Hearthpwn

So started playing the game again. BSM is about as bad to play against as I imagined. I don't know if it's broken but it's not a positive for the game for sure, I don't even think BSM players enjoy playing BSM. It's just there to grind out ladder but it doesn't lead to any fun interactions. My frustration comes from people to support that deck. The choice they're making is tarnishing the whole experience for everyone. I know that's on me, that I should just accept it but it's tough. I have a hard time not giving in being aggravating to them since they cheapen the whole experience. Need to meditate more!

Quote from Zizka >>

So started playing the game again. BSM is about as bad to play against as I imagined. I don't know if it's broken but it's not a positive for the game for sure, I don't even think BSM players enjoy playing BSM. It's just there to grind out ladder but it doesn't lead to any fun interactions. My frustration comes from people to support that deck. The choice they're making is tarnishing the whole experience for everyone. I know that's on me, that I should just accept it but it's tough. I have a hard time not giving in being aggravating to them since they cheapen the whole experience. Need to meditate more!

 At this point the meta just prove my point and people will still said is fine. But them against when CUBELOCK was nerf baaaaaack-back in the times were HS was at the hands of Ben Brode (probably with all his mistakes still the best lead for the game) the reason of the nerf was not exactly that the deck was the TOP DOG but that has the potential of become the best deck in the format every few games in a row and the experience againts the deck was...well if anyone here played against that deck as i did you will remember why it was nerf.

I belive the people that still talk about "oh but is not as good" "oh is not as broken" "oh you just dont play the right decks" forgets that...this deck still can play 4 Tsunamis IN A ROW and still hav the ability to cast more. The deck still has the ability of generate as much of a high roll as Druid with the 10 cost minion included one or two turns early.

In general you are right in your mind-set as well as me. The deck is VERY powerfull and Mages even after the nerf is still one of the strongest classes on the meta. Shaman is literally dealing with all the mage counters and all the aggro decks are suffering because Renathal is back until the new expansion. Yogg in a Box, Tsunami, Galactic Projection, Sunset. Now they run all the 4 big spells because as anyone could guess Aggro is ALWAYS too weak to being relevant more than a month or two.

Quote from Zizka >>

 

Quote from HeilKise >>

Quote from Zizka >>

So started playing the game again. BSM is about as bad to play against as I imagined. I don't know if it's broken but it's not a positive for the game for sure, I don't even think BSM players enjoy playing BSM. It's just there to grind out ladder but it doesn't lead to any fun interactions. My frustration comes from people to support that deck. The choice they're making is tarnishing the whole experience for everyone. I know that's on me, that I should just accept it but it's tough. I have a hard time not giving in being aggravating to them since they cheapen the whole experience. Need to meditate more!

 At this point the meta just prove my point and people will still said is fine. But them against when CUBELOCK was nerf baaaaaack-back in the times were HS was at the hands of Ben Brode (probably with all his mistakes still the best lead for the game) the reason of the nerf was not exactly that the deck was the TOP DOG but that has the potential of become the best deck in the format every few games in a row and the experience againts the deck was...well if anyone here played against that deck as i did you will remember why it was nerf.

I belive the people that still talk about "oh but is not as good" "oh is not as broken" "oh you just dont play the right decks" forgets that...this deck still can play 4 Tsunamis IN A ROW and still hav the ability to cast more. The deck still has the ability of generate as much of a high roll as Druid with the 10 cost minion included one or two turns early.

In general you are right in your mind-set as well as me. The deck is VERY powerfull and Mages even after the nerf is still one of the strongest classes on the meta. Shaman is literally dealing with all the mage counters and all the aggro decks are suffering because Renathal is back until the new expansion. Yogg in a Box, Tsunami, Galactic Projection, Sunset. Now they run all the 4 big spells because as anyone could guess Aggro is ALWAYS too weak to being relevant more than a month or two.

 Yes and yes.  Its nice when people "get it".  Despite what the "Muh Stuhtisticks" gang says, the deck is horrifically broken and obscene.  A 7 year old can figure this out.  Why is it broken?  Easy: You can abuse massive mana cheat over and over and over.  And then you cast them all AGAIN later, just in case your opponent had a nut draw and actually was able to fight back.  It is not a high roll deck either which is another false claim coming from the BSM peanut gallery.   The "high roll" happens way more often than not.  These are cold, hard facts.

