the 3 cards you put in your deck" is true but vastly over simplified. The answer is not always to pick the highest rated card but also to stay aware of what synergies you have and what synergies you can build towards. Sometimes picking the lower rated card will give you far better synergy. etc etc.
There is a legit reason why good players will average a much higher win ratios than those who either aren't as good at arena (drafting and the knowing the arena meta). It because skill does come into play. You just need a large enough sample size to see it. The best arena player in the world has undoubtedly been randomed out of a run before. But that one run won't be indicative of their overall skill just their luck for that run. This is why I say 60/40. Because even the best arena player can just simply loose to pure luck and go 0/3. That really shouldn't be possible unless the luck factor was simply greater than skill factor, which it most certainly is.
I think the issue (and it's a valid one) isn't the drafting per se'. Honestly random drafting is a tried and true form of playing CCG. The issue is HS itself already has a TON Of randomness in it. So much so when you add random drafting to an already random game you have a situation where luck is the greater deciding factor in most games.
You're right. The game is still overwhelmed by rng though, even if you're truly skilled you can easily get destroyed by a semi new player who is luckier than you. All these idiots saying git gud know nothing about this game... Even if it's 40% Skill the 60% is overwhelming there's some much shit you can't control no amount of skill could help you.
Pretty much. Saying "git gud" isn't helpful. You have to play A LOT of arena and in the meantime lose out on gold generation while you "git gud". It's simply not that easy. Even after putting that much time into playing (and gold/money) to get to that point be prepared to just get randomed out sometimes in the most frustrating of ways.
Now if you complain the class you play is "bad" at arena...have you tried playing "better" class? Do you went from 2 win to 11 win?
Your opponents also presented the same randomness as you do. They just try their best in picking good card for their decks and playing them out.
IE RNG Not picking "good" cards. Since you can only choose from 3 which all could be shit.
Like i said 90% rng 10% skill.
I honestly believe it's more a 60/40 (luck/skill) split at high levels of play. Fact is no matter how good you are, if you get a bad draft it's going to hurt. Class is a big part as well but a well drafted "bad" class can still often get into the higher win tiers and further with good play. It's like any draft set up in any card game ever. Block drafts can be even more brutal in MTG, and so it's not everyones bag, and that is cool. But I won't pretend that "luck" doesn't play a large role in it.
Ehh maybe. Things you can control are when to attack, what to attack (ie when to go face or trade), what cards you did pick from the 3 or what cards you put in your deck if you're playing constructed, where to place your minion, What cards to pick from a discover, what order you want to play cards, and when to play a spell or a minion.
Did I forget anything? Most of that requires "skill" the rest is just pure rng at best over 20% is skill I guess.
You can absolutely play around cards as well. There are a number of solid strategies to keep in mind. For example, when against mage basically assume he always has meteor and position your minions appropriately. In situations where you are winning the board and are ahead on life you can play around cards that could swing the battle in your opponents favor like MC tech, only keep three minions on board if you have a solid enough lead. The skill in arena comes down to knowing your opponents entire card pool they could have pulled from instead of just their deck and being able to look at a situation and say "what could they possibly have that could turn this around on me, or what could they possibly have to keep me from stabilizing.
Saying "the 3 cards you put in your deck" is true but vastly over simplified. The answer is not always to pick the highest rated card but also to stay aware of what synergies you have and what synergies you can build towards. Sometimes picking the lower rated card will give you far better synergy. etc etc.
There is a legit reason why good players will average a much higher win ratios than those who either aren't as good at arena (drafting and the knowing the arena meta). It because skill does come into play. You just need a large enough sample size to see it. The best arena player in the world has undoubtedly been randomed out of a run before. But that one run won't be indicative of their overall skill just their luck for that run. This is why I say 60/40. Because even the best arena player can just simply loose to pure luck and go 0/3. That really shouldn't be possible unless the luck factor was simply greater than skill factor, which it most certainly is.
I think the issue (and it's a valid one) isn't the drafting per se'. Honestly random drafting is a tried and true form of playing CCG. The issue is HS itself already has a TON Of randomness in it. So much so when you add random drafting to an already random game you have a situation where luck is the greater deciding factor in most games.