I just wish the game designers would "make mana great again".  Make it so extremely powerful 8-10 mana cards can NOT be played until the later part of the game when they were designed to be played.  This is so duh.  I cannot believe they dont see this is a problem.  Its the same problem we have had for a while now with Druid & now Warrior ramping to like 15+ mana.  What.  The. !@*(?  Why is this allowed?  Delete this stuff and lets play the game right and actually have to engage our brains. 

Well, the situation is quite stupid. Old BSM after nerfs was fine. New, refined BSM with added Renathal is op. But what can be done when what makes BSM op (at least partly) is just temporary? Nerf it right for now, it might become dead after Renathal leaves and it's not a good solution as quite a lot of players enjoy this gameplay (sure, nobody at this thread, but this does not really matter). I am quite sure they did not expect Renathal to be an asset for BSM and we might have to deal with this meta until next expansion. And it will be getting worse, Mage's popularity has not yet reached its peak.

I wish they just nerfed Tsunami, I don't think there is much that can be done to the mana cheat foundation of the deck, too many nerfs would be needed, so pay off cards should be targeted. So let's say 8 mana Tsunami with 3 elementals might be just enough.

I feel like the addition of new Trinkets sorta watered it down and now its even harder to find the trinkets you are looking for. And it was hard already especially if you wanted to go ZOO.

Quote from emkarab >>

Well, the situation is quite stupid. Old BSM after nerfs was fine. New, refined BSM with added Renathal is op. But what can be done when what makes BSM op (at least partly) is just temporary? Nerf it right for now, it might become dead after Renathal leaves and it's not a good solution as quite a lot of players enjoy this gameplay (sure, nobody at this thread, but this does not really matter). I am quite sure they did not expect Renathal to be an asset for BSM and we might have to deal with this meta until next expansion. And it will be getting worse, Mage's popularity has not yet reached its peak.

I wish they just nerfed Tsunami, I don't think there is much that can be done to the mana cheat foundation of the deck, too many nerfs would be needed, so pay off cards should be targeted. So let's say 8 mana Tsunami with 3 elementals might be just enough.

 Not enough.  remove freezing and make them just 3/6 elementals.  Three 3/6's NO freeze.  And, get rid of that card that plays a non-Rogue card for you.  We cant have this garbage being repeated 17 times a $%^^& game.   Just delete that card.  Its dumb.

You know, for a deck which isn't that great, every single mage at D5 (without exception) is BSM, they don't even try other archetypes. Identical to a single card. This makes me suspicious of people trying to downplay the deck to be honest.

Has the deck been buffed recently or something? 

i think it's safe to say they know nothing about their game and how to make nerfs/adjustments. just comply. rip anything highlander cater to op mage etc

Well, with my Highlander Shaman I'm climbing at about 1,5k legend, so I wouldn't agree any highlander is rip...

And BSM is much more popular at Diamond 1 than Diamond 5 (which is understandable, most of the times people who struggle with their favourites go the best deck to get these last few stars to legend). At Diamond 5 it is about 80-85% of the Mage, at Diamond 1 it is surely more than 95%.

But there are some positive signs too. One thing is that the Mage stopped rising in popularity and did not go over 25% overall, it seems to be getting outperformed by Rainbow Shaman, also new Tourist Paladin build that incorporates Earthen package might be quite a new meta contender.

By the way, could you provide a sample of your games against BSM while running Warlock/wheel? I run wheel as well but never ever come even close to turn 8, let alone survive the turn after. I know you've mentioned being at platinum but even then, a BSM can't really misplay so much as to allow you to reach t8, it seems like a pretty straightforward deck to pilot (although I admit I've never played it). 

Better yet, if you could provide some HS Replay of your games against BSM, I'd like to watch. Maybe you're just a much better player than I am and I'm just playing this deck badly against BSM. I've tried to have big minions before turn 5 but the only way I can see this happening is having to wait up to at least turn 5. The location on t4 and darkside alley on t5. That is, of course, provided you manage to draw both during the first five turns.

You start with 3 cards.

t1: pass

t2: hero power+draw = 5 cards

t3: hero power+draw = 7 cards

t4: draw - 1 location = 7 cards

t5: draw (8 cards) -1 dark side alley = 2x 7/7 minions. Ok, then you might be able to survive the onslaught of tsunami. 

Now keep in mind what I've described above is the only example I can think of where Warlock could survive. 

I've tried playing smaller minions before t5 (one each turn, even the 3x 1-1 one) and it does nothing. By the time t5 turns around, BSM player has already gotten rid of them with his weapon. 

As for domino, each elemental is 3/6, 4 of them. 3/6 3/6 3/6 3/6. You'll end up with 3/4 3/3 3/2 and 3/1, this means all of them area still on board for the following turn for another *likely* 12 damage to face. I don't see this as being an answer, not by a long shot. Same problem with table flip, which is even worse as it leaves four 3/3 on board. 

Lifesteal drinks is painfully slow at 3 mana. With four minions at 3/6 (24 health total), I don't see this doing much of anything. You might clear one the turn after and gain 6 life (again provided you have it on hand). You then just get hit for 9 the turn after (+the 3 dmg weapon). 

As for defile, I'd say it's most useless of all. You'd need the water elementals to be synch in health (1 apart) in order to clear the board, I've never had this opportunity.

The reason I'm saying this is because I run all of those: table flip, defile, health drink, domino in order to deal with that board and I can never pull it off. Fair enough, I've spared myself playing against BSM recently and just auto-concede when I meet one but before I'm talking about before I did. I used to try to play against them, thinking ''maybe one has the balls not to play BSM'' but once you get the panner or miracles salesman on turn 1, you know what you're in for.

I should say that I play a reno warlock deck. So you might say I should just play pain warlock instead. 

Here's the thing: I have no interest in playing pain warlock just like everyone else is. It looks boring as fuck and so it insanity warlock for that matter. I'd be a hyprocrite to complain that there's no deck variety while myself sticking to the most overplayed decks out there.

BSM is meta-warping in a way very few other decks are. It's the only deck I can think of where I start a game with a very good chance of having to agency as to what's going to happen. With all the other decks, I feel like I have *some* say on what's going to happen (I can very often outplay other people using a admitedly weaker deck) but with BSM, there's like a short circuit, it doesn't even feel like the same game to some extent. 

That's the reason why this deck gets so much vitriol even if it might not be a t1 deck, because you feel powerless against it whereas against other matchups you can tell yourself: ''Yeah, I could've played better here, next time I'll try this'' and learn and become a better player. You can wait until you reno for the druid to put on his dragon nest because you know the meta and most players stick to it to a t. That's what's fun, being knowledgeable about the meta and using your knowledge of archetypes in other to tailor your gameplan. 

When it comes to BSM, knowing the meta doesn't matter.

Anyways, I'm open to be proven wrong. Share your warlock HS Replay against mage. Maybe it's on me. Maybe I'm just playing the game wrong. Let's find out. 

Oh and by the way:

Look at the bottom left corner and tell me what you see. 

I don't have any deck trackers or anything installed I'm afraid. If I could provide any data it wouldn't be very relevant at this point anyhow, I assume, for a few reasons. 

It was pre nerfs and pre the latest patch, I was  relatively low rank/MMR, I hadn't played Standard at all the previous month (so no star bonus I think?), small sample size. 

From bronze whatever - Platinum 1 I had a very high win rate over few evenings, BSM was the most popular archetype and wasn't giving me any particular problems. I conceded some DK games after a run of losses I never considered that with BSM, and when I stopped playing it was Shaman and Paladin decks that I felt I had no chance against. Most or all of this was pre-nerf.

I wrote out a longer thing but I was just repeating what I said in my earlier post so what's the point? Location / dark pact / giant / darkest day to create early big minions that can absorb the tsunamis, life drink  + domino effect for cleaning up damaged boards, Sargeras / Twisting / Symphony for late game. There's no technique I've figured out that hasn't occurred to you, the list's below, it was working for me. 

I very much doubt I'm just a better player than you.

I understand people get PTSD from an OP deck and when the solution is a 1 mana increase that brings the winrate down by 5% they still want blood. I remember, for example, when they nerfed Pirate Quest Warrior 25 times and it was a tier 3 deck and people were still calling for Nerfs/Removals/the developers to be sacked etc. 

When I see people Mageing silly, rude, arguments (for example, lashing out at other players or the devs, demanding the deck that was nerfed yesterday MUST be nerfed again today and if you don't agree you're probably the kind of person that plays the deck I don't like and I don't need to look at your statistics because you're probably silver and I'm legend....) then I like to poke fun at these people. Because they're being funny. 