You're right. The game is still overwhelmed by rng though, even if you're truly skilled you can easily get destroyed by a semi new player who is luckier than you. All these idiots saying git gud know nothing about this game... Even if it's 40% Skill the 60% is overwhelming there's some much shit you can't control no amount of skill could help you.
Pretty much. Saying "git gud" isn't helpful. You have to play A LOT of arena and in the meantime lose out on gold generation while you "git gud". It's simply not that easy. Even after putting that much time into playing (and gold/money) to get to that point be prepared to just get randomed out sometimes in the most frustrating of ways.
So true.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
G=Good B=Bad Do you see the pattern? Every second expansion is always trash.
Funny to see salty people complaining about a free arena... Go back to play casual if you can't deal with the glory of the arena - the mighty colosseum.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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how is blizzard forcing you ? you're not obliged to participate in the event or play arena.
god, another pathetic babyrage thread.
also, git good.
I may be terrible at arena, but it's amusing when people come there and think it's like constructed. I can actually pick up some wins.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Wait, so your "refutation" of my point is to agree with me entirely? Cool. Thanks for the support!
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
None of these statements conflict with my assertion that Arena takes a great deal of skill. Suggesting that people who play only a single round won't realize that is a truism for literally any game you can name, in any mode - video game, sport, board game, card game, etc. I agree with you entirely that people who judge it that way are foolishly jumping to conclusions based on barely any data.
Check out my entry for this week's Card Design Competition. Vote for it if you like it.
Check out my entry for this week's Card Design Competition. Vote for it if you like it.
Hello Guys! An Arena noob here, but I want to improve. Please point out the mistake I made in this game:
https://hsreplay.net/replay/8anB55aacwurzCuwpCJ6FV
Check out my entry for this week's Card Design Competition. Vote for it if you like it.
Check out my entry for this week's Card Design Competition. Vote for it if you like it.
Arena takes skill in the long run. However, the reason I (and many others I presume) dislike it, is because compared to constructed there's higher highs and lower lows. What I mean by that is, it feels great when you draft a solid deck and go 12-0, but it also feels REALLY shitty to invest 150 gold, get a crap deck and then get decimated 3 times in a row by a simply superior deck with insane cards. In constructed I feel like unless I manage to go on a massive loss streak I don't get upset much but in arena, losing even one match against a godly deck just feels bad, like you had absolutely 0 chance because you didn't draft the right cards.
Many people are probably shocked that the meta shifted from Gadgetzan Kabal/control classes to heavier value generating decklists on average. Definitely the top-deck turns are more impacting when decks are heavier. The skill should come from knowing when to put pressure on face (I know, the place right?) to prevent those BS topdecks. But that's going to take more time/runs to master than in other metas
"Put 'em all in", they said. "You gon' be ballin", they said.
Check out my entry for this week's Card Design Competition. Vote for it if you like it.
Arena wasn't this crap though.Before the changes(standard and more legendaries) was great.If you were good ,you could build your collection really fast and was my favourite mode.With ungoro the situation became even worse.
As someone who had 5.8 wins on average over more than 600 arena runs (arena tracker) i can safely say you that you are right.Ignore those ''immapro'' ''gitgud'' 12 wins on average dudes.Well on the one hand you have players like kripp and hafu who get rekt so often since the changes and on the other nobodies in hearthpwn who claim to achieve more than 7 wins on average...Guess who lies
G=Good B=Bad Do you see the pattern? Every second expansion is always trash.
G: Goblins V Gnomes , Old Gods, unguro
B: TGT, gadgetzan, Knights (Unreleased so MAYBE)
G=Good B=Bad Do you see the pattern? Every second expansion is always trash.
G: Goblins V Gnomes , Old Gods, unguro
B: TGT, gadgetzan, Knights (Unreleased so MAYBE)
Just drafted a Mage. Took Malygos early in the draft. Was offered exactly 0 damage spells. Booo!
Funny to see salty people complaining about a free arena... Go back to play casual if you can't deal with the glory of the arena - the mighty colosseum.