Not saying you do that. 

For what it's worth BSM looks like it's in a bad place again at the moment and is probably about to be nerfed and that's probably good? But I haven't played for the last couple of weeks.  I'm a Duos guy now. 

Here's the deck if you get rank 1 legend or whatever give me a shout out. 

### Wheel Warlock

# Class: Warlock
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Pegasus
#
# 2x (1) Gul'dan's Gift
# 2x (2) Defile
# 2x (2) Elementium Geode
# 2x (2) Endgame
# 2x (2) Thornveil Tentacle
# 2x (3) "Health" Drink
# 2x (3) Domino Effect
# 2x (3) Mortal Eradication
# 2x (4) Dark Alley Pact
# 2x (4) Forge of Wills
# 1x (4) Pop'gar the Putrid
# 1x (5) Symphony of Sins
# 1x (6) Loken, Jailer of Yogg-Saron
# 1x (7) Marin the Manager
# 1x (8) Wheel of DEATH!!!
# 1x (9) Sargeras, the Destroyer
# 1x (0) Zilliax Deluxe 3000
# 1x (0) Zilliax Deluxe 3000
# 1x (4) Virus Module
# 1x (5) Perfect Module
# 2x (12) Mountain Giant
# 1x (30) Fanottem, Lord of the Opera
#
AAECAb3yBAj5xgWs6QWm+wXo/wWAngbHpAbqswa6wQYLyOsF9fgF+vkF1/oFo6AG8KkGlbMGnMEGk8sG3uYG7uYGAAED9LMGx6QG97MGx6QG6N4Gx6QGAAA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

This is wrong

Lol, my prediction about Tsunami getting nerfed was actually right. Wondering if they'll change it the way I imagined too.

No nerf to any Paladin card is worrying though. Sure, Yogg and Marin are played in Tourist Paladin, but they are not core. Hope Paladin won't become next meta tyrant.

I think this is probably the round of nerfs I've ever seen since playing the game.

Word missing in your first sentence I think. The what round of nerfs?

Uh I can load up the deck and see how it performs post nerfs and buffs at Platinum 10 if you like, I'd need to install a deck tracker and I play on my phone a lot. 

There's 4 Wheel Warlocks on HSReplay with positive win rates, the specific one I Was using doesn't seem to be there any more but that'd be where I got it from. "My" version didn't have Table Flip or Renethal (obviously because he wasn't back yet). 

https://hsreplay.net/decks/warlock/#gameType=RANKED_STANDARD&archetypes=655

We may be talking at cross purposes slightly though. What are you hoping I'll  to prove? Do you think I'm lying about climbing to Platinum 1 with it last month, or that I was playing lots of spell mages before the spell mage nerf?

If I'm coming across as a fan of BSM or opposed to nerfs either in general or because the deck feels bad then I'm really failing to communicate. 

EDIT: I spent all that time answering and you removed your question. I'm responding to you saying that, to paraphrase, that deck I shared sucks. 

Are suddenly soaring through Legend with it and that's why you removed the question?

I don't think you're lying. I edited my message because I replied too quickly. My winrate is 44% and I'm still getting stomped by mage (just lost a game just now). I just want you to share your replay so I can see how you pull it off. That's it, no more, no less. If you don't want to, that's fine. 

Tomorrow's nerfs can't come to soon. I don't think I can remember the last time I despised a deck as much as BSM and the players who choose it. If you need BSM to reach legend, you haven't achieved anything. BSM is the *only* deck I can never beat (well I beat it once). What does that tell you about it I wonder.

Ok let me see how easy it is to get a deck tracker and up and running on my Mac I guess.

100% win rate first two games by the way. 

1st game was mech rogue, I had a perfect draw, he left exactly 5 health on board turn 5 and I had mortal eradication in hand.

2nd was game control priest I played Symphony of Remove Cards from your Opponent's Deck on turn 4 burned his Reno and he only managed to play 3 Aman'Thul. 

That's enough Hearthstone for now though. 

I meant vs BSM, not the other decks. So far, I can't play that deck. I'm getting stomped. I'm at 33% now. I was at 46% with reno warlock so maybe it's just a case that I can't play the deck you're playing. It's super slow for me. I just played against a mage, who got rid of my darkside alley with ease and just burned me to death. Mage is only class I wouldn't mind being removed from the game.